Horrible incident in Santa Monica. At least 8 reported dead, many more injured.

[macfan]

I think the death toll is now up to nine. Wilshire Blvd was apparently like a war zone with helicopters coming in to medivac the critically hurt.

The solution to the problem of older drivers is not to take away their ability to drive. This might have been the first time there was any indication that he couldn't drive safely. The solution is to develop technology that will make something like this impossible. It can be done, and it should be done. In fact, such technology is making its way into high end cars even now. With time, it will be possible to equip cars so that they can be operated safely by people with dimished motor skills.

Also, I agree it is sick to say that he should be killed. (BTW, there was a mob who gathered and wanted to kill him on the spot, but they were persuaded to leave him alone).

 

[G4scott]

Just a couple of hours ago, an elderly woman was killed across the street from my house by a driver who swerved off the road, and onto the lawn of a house.

It is truly a sad thing.

And what's worse, is it doesn't look like the lady driving had touched her breaks until she was almost about to hit the house, where her truck spun around, smashing the elderly lady against the house.

This doesn't happen when you're paying attention, and you drive the speed limit.

Seriously, more people are killed in traffic accidents than have been killed in all of the US's major wars.

 

[Doctor Q]

The Red Cross announced there was a blood shortage and asked for more blood donations. I donated blood at a local hospital. I'm Type O so they are especially fond of me. Blood shortages happen a lot in California. People in the "fly-over" states donate more than they use, while Californians use more than they collect, so the Red Cross regularly ships blood west, which adds to the cost. I don't know the reason for this. It would be easy to make unfair generalizations to explain it, but I'm sure there's more to it.

Another debatable issue: Would it be worth the cost to put up real concrete barricades, rather than simple sandwich-board signs, when streets are closed for pedestrian events, to prevent rare but deadly disasters like this one? You can't put an exact dollar amount on human life, but taxpayers are often faced with choices like this and must decide how much prevention is "worth it". My opinion: It's not worth hauling big barriers on trucks each time, but for regular and frequent events it would be worth putting holes in the pavement (a one-time installation cost) into which metal poles could be inserted during each event. I've seen such arrangements in store parking lots, where they close off sections after certain hours. It's enough to stop a car at a medium speed.

 

[rice_web]

Originally posted by QCassidy352
[the following is not a personal attack, but rather a comment about your opinion in this particular case...]

Your position makes me SICK. To know that opinion is actually held by people who seem quite intelligent.... well, to say that it sickens me isn't sufficient.

This was a tragic accident. What good does it do to make it 10 deaths instead of 9? How does that help anything? What happened was horrible, but let's not make it worse.

Vengence is WRONG. This is blood lust, pure and simple. Killing this man would help no one, serve nothing, and show brutality on the part of those who killed him, making them by far worse then him. His crime (unless something shocking comes up) was the result of senility, really bad reflexes, or just plain old panic and confusion. Yours would be one of total barbarism.

Actually, vengeance is RIGHT. To quote Bill Maher, "violence is always the answer." And he's right, if you're bigger and smarter than everyone else, no one will stand up to you; they'd lose.

With that in mind, people wouldn't kill if they were tortured. It's quite simple, make the punishment hell, and crime will drop like mad. Take away the slap on the wrist for drug use and replace it with hard time, watch drug use plummet. Force inmates into work while imprisoned and watch the crime rate go down. Impose the death penalty for more crimes, and watch the crime rate go down.

It's not necessarily right, in a moral sense, but it'd sure as hell straighten people up.

 

[rice_web]

Originally posted by macfan
The solution to the problem of older drivers is not to take away their ability to drive. This might have been the first time there was any indication that he couldn't drive safely. The solution is to develop technology that will make something like this impossible. It can be done, and it should be done. In fact, such technology is making its way into high end cars even now. With time, it will be possible to equip cars so that they can be operated safely by people with dimished motor skills.

Why not test them every few years? Why not test everybody? If you want to make the roads safer, the very least we could do is make a mandatory test every five years for every licensed driver. Don't take the test, license is revoked. Fail the test, license is revoked.

