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It would be foolish to switch processors at this point. Especially right after a major OS overhaul. Developers are still twichy from the OS rewrites.. led alone having to recompile for another processor. That would be way to much change, too soon. That having been said, I'm not impressed by AMD nor Intel for the very same reason and wouldn't think of having one when neither have Velocity Engine. Oh ya, Hammer is 64-bit you say... Whatever, G5 is out in June at >1.6 Ghz introductory clockspeed.. and it has even more 128-bit Velocity engine parallel processing than current G4s.. which will make even the Hammer look like its asleep at the wheel. We'd all be dAM'D if Apple switched processor types now! With the G5 just around the corner, there just isn't compelling reason to destroy Apple's software and developer base. Have patience Danielson. It will be worth the wait.
 
Originally posted by krossfyter
why is chicagdan silent now?

A double post from krossfyter? Or were you just stepping up again and taunting chicagdan?;)

After a whole life in the computer world as the 'other' company, for Apple to switch processors would make them no different than Gateway, Dell, Compaq! Well, except that their design would set them apart, at least for a little while.

Even though its possible to port OSX for the AMD, it won't happen. But it would be interesting if we ever see a VirtualApple app for PCs so you could try to run FCP, iPod, iTunes, iMovie on a non-Apple machine.
 
I don't know how well it works, but there is an app called SoftMac that allows you to run the Mac OS on the peecee. I got a demo cd when I went to MWNY last year, but never bothered with it. It might be worth looking into, to give some peecee people that want to see how great the Mac OS is a try at it (without having to shell out $$ for a complete system). Granted, it won't perform as well as the Mac OS does on it's own hardware, but it might be a tool to bring more people over to the better side of computing :D.
 
Why would the OS have to be ported to x86? I mean, if the next version of the AMD chip is 64 bit, couldn't apple just have AMD make a version of that chip that is Apple only, I mean, not x86?

Forgive me, and dont' flame me, I just honestly don't know.
 
Originally posted by AlphaTech
I don't know how well it works, but there is an app called SoftMac that allows you to run the Mac OS on the peecee. I got a demo cd when I went to MWNY last year, but never bothered with it. It might be worth looking into, to give some peecee people that want to see how great the Mac OS is a try at it (without having to shell out $$ for a complete system). Granted, it won't perform as well as the Mac OS does on it's own hardware, but it might be a tool to bring more people over to the better side of computing :D.

Sort of how like Virtual PC is designed to show mac users the benefits of PCs and Windoze?

Ha, I'm only kidding. I'm dying here, that's just hilarious...

Actually, I'd love to get my hands on that software so I could get used to the OS before I bought my first Apple (first since I was about 12) and so I could convice my wife that the world won't end if we don't have windoze on our computer. (But I know how to use windoze. Why do we have to change...)
 
Originally posted by mcrain
Why would the OS have to be ported to x86? I mean, if the next version of the AMD chip is 64 bit, couldn't apple just have AMD make a version of that chip that is Apple only, I mean, not x86?

Forgive me, and dont' flame me, I just honestly don't know.

It's not that simple. There is more then just the pysical difference between processors, there is the encoding on them too. Currently, motorola is the only one that can produce the Altivec equiped chips. They are not allowing IBM to make them, although I thought that IBM was coming out with something that functions essentially the same.

Do you have any idea as to how long it has taken Moto to get to the G4 processor?? How many thousands of hours of R&D went into the processor??? I believe, but an not certain, that they have also been working on the G5 processor for some time now. Over a year, if not even longer. They can't just squeeze out a new processor every six months to a year. Look how long intel took to make their latest, and how long since the release of the previous to get to the newer. Same with AMD.
 
Originally posted by alex_ant

Fair enough...

How is Apple selling its soul? They're raking it in! Jobs is wiping his ass with thousand dollar bills! Show me another computer company in the same market as Apple who is doing as well as Apple is, who can sell a notebook computer with a *550* MHz processor and still have it sell like hotcakes. Apple is having it ****ing large, man, and you are proposing that they do away with this and shoot themselves in the head. I'm glad you're not running the company, mate, or I'd be stuck on a Compaq.

Alex

If it ain't broke DON'T FIX IT!!!
 
Why Not?

Forgive me if I am being ignorant here:

I thought the whole point of the "advanced OS" was to discontinue the power each application holds over the CPU. Along with this I thought that most if not all calls the applications make go to the OS, not to the hardware itself. So if Apple ports OS X to an x86 processor, the application's theroetically shouldn't have to be re-written, as they can make the same calls to the OS, and get the same results. If I am mistaken in this, then shame on the application engineers. The whole idea of modularity is thrown out the window by making direct calls to hardware.

