Indeed. I would also agree if the quote was about businesses and not individuals.
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How Apple Minimizes its Corporate Tax Burden
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Indeed. I would also agree if the quote was about businesses and not individuals.
Heh, I wasn't complaining about that at all... I was saying I pay taxes even on my small income and I pointed out that it helped me pay rent this month to show my income isn't even covering all my expenses (I've been managing cause I have savings saved up) so I'm already at an income I'm not getting by at and I still pay taxes. Anyone who manages to hit the doesn't get taxed rate desperately needs every penny.
If Apple was NOT paying "their fair share" the IRS would be all over them.
Apple -- like any RESPONSIBLE (shouting intentional) corporation (responsible, that is, to its shareholders) -- is doing exactly what it's supposed to do. That is, to maximize shareholder value by earning as much as possible while still complying with the tax laws.
"Tax avoidance" is markedly different than is "tax evasion".
When I itemize deductions on my tax return (which I do), I am legally "avoiding" additional taxation by claiming what deductions are available to me by law.
I assume you do nothing to avoid paying the maximum amount of taxes you owe?
Wow, it's amazing how many loopholes there are in the system.
You earn money in the country you are in, pay taxes in the country you are in.
Having said that - Apple are just legally using whatever means they can to minimize impact on their business. But it does leave a burden on the individual taxpayer when billions go out the door untouched by our beloved governments.
You earn money in the country you are in, pay taxes in the country you are in.
Having said that - Apple are just legally using whatever means they can to minimize impact on their business. But it does leave a burden on the individual taxpayer when billions go out the door untouched by our beloved governments.
Of course it's a conjecture! Those are the same thing.
Agreed. You've done that.
Again agreed. But your "quote" is something I have never ever said. Instead, I have asked you two very specific questions:
1. What exact percentage of taxation on Apple's profits would you deem as no-longer-being "improper"?
2. What means did you use to come up with that number?
Bonus questions:
3. What if different people come up with different "proper" numbers? What should Apple do? Should they take the arithmetic mean of all the numbers offered by everyone and take the arithmetic mean of them?
4. The question in the background: do you realize the absurdity of some random person (or groups of person) deeming ad hoc what the "proper" rate of taxation is for some corporation?
They are not analogies; they are failed analogies. Fail, fail, and fail. In the three cases you noted, companies were deliberately hiding information. In this case, Apple is hiding nothing. The numbers are all there.
Then they serve no purpose. They are failed analogies.
I haven't said #2. What I have asked you to do is to demonstrate why you think it's unethical, and you gave us three failed analogies.
They were not analogies. They were failed analogies.
They are not analogies. All three were fundamentally flawed. They did absolutely nothing to make your case.
I don't know how to say it any more plainly than that.
I asked you to provide analogies that were not fundamentally flawed. Do you have any workable analogies, or have you given up on that approach?
Agreed. And I have asked you two very specific questions to help you understand why your conjecture is fundamentally flawed. Please answer them in your reply. I invite you to also answer the Bonus Questions. Thank you.
The premise is that the government is somehow entitled to those funds.
Brilliant. I learned something new today. Thank you.
Is that where "Talk to the Hand" comes from?
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Kudos to an excellent post.
The keyword here is "hypocrisy" -- Do as we tell you to do, not as we ourselves do...
DC won't do anything to change tax laws until it stops providing them votes - it's always, always, always about the votes. Everything politicians do (except a select few) is to keep them in office, in power, and wealthy. Nancy Pelosi attended FIVE HUNDRED fundraisers last year. I know she's not the only one with such an obscene number, and both sides of the aisle are equally guilty. If they spent as much effort and energy on helping the people instead of helping the party we'd be in much different circumstances today.
The government spends money at a near incalculable rate - all you who cry for the rich to 'pay their fair share' are just being puppets for the politicians - they don't care if the rich pay any more or less, they just want to tug at your heart strings to buy your vote to keep them in power. As long as they have that power and status, their financial situation will always be cushy and posh. They don't care how bankrupt the nation becomes, if they have their power and wealth they are satisfied.
