how about a unix forum?

Discussion in 'Site and Forum Feedback' started by jhu, Apr 12, 2004.

  1. jhu macrumors 6502a


    Apr 4, 2004
    wouldn't that make sense given that mac osx is based on bsd?
  2. Sun Baked macrumors G5

    Sun Baked

    May 19, 2002
    er... why? [​IMG]

    Just ask your question in the Software and/or OS X v10.x section.
  3. jhu thread starter macrumors 6502a


    Apr 4, 2004
  4. depolitic macrumors newbie

    Jun 23, 2003
    Melbourne Australia
    Yes, is my answer, I also think that UNIX rumors should be included as part of the macrumors site, maybe a second UNIX page for those who care. If the UNIX rumor affects Darwin, things like CUPS, Apache, Java, GNUStep and GNU etc etc, as these are core and technically far more critical to Mac OS X then any iLife product. Mac OS X == Darwin == FreeBSD == UNIX all different aspects of the same whole.
  5. michaelrjohnson macrumors 68020

    Aug 9, 2000
    I think this is a good idea, not for UNIX questions, but for UNIX discussion. I am interested in expanding my knowledge into UNIX, but I have no specific questions to ask. By providing such a forum, those who are more experienced could have discussions that are UNIX-centered, not OS X-centered, and MR Members could browse through and learn from them. I think it is an exceptional idea. Arn, give it some thought! :)
  6. alex_ant macrumors 68020


    Feb 5, 2002
    All up in your bidness
    Unix sucks. If you want to flog that hippie crap, go to slashdot. I bought a Mac, not a subscription into some exclusive smelly longhaired heavy metal listening social outcast inferiority complex club.
  7. depolitic macrumors newbie

    Jun 23, 2003
    Melbourne Australia
    And no offense alex_ant but you already belong to social minority club, its called being a Macintosh user.

    You may deny your heritage but it shines through all the time, and our collective heritage is UNIX and we may deny were we come from but our chowns and chmods always come shinning though.

    Also if UNIX sucks, then so must mutli tasking suck, protected memory suck, cups, and a **** load of UNIX only software suck as well, can you say Shake without OS X UNIX backbone Shake would never work on a Mac. Yes UNIX sucks big time if your an envois Mac OS 9 or Windows user. Get abit of UNIX into your life it makes everthing better.
  8. iMeowbot macrumors G3


    Aug 30, 2003
    Is there really much in the way of Unix rumors? I mean, other than the annoyances currently emanating from Lindon, isn't stuff pretty much out in the open? The existing software and OS X boards here don't seem to attract much talk about the BSD subsystem....
  9. jhu thread starter macrumors 6502a


    Apr 4, 2004
    that only makes some sense (if barely any) if you're not using osx.
  10. jhu thread starter macrumors 6502a


    Apr 4, 2004
    they don't but they should.
  11. superbovine macrumors 68030


    Nov 7, 2003
    from the post on this thread is shows how different people view there Macs running OSX. the people who know Unix, have another powerfully tool to that come with their mac. the people who do not know about unix, and cannot see beyond the GUI layer of abstraction will probably never need it. a unix forum in this place would help, because the people who have never heard about it or realize that it is there could actually learn something about their mac. also it would spark a good discussions like how to hell to get vpnd to work in panther. another example would be, making a crond file to actually run and log your fix file permission automatically without adding any additional software. simple stuff like i think people would apperciate learning about.
  12. alex_ant macrumors 68020


    Feb 5, 2002
    All up in your bidness
    I don't have any "heritage." **** Unix, **** its stupid elitist, holier-than-thou "philosophy" and standards-based mediocrity, from NFS to the X-Windows Disaster to its printing "system" to its archaic data model to its command-line "user interface." I'm not a Macintosh user, I'm someone who doesn't care about computers who uses a Macintosh. There is a big difference. I'm not a religious fanatic. I use what works best for me and if the Mac didn't work best for me I would use what did. I used Linux for 4 years before this and am still trying to wash the taste out of my mouth. Don't tell me about Unix making my life better, Unix is a waste of every normal person's time, a grand monument to dysfunction in every sense of the word, and I wouldn't touch its rotten corpse again if you paid me.