Also, I almost hate to bring this up, but the PPC is not a better, or worse processor than AMD, or Intel. That is like saying that a hack-saw is better than a wood saw. These tools are somewhat specialized, you wouldn't use a hack-saw to saw down a tree, just as you wouldn't usw a wood-saw to cut a piece of metal. You don't see a Graphic Artist using an Intel platform, and you don't see CAD Engineers working on a Mac. Do not be fooled, there is a good reason for this, and it has nothing to do with user interface. See some of my previous posts if you are curious, or email me, I just don't feel like typing it out one more time.

Also we are talking about Processors, not co-processors(Velocity Engine). It shouldn't be too hard to apply an Velocity Engine to the AMD chipset. Since all AMD chipsets and Intel chipset have their own propritary technologies that do something similar to the Velocity Engine.

On the other hand, in a few years all this will be mote. Intel and AMD are already producing at the .9 Micron level. Somewhere around the .5 Micron level, a pesky little thing called Quantium Mechanics rears it's ugly little head, and the electron paths short out. So we are going to have to look at the possiblity of light, as opposed to electrons, to process.
 
Re: Why Not?

Originally posted by sturm375
On the other hand, in a few years all this will be mote. Intel and AMD are already producing at the .9 Micron level. Somewhere around the .5 Micron level, a pesky little thing called Quantium Mechanics rears it's ugly little head, and the electron paths short out. So we are going to have to look at the possiblity of light, as opposed to electrons, to process.

Wrong... AMD is still at the .13 micron level, and are not getting any smaller until sometime next year (second half at the earliest and THEN going to the .9 micron level). I don't know where you got your info, but I pulled mine direct from AMD's web site. The info can be found at http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/TechnicalResources/0,,30_182_608,00.html I didn't even bother looking at intel, since I will NEVER get one of their processors, so I don't care what they do.

As for Apple using an AMD processor to run their OS. You would negate ALL of the advantages, and code, that has been created to have software take advantage of the G4 (and the 'velocity engine'). Do you really want to piss off Adobe that much??? I bet Apple doesn't.

Also, the altivec core is heavily integrated into the G4 chip. I would imagine something along the same lines will be in the G5 (if not an improved version).
 
Also we are talking about Processors, not co-processors(Velocity Engine). It shouldn't be too hard to apply an Velocity Engine to the AMD chipset. Since all AMD chipsets and Intel chipset have their own propritary technologies that do something similar to the Velocity Engine.

Actually, that is not an easy task. Altivec is a generic SIMD whereas the AMD and Intel extensions are specific to graphics and different to each other. Also, Intel nor AMD could copy Altivec since it is patented.

Result - the apps that do not need Altivec are easy to port, but those that are Altivec optimized either have to have the Altivec component rewritten twice (once for Intel and once for AMD) or they lose the performance advantage of Altivec.
 
They are called prototypes

I did not mean that they are available to consumers, but the fact that they have a timetable set for deployment, means thay have produced some prototypes at the.9 Micron level. Chip developers do a lot of things they don't advertise on their websites. I have heard credible reports of Intel running a P4 at 8-10 Ghz. They haven't released the AMD 64-bit chip to the public yet, however I have seen Linux distrobutions that claim to support it. I don't dispute this because I have also seen reports that some of the major Linux players were heavily consulted in the design of AMD's chip.

I also didn't mean that, Adobe for instance, hasn't programed direct to hardware, I just meant that they shouldn't. They should be calling to the OS, then it is Apple's sole responsiblilty to maintain the calls to hardware. That is theoretically what the OS is supposed to do. Besides, Adobe hasn't even tried to optimize for the Intel world, and they still sell loads to the Intel world.
 
Re: They are called prototypes

Originally posted by sturm375
I did not mean that they are available to consumers, but the fact that they have a timetable set for deployment, means thay have produced some prototypes at the.9 Micron level. Chip developers do a lot of things they don't advertise on their websites. I have heard credible reports of Intel running a P4 at 8-10 Ghz. They haven't released the AMD 64-bit chip to the public yet, however I have seen Linux distrobutions that claim to support it. I don't dispute this because I have also seen reports that some of the major Linux players were heavily consulted in the design of AMD's chip.

