Honda has also annouced that they are developing a home fuelling station. The system would use natural gas to create hydrogen. They also have plans for this system to power your home.
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Honda makes first hydrogen cars
- Thread starter edesignuk
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Honda has also annouced that they are developing a home fuelling station. The system would use natural gas to create hydrogen. They also have plans for this system to power your home.
The exact reason it is only coming out in certain ares. There are very few Hydrogen refuel stations. And the technology is not completely developed, seeing that I know I would be more scared to re-fuel my car with hydrogen, seeing that it is way more explosive than gasoline.
But none the less a very cool car!
yeah. Laws of chemisty and themodynamics say NO not going to happen. Hydrogen is not the way of the future. It is nothing more than feel good.
We already are facing massive water shortages world wide including in the US. Where the hell do you think we are going to get the hydrogen from. Sure has hell not going to be water.
Water is already a very short to supply so no that is not the solution.
I won't go into a fully-fledged argument here, but even though I do agree that it is better for the environment in the short term, it isn't a good source of energy to take us into the future.
It is possible to get it either way. Have a look at the wiki article to read up on it.
I reckon what Toyota, Honda, Lexus and othe manufacturers are trying to do with hybrid cars (batteries + engine) is a nice idea, but in reality, it's really not that much better than the standard internal combustion engine. Hydrogen is a renewable, low cost, highly efficient, and plentiful fuel source. We already have the resources to create it without causing any post-manufacture pollution (solar panels and water). We have the resources to convert hydrogen into useable energy (hydrogen fuel cells). If the storage can be sorted out, we will be set for the future.
I wholeheartedly support what Honda is doing with the FCX.
Electric cars are the future. Though, liquid fuels will still have their role for a very long time to come.
I think that GM has the right idea when it comes to the Chevy Volt on the e-flex platform: an electric car with a fuel-generator attached. This platform can be adapted to use any liquid fuel.
Battery tech may not quite be up to task these days, but with the billions of dollars being invested, a solution is bound to come through that will work, and is affordable, for the average consumer.
The BIG BIG problem though, is where we're getting the electricity from in the first place. I cannot imagine that carbon capture and sequestration will ever work reliably enough to make coal clean. I do think that solar, wind, and hydropower will become economical enough for large scale use in the near future. Hopefully, this will happen before we build 50 more nuclear power plants.
DCBass
I think that GM has the right idea when it comes to the Chevy Volt on the e-flex platform: an electric car with a fuel-generator attached. This platform can be adapted to use any liquid fuel.
Battery tech may not quite be up to task these days, but with the billions of dollars being invested, a solution is bound to come through that will work, and is affordable, for the average consumer.
The BIG BIG problem though, is where we're getting the electricity from in the first place. I cannot imagine that carbon capture and sequestration will ever work reliably enough to make coal clean. I do think that solar, wind, and hydropower will become economical enough for large scale use in the near future. Hopefully, this will happen before we build 50 more nuclear power plants.
DCBass
Hydrogen is an energy storage system
Gasoline is an energy storage system
Lithium Ion battery is an energy storage system
A plug-in electric car with Lithium batteries, or an ultracapacitor, or whatever has the same objection as a Hydrogen fueled car -- the electricity has to be generated.
The gasoline powered car uses energy that was captured millions of years ago.
What's more key to the question is what happens when the energy is released from the storage system to power an individual car. The Gasoline (diesel, natural gas, etc) powered car emits CO, CO2, and a bunch of other byproducts of combustion.
The Hydrogen car emits H2O and some miscellaneous byproducts of high temperature catalysis using air.
The battery powered car emits nothing - but generates a thousand pounds of battery waste when the batteries need replacing.
While a power plant that generates electricity from oil or coal generates CO2 and other gases, because of the economies of scale, it can be orders of magnitude more efficient (and less polluting) than a small army of internal combustion engines generating the same amount of power. It's much easier and costs fewer resources to fit a power plant with pollution reducing technology than to fit 1,000,000 cars.