    Multitasking and protected memory are not exclusive to Unix, it's just that you think they are because Unix has overshadowed superior technologies due to its corporate backing. There was actually some debate in the '80s as to whether Unix was foisted on us by the Soviets in an effort to set our computer science development back several decades, and I wouldn't be surprised. I'm not going to be the LOTR fanatic zitfaced computer geek here and list out everything that's wrong with it because it would be much easier and faster to list everything that isn't:

    There you go
  13. alex_ant macrumors 68020


    Feb 5, 2002
    All up in your bidness
    Just a minor correction, and I don't mean to pick on you, I'm just ranting to the sky - Unix is not power, Unix is the illusion of power. It's a way of making you spend 5 hours reading unintelligible half-written documentation and post pleas for help on forums like this to perform a simple task. That way, when you've finally accomplished what you set out to do, you're so happy and excited, you feel like you just got back from Vietnam after 4 years in the Hanoi Hilton. The fact that we actually, on modern computers, have something called "crond" that "fixes file permissions" in our "log files" is testament to how deeply we've been indoctrinated into accepting all this bull**** as normality - as good, even! It's no different from Windows users who accept all the viruses and mysterious error messages without complaint. Unix is a regression, it's a way of retreating into the arrogance of the past and shying from the possibilities of the future.

    My computer works for me. My computer will do what I tell it to do and I REFUSE to let it jerk me around because I am its god, and it is my slave. Now I'm going to go because I think I'm pissing off my computer's Unix underpinnings, and I don't want it to be spewing anymore nerd vomit like:

    Apr 14 18:11:36 x84-100-52-dhcp mDNSResponder[156]: mDNSResponder Waking at 485000722
    Apr 14 18:11:36 x84-100-52-dhcp mDNSResponder[156]: mDNSPlatformSendUDP sendto failed to send packet on InterfaceID 01809A00 en0/4 to skt 4 error -1 errno 49 (Can't assign requested address)
    Apr 14 18:11:50 x84-100-52-dhcp kernel: AirPort: Link UP: "UofM Wireless" - 00022d0338b7 - chan 1
    Apr 14 18:48:33 x84-100-52-dhcp kernel: IOAudioStream[0x18b7e00]::clipIfNecessary() - Error: attempting to clip to a position more than one buffer ahead of last clip position (0,2d6b)->(2,f0e).
    Apr 14 18:48:33 x84-100-52-dhcp kernel: IOAudioStream[0x18b7e00]::clipIfNecessary() - adjusting clipped position to (1,2d6b)
    Apr 14 18:56:43 x84-100-52-dhcp ntpd[258]: sendto( Can't assign requested address
    Apr 14 20:21:50 x84-100-52-dhcp mDNSResponder[156]: mDNSResponder Sleeping at 492815342
    Apr 14 20:21:51 x84-100-52-dhcp kernel: AppleNMI mask NMI
  14. jhu thread starter macrumors 6502a


    Apr 4, 2004
    you seem to be one of those unix-haters who doesn't have a definitive answer for an alternative. hey, kind of like that book "the unix-haters handbook." lots of criticism without a solution.
  15. superbovine macrumors 68030


    Nov 7, 2003
    you are miss quoteing me. i stated the unix was a powerful tool, not power itself. i was simply making an agrument why there should be a forum not why unix is powerful. you seem to be making the argument why unix is NOT powerful, which i don't really care about. what i care about is a forum on this website that is devoted to unix end of OSX to be employed as a TOOL by the user to gain more functionality that most average joe user do not know about. please do not put words in my mouth.
  16. alex_ant macrumors 68020


    Feb 5, 2002
    All up in your bidness
    Answers for alternatives are literally everywhere, staring you right in the face, you're just not interested in them and so you choose to ignore them.


    Apr 15 17:52:09 localhost diskarbitrationd[91]: disk1s2 hfs DB1D3818-9BFD-3285-A4C0-F773AEDFA5AD Documents [not mounted]
  17. alex_ant macrumors 68020


    Feb 5, 2002
    All up in your bidness
    I know you don't care about it but I felt that it needed to be said. Sorry, carry on
  18. jhu thread starter macrumors 6502a


    Apr 4, 2004
    windows? plan 9? if those are the answers for alternatives, i'll pass
  19. alex_ant macrumors 68020


    Feb 5, 2002
    All up in your bidness
    Unix: It could be worse, but it'll take time

    Man pages that confuse you even more than they help you

    Having to read man pages in the first place

    Needing help and not knowing that the command to get help is 'man' (OBVIOUSLY, 'help' would be too easy - oops, 'help' is already reserved by the shell, well, bash at least, maybe not others) - er wait, is the command 'info'? Ah yes...