Would it be that much of a mess to be tested every five years?

 

[G4scott]

In Texas, older people have to get their license renewed more often, and they have more strict medical and eyesight guidelines.

These provisions may not be enough... With the amount of money spend on video games, why don't they make a driving simulation that tests reaction times that is available at public safety departments?

 

[idkew]

Originally posted by rice_web
Take away the slap on the wrist for drug use and replace it with hard time, watch drug use plummet. Force inmates into work while imprisoned and watch the crime rate go down. Impose the death penalty for more crimes, and watch the crime rate go down.

you are really not thinking this through. sending people who smoke pot to jail cost a ton of money? you want to pay for it? not only does it cost something like $30-$40,000 to incarcerate someone a year, it also means that one less person is paying taxes... watch your taxes go up to fix the problem.

also- the death penalty would not stop crimes from occuring. many crimes which would/could be imposed with the death penality are passion crimes in which the perpetrator does not think far enough ahead to see consequences and/or no longer cares what those may be. not to mention, it would once again raise taxes since it costs so much to put someone to death.

 

[idkew]

Originally posted by rice_web
Why not test them every few years? Why not test everybody? If you want to make the roads safer, the very least we could do is make a mandatory test every five years for every licensed driver. Don't take the test, license is revoked. Fail the test, license is revoked.

Would it be that much of a mess to be tested every five years?

well, considering it takes 3 hours where i am at to get tested, it would be a huge inconvienence and cost (once again...)

imagine the amount of people in line for testing just increased by 56,000,000 people? fun. who gives these 56,000,000 new tests? would these tests even be effective? what says that a driver could not just drive correctly for the 20 minute test and then leave and drive like an idiot?

 

[rice_web]

Originally posted by idkew
well, considering it takes 3 hours where i am at to get tested, it would be a huge inconvienence and cost (once again...)

imagine the amount of people in line for testing just increased by 56,000,000 people? fun. who gives these 56,000,000 new tests? would these tests even be effective? what says that a driver could not just drive correctly for the 20 minute test and then leave and drive like an idiot?

But you run into the same problem today, with teens only driving well for the test. However, it would test for reaction times, etc. and would take those that can't drive off the road (and there are quite a few).

 

[Ugg]

Originally posted by rice_web
However, it would test for reaction times, etc. and would take those that can't drive off the road (and there are quite a few).

I think that is a good idea, to test for reaction times. Although, I have to wonder how the average 75 year old would do in a simulation environment. After all, they would have been around 40 when the first vid games came out.....

I don't think there is an easy or inexpensive solution to the problem but it is one that needs to be addressed. By the end of the decade the baby boomers will start to turn 65 and elderly drivers will be much more common than they are now. They are probably a lot less likely to give up driving without a fight because it really was their generation that came to view driving as essential to life in the US.

macfan's suggestion of implementing technology is great but who is going to pay for it and can the average 75 year old afford it? There are more questions than answers at this point but it's not too soon to start the debate.

 

[Doctor Q]

They teach airplane pilots to fly in flight simulators because it is safer and more cost effective than using actual planes. Maybe we need driving simulators at each state motor vehicle office. You wait in line, do a 2-minute run in the simulator, get a score, take your eye test, get a score, and get your license renewed if you pass both tests.

 

[QCassidy352]

Originally posted by rice_web
Actually, vengeance is RIGHT. To quote Bill Maher, "violence is always the answer." And he's right, if you're bigger and smarter than everyone else, no one will stand up to you; they'd lose.

With that in mind, people wouldn't kill if they were tortured. It's quite simple, make the punishment hell, and crime will drop like mad. Take away the slap on the wrist for drug use and replace it with hard time, watch drug use plummet. Force inmates into work while imprisoned and watch the crime rate go down. Impose the death penalty for more crimes, and watch the crime rate go down.

It's not necessarily right, in a moral sense, but it'd sure as hell straighten people up.