A coal fired powerplant generates on average 2 Lb of CO2 per Kilowatt-hour (the US average in 2000 for all types of powerplants is about 1.3 Lb/kWh)
An electric car consumes about 0.22 kWh/mi, which generated about .29 Lb./mi of CO2 back at the powerplant. Charging batteries and cracking water for H2 can be done with off-peak 'waste' electrical capacity.
A typical gasoline car at 30 MPG generates 223 g/km or .79 Lb/mi of CO2 - But those are highway miles on a relatively fuel efficient car. The battery or hydrogen electric consumes little or no power at idle, or in slow city traffic. The gasoline car still puts out significant amounts of CO2 at idle (zero MPG).
So an electric or hydrogen car generates roughly 1/3 the carbon of a gasoline powered car -- and that's without considering the carbon footprint of oil extraction, refining, and distribution -- which approximately doubles the carbon load. (you can't cost electricity with power plant emissions and not cost gasoline with refinery and oilfield emissions)
What we're really looking for is a low-emission production of energy, with very efficient transmission and storage, which can be deployed to cars (and other things) safely and conveniently, for power generation on demand, with little or no emissions in use.
Gasoline is popular because it is an energy dense storage, and the distribution system is so well established. IF the battery problem (deployment storage) can be solved, electric has a lot going for it, including distribution to about 99% of homes already in place. Hydrogen is a possible, IF the distribution and storage can be done effectively, and IF the energy density of hydrogen and the fuel cell is better than the density of batteries.
Gasoline is an energy storage system
Lithium Ion battery is an energy storage system
A plug-in electric car with Lithium batteries, or an ultracapacitor, or whatever has the same objection as a Hydrogen fueled car -- the electricity has to be generated.
The gasoline powered car uses energy that was captured millions of years ago.
What's more key to the question is what happens when the energy is released from the storage system to power an individual car. The Gasoline (diesel, natural gas, etc) powered car emits CO, CO2, and a bunch of other byproducts of combustion.
The Hydrogen car emits H2O and some miscellaneous byproducts of high temperature catalysis using air.
The battery powered car emits nothing - but generates a thousand pounds of battery waste when the batteries need replacing.
While a power plant that generates electricity from oil or coal generates CO2 and other gases, because of the economies of scale, it can be orders of magnitude more efficient (and less polluting) than a small army of internal combustion engines generating the same amount of power. It's much easier and costs fewer resources to fit a power plant with pollution reducing technology than to fit 1,000,000 cars.
A coal fired powerplant generates on average 2 Lb of CO2 per Kilowatt-hour (the US average in 2000 for all types of powerplants is about 1.3 Lb/kWh)
An electric car consumes about 0.22 kWh/mi, which generated about .29 Lb./mi of CO2 back at the powerplant. Charging batteries and cracking water for H2 can be done with off-peak 'waste' electrical capacity.
A typical gasoline car at 30 MPG generates 223 g/km or .79 Lb/mi of CO2 - But those are highway miles on a relatively fuel efficient car. The battery or hydrogen electric consumes little or no power at idle, or in slow city traffic. The gasoline car still puts out significant amounts of CO2 at idle (zero MPG).
So an electric or hydrogen car generates roughly 1/3 the carbon of a gasoline powered car -- and that's without considering the carbon footprint of oil extraction, refining, and distribution -- which approximately doubles the carbon load. (you can't cost electricity with power plant emissions and not cost gasoline with refinery and oilfield emissions)
What we're really looking for is a low-emission production of energy, with very efficient transmission and storage, which can be deployed to cars (and other things) safely and conveniently, for power generation on demand, with little or no emissions in use.
Gasoline is popular because it is an energy dense storage, and the distribution system is so well established. IF the battery problem (deployment storage) can be solved, electric has a lot going for it, including distribution to about 99% of homes already in place. Hydrogen is a possible, IF the distribution and storage can be done effectively, and IF the energy density of hydrogen and the fuel cell is better than the density of batteries.
Seriously, it only covers what, 71% of the Earth? We could always invest in a few more desalination plants
There are some hydrogen BMW 7 series that are being tested around where I live in California, the fire chiefs are driving them, they're way cool but can only go about 200-250 miles before a fill up.
Earth? We could always invest in a few more desalination plants
Which are powered by what?