    [alexant@x84-33-247 alexant]$ info
    File: dir Node: Top This is the top of the INFO tree
    This (the Directory node) gives a menu of major topics.
    Typing "d" returns here, "q" exits, "?" lists all INFO commands, "h"
    gives a primer for first-timers, "mEmacs<Return>" visits the Emacs topic,
    In Emacs, you can click mouse button 2 on a menu item or cross reference
    to select it.
    --- PLEASE ADD DOCUMENTATION TO THIS TREE. (See INFO topic first.) ---

    * Menu: The list of major topics begins on the next line.

    * Ada mode: (ada-mode). The GNU Emacs mode for editing Ada.
    * Autotype: (autotype). Convenient features for text that you enter frequently
    in Emacs.
    * CC Mode: (ccmode). Emacs mode for editing C, C++, Objective-C,
    Java, Pike, and IDL code.
    * CL: (cl). Partial Common Lisp support for Emacs Lisp.
    * Dired-X: (dired-x). Dired Extra Features.
    * EUDC: (eudc). A client for directory servers (LDAP, PH)
    * Ebrowse: (ebrowse). A C++ class browser for Emacs.
    * Ediff: (ediff). A visual interface for comparing and merging programs.
    -----Info: (dir)Top, 87 lines --Top---------------------------------------------
    Welcome to Info version 4.6. Type ? for help, m for menu item.

    Thanks info, that clears it right up!

    Simplicity at all costs (which is to say simplicity for the developers, eyeball-clawing complexity for the users)

    Inconsistency being a virtue

    "Sure I'll erase your whole filesystem, because you just typed rm -rf / and that couldn't have been a typo"



    NFS locking up the whole filesystem waiting for a timeout


    C, language of infinite buffer overflows

    A million stupid "libraries" all dependent on each other


    X-Windows: "The client is the server is the server is the client and the boundary between them is arbitrary,"

    X-Windows: Raw pixel coordinates with no way to automatically adjust on-screen graphics' aspect ratios. "A rectangle is a rectangle, a square is a square, unless you're in 1280x1024 in which case a square is a rectangle too, and a circle is an ellipse, and GOD KNOWS what that arc is"


    Kernel modules

    25 different goddam places for shell config files

    /etc, config file wasteland, except when the config files are in /usr/local somewhere, or maybe /opt, or maybe /var

    ifconfig: illegal option -- p
    usage: ifconfig [-L] interface address_family [address [dest_address]]
    ifconfig interface create
    ifconfig -a [-L] [-d] [-m] [-u] [address_family]
    ifconfig -l [-d] [-u] [address_family]
    ifconfig [-L] [-d] [-m] [-u]


    /bin, /usr/bin, /usr/local/bin, /usr/sbin, /sbin, what's the difference? Who knows! Just remember, binaries don't go in /bin, they go in /usr/bin! Obviously! What's "usr" short for? "User?" Oh OK, that's where the user home directories must be, right?

    [alexant@x84-33-247 alexant]$ help
    These shell commands are defined internally. Type `help' to see this list.
    Type `help name' to find out more about the function `name'.
    Use `info bash' to find out more about the shell in general.
    Use `man -k' or `info' to find out more about commands not in this list.