If the US Gov seized ALL of Apples money in the bank, not just taxed them more, but every single penny Apple has in the bank, it would fund the government for less than 2 weeks.
The issue isn't corps and people paying more taxes, it's how much the government spends.
The government spends money at a near incalculable rate - all you who cry for the rich to 'pay their fair share' are just being puppets for the politicians - they don't care if the rich pay any more or less, they just want to tug at your heart strings to buy your vote to keep them in power. As long as they have that power and status, their financial situation will always be cushy and posh. They don't care how bankrupt the nation becomes, if they have their power and wealth they are satisfied.
If the US Gov seized ALL of Apples money in the bank, not just taxed them more, but every single penny Apple has in the bank, it would fund the government for less than 2 weeks.
The issue isn't corps and people paying more taxes, it's how much the government spends.
In the UK if your dog attacks a burglar in your own home, YOU the owner faces 2 years in jail or a £5000 fine, by your thinking that's also perfectly fine as it's law.
So to abide by the law we will lock our dogs up to allow burglars to rob us.
See how stupid that law is, can you imagine locking your dog up to abide by a law.
Apple is twisting the law, I would also question the legality of corporations paying lobbyists to ensure tax loopholes remain in place.
Exactly. This does not apply to the corporate sect (it is intended for the individual). Yet the Supreme Court 5/4 ruling that acknowledges corporations as persons, I suppose it may now be applicable. Just because it's law, sometimes doesn't make it right. Corporations can now give unlimited funds to back any politician/political group as persons, thereby abolishing campaign reform and further placing corporate interests in our government. Justice Ginsburg was so upset over this ruling...
Whether we agree or not, we are all owned. Either by the government or the corporations that have paid off politicians to further their agenda. It's sad that we're fighting each other based on stereotypes in the two party system instead of working with each other. Revolutions are not started with a divided nation, and we are a divided nation. We are so busy fighting each other over tax laws and other irrelevancies that we have lost sight, all the while corporations, lobbyists and politicians have been colluding in order to further personal wealth and power. We have let them. We are the ones to blame. Not Apple, not the government, us. Our apathy. Our misguided anger towards one another. Our inability for civil discourse. Our pandering to political ideology and rhetoric without question. This is where it has gotten us.
Our founding fathers established our nation by the people, for the people. Our government is mandated by checks and balances in order to maintain its function for the people. Now replace government with corporations, the two are no longer mutually exclusive. Some of us should re-read the United States Constitution. We have given up a lot of our freedom without even realizing it. Lest we not forget the most important aspect to our nation:
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Honestly, the less tax burden that Apple has, the lower the prices of goods will be, which is better for the consumer.
We really just need to overhaul our tax system in the U.S., after all there are more words in our tax code than all of the works of Shakespeare combined.
We really just need to overhaul our tax system in the U.S., after all there are more words in our tax code than all of the works of Shakespeare combined.
So true, and not just in the states. If they stopped trying to grab Apple's cash and instead took a page out of their book in terms of efficiency and competence, they'd likely gain more by wasting less.
Of course not. Feel free to fix the leaks. Just make sure your motives aren't based on jealousy. Jealousy is a dangerous motivation. I wish newspapers wouldn't pull that lever so often.
Irrational
It would be irrational for Apple to not take advantage of the U.S. tax code which favors the large corporations, and certainly lead to a competive disadvantage if they did not do so.
That does not make it ethically or morally right to do so, however.
I think Apple makes some great products, and I have purchased many of them over the last 28 years. And as a corporation they seem to be more responsive to consumer concerns than most businesses. The fact of the matter, though, is that as the world uses up its remaining scraps of fossil fuel all high tech companies, including Apple, are on the verge of melt-down. Probably not within my lifetime, but certainly within the next 50 years.
http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/3/6/135437/7111
It would be irrational for Apple to not take advantage of the U.S. tax code which favors the large corporations, and certainly lead to a competive disadvantage if they did not do so.