200 - 250 Mi would be ducky for me -- I don't have to commute, so I only put on about 4,000 mi per year.
I applaud environmental moves. However, even if we all drive clean cars, and by some miracle the manufacture and recycling becomes clean as well, we still have the huge environmental impact caused by roads. Not to mention the amount of human and animal death that comes with them. The world would still be a better and safer place with fewer cars full stop. The clean car often strikes me as an easing of guilt not a solution to global warming and environmental damage.
in a way, you are right. but how would your solution re: "fewer cars full stop" be?
i don't see the reasoning behind trying to create clean cars to be "easing of guilt".
So how many kilometres per kilogramme of Hydrogen is that? I presume the US will go properly metric now that petrol is on it's way out.
Or will we be going with moles? Cents per mole? Moles per parsec? I can get 40 parsecs to the dollar on just 85 moles of Hydrogen. Geeze - I've got a degree in Chemistry and even I know that makes no sense.
Or will we be going with moles? Cents per mole? Moles per parsec? I can get 40 parsecs to the dollar on just 85 moles of Hydrogen. Geeze - I've got a degree in Chemistry and even I know that makes no sense.
Here too. For city driving it'd be great, but anywhere out of town I'd like to drive it's in the 250 mile range or so. I'd prefer not to run out of juice just as I'm pulling in to wherever.CanadaRAM said:
The real question is if you can do the Kessel Run in under 12 parsecs.
Um, clean drinking-water might be in short-supply, but there's absolutely no shortage of water as such. Hell, take a look at the world map one day. You will notice that most of this planet is covered with water!
Seriously, it only covers what, 71% of the Earth? We could always invest in a few more desalination plants
There are some hydrogen BMW 7 series that are being tested around where I live in California, the fire chiefs are driving them, they're way cool but can only go about 200-250 miles before a fill up.
another problem with that. You first have to remove the salt from it to be able to complete the process. And let not forget that process takes a lot of energy as well to complete.
Oh and btw the brine left over is classified as toxic waste and it is very toxic. You now have an entire another problem to deal with....
And that brine is going to be left no matter how you cut it and it is very toxic to life.
Sorry to bust everyone bubble on the ocean but desalination is not as crack up as it seems. Information brought to by the my environmental engineering class I took in college while I was working on my degree in Civil Engineering.
You get 1,234,000,000,000,000 kilometers on just 3 kg of H2? Please, share your secret.
You get 1,234,000,000,000,000 kilometers on just 3 kg of H2? Please, share your secret.
Fusion.
Next question?
There are few things to consider here. Hydrogen by itself is a clean source of energy. It's emissions are mostly water. Of course, there's the question on how we get that hydrogen. But that is a separate (yet connected) issue. Will it require energy to make hydrogen? Sure! But that energy in turn can be created with non-polluting means. Besides, if we start taking the energy spent creating hydrogen in to the discussion, then we also need to consider the resrouces being spent on oil-exploration, drilling, transportation of oil, refining etc. in to the mix as well.
If we compare the use of gasoline and diesel to using _and_ creating hydrogen, then we are comparing apples and oranges. If we want a valid comparison, we need to either compare the use of hydrogen as fuel to use of gasoline and diesel as fuel, or compare hydrogen as a fuel + the resources needed to create that fuel to gasoline/diesel as fuel + the resources needed to create that fuel.
I bet that in either case, hydrogen wins, as far as pollution is concerned.
The real question is if you can do the Kessel Run in under 12 parsecs.
Wow, that's less than 40 LY, only the distance to Eta Cassiopeia A and back. Some kind of worm hole.
As a fuel sorce Hydrogen is just not a good option. Water is sadly in shorter supply than gas. Gather Hydrogen from natural gas or oil is just a waste of energy because you will loss so much of the energy from the fuel and it does not remove the problem of fossil fuels.
I think the future lies in genitic engineer baterical able to instead of making ethnoal make oil and gas from there. There you renewable fuel source that has a lot more energy output than hydrogen.
Mix this with hybrid technology like the Volt coming to market which I would call a 2nd generation hybrid. Just hydrgen is all hype but a poor fuel way to power our energy needs.