    %[DIGITS | WORD] [&] (( expression ))
    . filename :
    [ arg... ] [[ expression ]]
    alias [-p] [name[=value] ... ] bg [job_spec]
    bind [-lpvsPVS] [-m keymap] [-f fi break [n]
    builtin [shell-builtin [arg ...]] case WORD in [PATTERN [| PATTERN].
    cd [-L|-P] [dir] command [-pVv] command [arg ...]
    compgen [-abcdefgjksuv] [-o option complete [-abcdefgjksuv] [-pr] [-o
    continue [n] declare [-afFirtx] [-p] name[=valu
    dirs [-clpv] [+N] [-N] disown [-h] [-ar] [jobspec ...]
    echo [-neE] [arg ...] enable [-pnds] [-a] [-f filename]
    eval [arg ...] exec [-cl] [-a name] file [redirec
    exit [n] export [-nf] [name[=value] ...] or
    false fc [-e ename] [-nlr] [first] [last
    fg [job_spec] for NAME [in WORDS ... ;] do COMMA
    for (( exp1; exp2; exp3 )); do COM function NAME { COMMANDS ; } or NA
    getopts optstring name [arg] hash [-lr] [-p pathname] [-dt] [na
    help [-s] [pattern ...] history [-c] [-d offset] [n] or hi
    if COMMANDS; then COMMANDS; [ elif jobs [-lnprs] [jobspec ...] or job
    kill [-s sigspec | -n signum | -si let arg [arg ...]
    local name[=value] ... logout
    popd [+N | -N] [-n] printf format [arguments]
    pushd [dir | +N | -N] [-n] pwd [-PL]
    read [-ers] [-u fd] [-t timeout] [ readonly [-anf] [name[=value] ...]
    return [n] select NAME [in WORDS ... ;] do CO
    set [--abefhkmnptuvxBCHP] [-o opti shift [n]
    shopt [-pqsu] [-o long-option] opt source filename
    suspend [-f] test [expr]
    time [-p] PIPELINE times
    trap [arg] [signal_spec ...] or tr true
    type [-afptP] name [name ...] typeset [-afFirtx] [-p] name[=valu
    ulimit [-SHacdflmnpstuv] [limit] umask [-p] [-S] [mode]
    unalias [-a] [name ...] unset [-f] [-v] [name ...]
    until COMMANDS; do COMMANDS; done variables - Some variable names an
    wait [n] while COMMANDS; do COMMANDS; done
    { COMMANDS ; }

    Thanks for the help, bash, that clears it right up! Gee, it's getting late. What time is it? [alexant@x84-33-247 bin]$ time
    -bash: syntax error near unexpected token `newline'

    [alexant@x84-33-247 local]$ cdrecord
    -bash: cdrecord: command not found
    [alexant@x84-33-247 local]$ recordcd
    -bash: recordcd: command not found
    [alexant@x84-33-247 local]$ record my cd
    -bash: record: command not found
    [alexant@x84-33-247 local]$ there's a cd on my desktop, record it!
    > what?
    > What is this?
    > A new prompt?
    > What did I do to deserve this?
    > Get me out of here!
    > stop
    > end
    > QUIT
    > QUIT
    > QUIT
    > QUIT

    hiding files that start with a dot

    deleting files that start with a dot:
    [alexant@x84-33-247 alexant]$ rm .*
    Cue Unix Tyrant: Silly non-nerd, that would be too intuitive! Unix will not allow that. The penalty for screwing up is, your entire filesystem is now empty! Ha ha!"

    Practically useless copy-paste, when it even works at all

    [alexant@x84-33-247 alexant]$ computer, display a list of everybody logged in.
    -bash: computer,: command not found

    Stuff scrolling past the terminal and not knowing about 'more' and 'less'

    The fact that 'more' and 'less,' which do basically the same thing (?), are actually called 'more' and 'less' - yes, that makes sense... although 'less' sense than 2+3=8

    If I list files with ls, and I move files with mv, and I copy files with copy, then it must be that I rename files with, hmm... 'rn'?

    [alexd@x84-33-247 alexd]$ rn
    -bash: rn: command not found

    Oh well, maybe this one's spelled out the long way:

    [alexd@x84-33-247 alexd]$ rename
    -bash: rename: command not found

    [alexd@x84-33-247 alexd]$ help rename
    -bash: help: no help topics match `rename'. Try `help help' or `man -k rename' or `info rename'.

    [alexd@x84-33-247 alexd]$ info rename

    YES!!!! INFO IS MY SAVIOUR!!! Wait...

    File: *manpages*, Node: rename, Up: (dir)

    rename(n) Tcl Built-In Commands rename(n)


    rename - Rename or delete a command

    rename oldName newName

    Rename the command that used to be called oldName so that it is now
    called newName. If newName is an empty string then oldName is deleted.
    oldName and newName may include namespace qualifiers (names of contain-
    ing namespaces). If a command is renamed into a different namespace,
    future invocations of it will execute in the new namespace. The rename
    command returns an empty string as result.

    -----Info: (*manpages*)rename, 28 lines --Top-----------------------------------
    Welcome to Info version 4.6. Type ? for help, m for menu item.

    Namespace? Empty string? Qualifiers? Maybe not.


    Stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid. Where's the thought? It's like, "OK, here's the lump of poop, sure it's stinky but it gets the job done so stop complaining."
  20. jhu thread starter macrumors 6502a


    Apr 4, 2004
    but you still haven't pointed out any alternatives. every system has its own idiosyncracies. that's why a unix forum would be a good idea here so that people can learn the unix-specific side of osx.
  21. alex_ant macrumors 68020


    Feb 5, 2002
    All up in your bidness
    Unix: Power tools for power fools

    I don't understand why you're so fixated on alternatives. There are very few, most that have existed have been stomped flat by either Microsoft or Unix vendors. Unix sucks ass whether or not there are alternatives. Mac OS (above the surface, and Classic) is one alternative. NeXT (above the surface) BeOS, NeWS, OS/2, Multics, AmigaOS, Plan 9, TOPS-20, ITS... the development of all of these actually involved some degree of thought. As opposed to "work on whatever you want," or "everything is a file," which is not really so much philosophy as arbitrary nonsense.

    Unix's philosophy is, programmers do whatever they want, screw the users. ("Users." Not people.) In fact, make it difficult for the users because computing is an adventure, it's not for everybody, you should HAVE to sit down and learn this stuff and cut your teeth on sed and awk because that's how boys become men. "Why, I remember back in the days before AOL, when the internet was pure, free of all these idiot newbies...." Social problems, feelings of being outcast, feelings of being superior to everyone else and merely misunderstood: all fundamental, psychological Unix enthusiast underpinnings. "Let's write this wicked new scheduler and make it really complex so we can impress everybody."

    Most non-Unix OSes have had at least one or two innovative ideas, some many more. Heuristics, more (any) use of database models of information management, non-braindead security, a human-centered user interface, true plug-and-play, objects, crash-proof software... all of these are ideas that have been around a long time, and have even been implemented in various projects to some degree, but where they haven't been implemented in Windows or OS X or something else, they're mostly sitting in rotting technical journals on bookshelves at the moment because the Unix alchemists have given up trying to turn lead into gold and have learned to be content with their lead. People forget how revolutionary the Mac OS was, and they think that no more innovation on that level is possible because their thought processes are so entrenched, they don't know how to imagine anything different from scrollbars, web pages, menus, a hierarchy of files. Real innovation is possible, and needed, and that is a lesson that won't be learned until the smart computer people (most of whom are unfortunately unix geeks) learn to step outside their little world, stop being so defensive, admit their faults, and aspire to do better.

    Fight Unix. Declare jihad. Do not give in.
  22. jhu thread starter macrumors 6502a


    Apr 4, 2004
    given your angst, i'm surprised you're still using computers at all. you yourself stated that there were alternatives, and yet now you assert that there are no real good ones. fight unix? you lose credibility yourself by using a unix-like os. unix does not suck ass. it's definitely not perfect, and that's why a unix forum is a good idea here.
  23. alex_ant macrumors 68020


    Feb 5, 2002
    All up in your bidness
    Unix: You'll envy the dead

    The graphical portion of Mac OS X is not Unix-like and if it were I wouldn't be using it. I'm not making a practical argument called "switch to something else," I'm making an ideological argument called "stop accepting mediocrity, start thinking outside the box, question everything, work to make things better, don't lord your knowledge over others, don't accept that learning cryptic commands and other nonsense is the key to a better computing experience."
  24. jhu thread starter macrumors 6502a


    Apr 4, 2004
    kde and gnome aren't unix-like either. that doesn't mean that they're still not running on a unix base. if you're content with using something that hides the unix underpinnings then that's great. there are others who would like to know more than that.

    your idealogical argument seems good, but how effective is it? it's like saying "i don't like how cars currently use internal combustion engines" and then driving away in your mercedes.
  25. alex_ant macrumors 68020


    Feb 5, 2002
    All up in your bidness
    If you're using KDE or Gnome and aren't touching the Unix underpinnings, then for most intents and purposes, you're using KDE or Gnome, not Unix. When it comes to those, it's the interface that's important and there's no reason that has to be Unix-exclusive.

    There are indeed many who are not satisfied that cars use use internal combustion engines at the moment and eagerly await cars with other types of engines (I don't know very much about cars so I wouldn't know what these might be), while in the mean time, they have no other choice but to drive cars with ICEs. They are not hypocrites for doing that, merely practical.

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