"the law of the mighty is might makes right..." you really want to go with that? The one with the biggest guns makes the rules? You clearly haven't taken this line of thought to its logical conclusion, but I'll leave that for you.

And your assertion about harsher punishments curtailing crime may be true, and it may not. There has NEVER been a study showing that the death penalty deters crime. And idkew is right - many violent crimes occur with no forethought, so no matter what you threaten people with, they will still act out of anger in the heat of the moment.

On the other hand, Singapore has a lot less crime than the US. So you can use that in defense of your argument... BUT, in Singapore, people are scared to death of the government, and you can be publically and brutally beaten for spitting on the sidewalk (remember that american kid a few years ago?). Personally, I would never visit Singapore because I'd be terrified of breaking some law I didn't even know existed and being locked away for 10 years for it.

Yes, people do respond to overwhelming force. Hold a gun to peoples heads and most of them will follow your rules, most of the time. Stalinist Russia and Nazi Germany proved that.

But you'll also generate a hell of a lot of hate and guerrilla resistance. You say, "if you're bigger and smarter than everyone else, no one will stand up to you; they'd lose." Sorry, but that's just wrong. History is full of examples of people fighting those bigger and smarter than themselves, and often winning. If push came to shove, the US could nuke the entire middle east to a fine powder -- did that stop the terrorist attacks of 9/11? Overwhelming force will make people scared to stand up to you face to face, but they'll be even more likely to shoot you in the back.

Bill Maher is a talk show host trying to be witty. I wouldn't use him as a basis for my life philosophies.

 

[medea]

a drivers liscense is not a right, you are not automatically entitled to one. When you grow older it's a given that certain abilities will deteriorate and because of that when you reach a certain age you should have to be tested to see if you are capable of driving, if you are a fit older man/woman then you have nothing to worry about and you will be able to continue driving, but if you are not fit to drive then you are a danger and a hazard to other drivers and should not be allowed to operate a vehicle any longer. If testing like this were already in place an accident like this might have been avoided.


You know maybe we should see what other countries like France for instance have for rules on the road, I remember in May there was an accident in France involving 28 dead and 46 injuries and it was the WORST road accident in France in 20 years, we beat that every other day here in the U.S.

 

[pseudobrit]

I'm usually frustrated as hell whenever I see a Buick being driven, because somehow I end up stuck behind them and they're all piloted by septuagenarians at 15 mph or 20% lower than the speed limit, whichever is greater.

It's morbidly ironic that this one was actually attaining highway speeds.

 

[Doctor Q]

Three news updates that I find upsetting:

* A 7-month old boy was the 10th victim. He died this afternoon.

* George Weller had a previous accident. In 1991 he lost control of his car and drove over a retaining wall. It appeared to be the same car. A video played on local news showed his family joking about his bad driving.

* The City of Santa Monica hasn't throught to put a memorial notice of any kind on its Farmers' Market page.

Good news: It was reported that installation of metal poles is now being considered, to block the area during future farmers' markets. (See my suggestion in an earlier post.)

 

[agreenster]

Originally posted by Doctor Q
... drivers, but yesterday a spokespeople said that giving more frequent driving tests to people over a certain age would be "age discrimination...

It isnt age discrimination. If the USA didnt place restrictions on people because of age, 5 year olds would vote and buy cigarettes and alcohol, 13 year olds would be driving, and child pornography would run rampant, just to name a few.

I say if an 80 year old can pass a driving test, they can drive. If not, they should have their liscence taken away.

 

[Doctor Q]

Yesterday, the state of California suspended Mr. Weller's driver's license, probably on the recommendation of local authorities. There was no indication that they had given him any driving tests, so it must be based only on the occurrence of this accident. This doesn't seem to match the treatment of other drivers who simply step on the wrong pedal, which is what he claims happened. Of course, other drivers who make this mistake rarely cause so much carnage.

 

[Sun Baked]

What's with the oldsters and driving through Farmer's Markets this month?

AP - Elderly Driver Loses Control, 6 Injured

FLAGLER BEACH, Fla. (AP) - A 79-year-old man apparently lost control of his car and plowed into a northern Florida farmer's market Friday, sending six people to hospitals, law officers said.