I also didn't mean that, Adobe for instance, hasn't programed direct to hardware, I just meant that they shouldn't. They should be calling to the OS, then it is Apple's sole responsiblilty to maintain the calls to hardware. That is theoretically what the OS is supposed to do. Besides, Adobe hasn't even tried to optimize for the Intel world, and they still sell loads to the Intel world.

Adobe HAS made code within their programs to take advantage of the Altivec core. Where have you been??? That was one of the large announcements that came out not long after the G4 was introduced.

As for AMD and 64-bit processors... read up on the AMD XP chip series... they are 64-bit. They are also in both desktops being made as well as for sale by themselves (for people wanting to make computers with them inside).

I'm sure that they are working on making the chips use the .9 micron process, but who knows what stage they are at... It is highly likely that they are still in the design stage, or working the major bugs out of the process alone. Never mind actually making any chips. As for the time frame, that is probably being optimistic. With stating half-years, they could release them on the last day of that span and get away with it. IF it doesn't get delayed that is, which computer items are often known to have happen.

Oh yeah, one other thing... I wouldn't believe anything about intel coming out with fast/good products until it has actually hit the market, and passed it's first recall.

We have also been hearing rumors/credible reports of the G5 at over 1.3GHz for some time now. People claiming that they have them, or seen them, but no solid evidence as of yet. Just becuase someone took a bong hit and claims to have seen something, doesn't mean that it is actually out there.
 
I also didn't mean that, Adobe for instance, hasn't programed direct to hardware, I just meant that they shouldn't. They should be calling to the OS, then it is Apple's sole responsiblilty to maintain the calls to hardware. That is theoretically what the OS is supposed to do. Besides, Adobe hasn't even tried to optimize for the Intel world, and they still sell loads to the Intel world.

I do not expect Adobe programs directly to hardware. Apple does provide the the APIs to take advantage of Altivec and I would be amazed if Adobe does not use them. The problem is that the APIs Apple makes available for Altivec are totally different than what could be made available for the Intel for AMD processors - so the APIs would most likely change.
 
Re: Re: They are called prototypes

Originally posted by AlphaTech
Oh yeah, one other thing... I wouldn't believe anything about intel coming out with fast/good products until it has actually hit the market, and passed it's first recall.

Dude, you are one jaded cat. You sound like an old ex-girlfriend. Wow, intel must have really given you a royal scre**ing at some point.

You know of course that lots of people used to say the same sorts of things about our dearly beloved harleys. By the way, my bike was in and out of the shop, nothing major, and I'm still picking the bugs out of my teeth.
 
Re: Re: Re: They are called prototypes

Originally posted by mcrain


Dude, you are one jaded cat. You sound like an old ex-girlfriend. Wow, intel must have really given you a royal scre**ing at some point.

You know of course that lots of people used to say the same sorts of things about our dearly beloved harleys. By the way, my bike was in and out of the shop, nothing major, and I'm still picking the bugs out of my teeth.

I have never owned anything from intel, and plan to keep things that way. My bro-in-law purchased a peecee not long after I got my Mac clone. He went with the p2, since the pee3 was just coming out, very shortly after it got the recall. He made a huge mistake in getting a compaq system, which he didn't realize until he tried to load some games for his kids. Those same games ran without a hitch on my Mac :D.

Every Harley rider knows that there were the dark years of AMF and HD. Those are in the past now, and quality has been through the roof for some years now. HD bikes are the standard that all the rest are held up to. So far, I have yet to find any other bikes that have the same quality of fit and finish as the Harley's do. Then again, when you are shelling out that kind of money, you sort of expect it.

Oh yeah, I got my first bill for the loan that I got from HD for my ride... What other vehicle maker, and loan holder, puts 'new loan - thank you' on the statement??? It's the little touches that makes things so much nicer :D

Oh yeah, you are supposed to keep your mouth closed when you are going down the road... keeps the bugs out. Either that, or get a windshield or face shield for your helmet. :rolleyes:
 
Re: Re: They are called prototypes

Originally posted by AlphaTech


Adobe HAS made code within their programs to take advantage of the Altivec core. Where have you been??? That was one of the large announcements that came out not long after the G4 was introduced.

Read Carefully!

I said that Adobe has not even tried to optimize for the INTEL platform. And they still sell loads of product to the INTEL (x86) platform.

As for Athlon XP being 64-bit, I'll have to check out their website, but I bet it is 64-bit like the G4 is 128-bit:) Meaning it has to do with their respective "Velocity Engines", the actual processor is only 32-bit wide.
 
AltiVec Optimization?

Guys, what does it actually mean to optimize for AltiVec?