The driver blamed the accident on a stuck gas pedal, Fire Chief Jon Macdonald said.

The man was getting ready to leave the weekly market's parking lot when his car rammed three or four other vehicles, then hit the six people near a peaches and strawberry stand, Macdonald said.

Most seriously hurt was a 7-year-old girl whose leg was run over by the car. None of the six had life-threatening injuries, he said. The driver was unhurt and was released.

 

[Doctor Q]

Starting next year in Florida, drivers age 79 and above will have to take vision tests every 4 to 6 years, depending on their driving record. Currently, they can go up to 18 years between vision tests!

 

[Doctor Q]

News update:

Shamsi Khani, matriarch of a family that immigrated from Iran 50 years ago, was one of the people critically injured in the accident last July. She has 6 children, 20 grandchildren, and 6 great grandchildren. She is 88 years old and already had a pacemaker.

When hit during the accident, she was knocked into the air and suffered a broken hip, fractured leg, gashed cheek, severed ear, severed temporal artery, and a broken neck. Because of her age and condition, she did not have a good chance for survival and, even if she survived, was said by a specialist to have a 90% chance of being paralyzed. In the first few days after the accident, she had an operation for the broken neck and surgery for the broken hip and a blood clot. A total of 12 hours of surgery. She had metal plates inserted on both sides of her neck.

The news: She beat the odds. She has been moved out of the main hospital to a convalescent hospital, where she is regaining strength and exercising her legs. And she got to go home for Rosh Hashana dinner a week ago.

Just thought those who read this thread would like the good news.

 

[wdlove]

Thank you Doctor Q for the update. That is trully a remarkable recovery. Reading about her injuries all possibities of complications ran through my mind. I gather from your remarks that she is Jewish. The power of prayer can do wonders. Did it say how much longer she will be in rehabilitation?

 

[Doctor Q]

No, they didn't say, but it sure sounds like she'll soon be able to stay at home regularly and continue her rehab there or by visiting the convalescent hospital. I know the hospital she's staying at, and it's really a medical halfway house. I'm sure it's hard work and she still has to endure many discomforts, but it sounds like she's doing remarkably fine.

 

[Doctor Q]

News update: The preliminary report by the California Highway Patrol eliminates all causes other than human error. They conclude that Mr. Weller might have been impaired by prescription medicine that can cause dizziness or by the limited mobility resulting from his hip replacements. The car had no mechanical problems. Weather was not involved.

Still, nobody has explained why he drove with his eyes wide open, staring straight ahead, hands at 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock on the wheel, for 2-1/2 blocks. Or what made him eventually stop. Witnesses even said he streered to avoid parked cards, but not pedestrians.

Some victims want to see him prosecuted. Others don't think that would serve any purpose (he turns 87 January first). Almost all have said they want to see older drivers tested more thoroughly and frequently.

 

[Doctor Q]

Today's news: George Weller was charged with 10 felony counts of vehicular manslaughter after a 5-month investigation. If he's found guilty, it will be up to the judge to decide if he is given probation or up to 18 years in state prison (which is longer than his life expectancy). His lawyer now says that the original accident happened from his pushing the wrong pedal, and that he may have had a small stroke, but many of the victims are still saying they want him to apologize and that he hasn't so far.

I expect that Mr. Weller will be found guilty but given only probation due to his age, lack of previous offenses, and that he was a good citizen in the past: library volunteer, church volunteer, and a tutor of high school students. Recently, he has not come out of his house (even having groceries delivered), until today, when he "surrendered to authorities".

Edit: He pleaded not guilty today.

 

[rainman::|:|]

Unless the defense comes up with a valid medical argument here, I say keep him in house arrest until he's dead. I don't think it's fair to shove a 90-year old in jail; but I don't think it's fair to let someone that killed 10 people go free just because he's old. And, as people have said since July when it happened, i hope this leads to better licensing restrictions for the elderly.

paul