One way to do so is to construct your algorithms in the form of matrix mathematics because AltiVec loves matrix math and one's compiler will automatically do the Altivec coding for you once you write in terms of matrices. Here is an excellent article:

O'Reilly Network article on AltiVec Programming

Someone said earlier that the AMD and Intel single instruction multiple data (SIMD) implementations are specialized for multimedia whereas AltiVec is more generalized.

Well, can someone post something about the API's that are typically employed for AltiVec acceleration that would necessitate reprogramming?

I don't know how AMD and Intel handle matrix operations. But if they can handle them, the code would work. If their SIMD is designed to handle matrix operations, then application code may need little if any rework. Matrix math is an excellent construct for complicated operations of large quantities of data. I suspect many programmers don't fully utilize this construct as they should.

Another poster mentioned that applications should be written for the OS and not the CPU. I agree!!! Does anyone know of any specific exceptioins?

People talk of drivers requiring re-writes. Well, no ****!!! But would one of you programming geniuses out there give us a little insight into just that entails?

I hope a radically improved G4 or G5 will render all of this discussion moot. But just in case Apple does need to make a CPU switch, these discussions would prove useful. Nonetheless, they should be very instructive, making us all better Mac users.

Eirik
 
let it go

sturm375, let the pipe dream of Apple switching to an AMD processor go. It's not gonna happen. At least not processors built on the x86 architecture. Maybe, HUGE maybe, they would join the partnership and make additional Gx chips. They would need to re-tool in order to do that, which would probably be more cost then they can afford to put out. Considering how intel is the major chip for many peecee's (not because of cost, but because they have everyone snowed). AMD is holding on, and trying to make advances that put them on better footing to compete with intel in the peecee marketplace.

I would rather see IBM make the G5 or G6 processor, since they already make the G3 faster and better then motorola does.
 
Re: Re: Re: They are called prototypes

Originally posted by sturm375


Read Carefully!

I said that Adobe has not even tried to optimize for the INTEL platform. And they still sell loads of product to the INTEL (x86) platform.

As for Athlon XP being 64-bit, I'll have to check out their website, but I bet it is 64-bit like the G4 is 128-bit:) Meaning it has to do with their respective "Velocity Engines", the actual processor is only 32-bit wide.

Actually with the Photoshop 6.0.1 update the added patches for better performance on the P4...sounds like optimization to me. ;)
 
Well, can someone post something about the API's that are typically employed for AltiVec acceleration that would necessitate reprogramming?

You already found it in the article you quoted. Following is a code snippet from that article:


for (i=1; i<=n/4; i++) {
z=vec_add(x,y);
}

The vec_add part is vector addition which can only be done with a vector processor - e.g. Altivec. For those of you not into programming, vec_add is a function provided in OS X which is part of the Altivec API. Intel and AMD do not use generic vector processors, so Apple would have to somehow figure out how to view your vector info as if it were multimedia data. Not sure how to do that - I've never tried but I expect it is possible. Then, they would have to figure out how to switch between Intel and AMD because their instructions are different. I don't know how possible it would be to make the OS figure out if it was AMD or Intel or PPC on the fly and use the right instructions, I can't think of any way to do it right now. Any other systems programmer types have an idea? If they can't figure out how to do that, then the function of vec_add changes possibly to the point the app developer has to recode that part of the app.


People talk of drivers requiring re-writes. Well, no ****!!! But would one of you programming geniuses out there give us a little insight into just that entails?

You have some sort of device - say a network adapter. The device has a very specific set of parameters that must be adhered to when you talk to it for it to work properly. For example, on the network adapter there are certain memory addresses where you pick up packets that have been received. The operating system also has a very specific set of parameters that must be adhered to when a device talks to the OS for the OS to work properly (ie the APIs). For example, a certain OS function would have to be called when the network adapter receives a new packet. The driver is the code that interfaces between the function calls provided by the OS APIs and the specifics of the device itself. Every device needs a unique driver for every OS you want it to work with. (Some companies are designing hardware now where they can use one driver for an entire family of devices.) So for every device that needs to talk to the OS, someone needs to write the program - normally in C, to make that interface happen.

Hope this helps.
 
what if a vendor such as amd or intel buys the rights to altivec and make the processors...living here in silicon valley i have seen or heard of stranger things

altivec and processors made for macs constitute 12 percent of motorola's mkt and believe it or not, moto are more into embedded processors

www.motorola.com

see for yourself...moto has a great website as far as corporate websites go
 
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