That does not make it ethically or morally right to do so, however.
I think Apple makes some great products, and I have purchased many of them over the last 28 years. And as a corporation they seem to be more responsive to consumer concerns than most businesses. The fact of the matter, though, is that as the world uses up its remaining scraps of fossil fuel all high tech companies, including Apple, are on the verge of melt-down. Probably not within my lifetime, but certainly within the next 50 years.
http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/3/6/135437/7111
Someone has to pay for your wars......
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Didnt they ignore the times for the ipad school books or something similar? Prob why they r anti apple at the mo. Petty jealousy is all that it is
Don't be naive. Do you really have a simplistic School House Rock understanding of how a bill becomes a law? How I described it is exactly how it works. I have plenty of personal experience here, but read Showdown at Gucci Gulch as a good primer. It's and oldie but goodie. Still very valid today.
99% of the time most representatives have less than a complete knowledge of what's in a bill (recall Nancy Pelosi saying about the health care bill that Congress needs to pass it so it can find out whats in in. Sounds strange, but that is reality on Cap Hill.) It's the staff and lobbyists that largely control what goes into legislation couple with member's earmarks gained by being team players for their Com Chair or other member in high leadership.
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I've started a new thread (https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=14796010#post14796010) and I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts. I'm basically asking what services (if any) you think the government should provide and how these services should be funded. I also ask what laws & regulations a government should have & enforce.
I'm reminded of a scene from the "documentary" Fahrenheit 9/11 where Michael Moore talks to that one senator/congressman about the PATRIOT Act. The senator basically said that if they took the time to read the entire bill, nothing would get done.
I'm reminded of a scene from the "documentary" Fahrenheit 9/11 where Michael Moore talks to that one senator/congressman about the PATRIOT Act. The senator basically said that if they took the time to read the entire bill, nothing would get done.
The issue at hand is not what percentage of tax Apple ought to be paying, so your question is besides the point. Th New York Times claimed that:
New York Times said:
So the issue regarding Apple's behavior is whether or not Apple circumvented, through legal means, the intent of the nation's tax code. That is the problem, not the percentage they end up paying.
FloatingBones said:
Yes I would recognize the absurdity of that scenario, but that isn't applicable to what we are talking about. We aren't trying to determine how much tax Apple should pay, we are asking if Apple should be circumventing the nation's tax code.
I'm sorry if you cannot remember what you yourself say, but you said in post 580, and I quote:
The context of the discussion implies that your last sentence is claiming that because Apple was operating legally, they did nothing immoral. That is precisely what I called premise 2 and attacked using the analogies. If you now wish to reformulate or clarify that statement, please feel free to do so.
There are some fundamental truths those in denial avoid.
This is Apple we're talking about.
I might like their products but not their business practices. That's my right.
Fact is Apple has a cult like following who truly believe they can do no wrong. Therefore Apple gets a pass in many cases.
Apple will do anything possible to squeeze every penny out, so as to maximize profits. There's nothing wrong with that.
Taxes & where they keep their money is their business, the only time I disagree with them is when they con the customers on certain product faults by putting a spin on things Or go silent and hide.
This is Apple we're talking about.
I might like their products but not their business practices. That's my right.
Fact is Apple has a cult like following who truly believe they can do no wrong. Therefore Apple gets a pass in many cases.
Apple will do anything possible to squeeze every penny out, so as to maximize profits. There's nothing wrong with that.
Taxes & where they keep their money is their business, the only time I disagree with them is when they con the customers on certain product faults by putting a spin on things Or go silent and hide.
No one is contesting what you here say. The point I made is these considerations you make here, and on prior occasions, mitigate what you've said elsewhere. In other words, whether you realize so or not, you are contradicting yourself. I simply pointed out where so that you could clarify things. You appear to miss the point here though. Stay focused.
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honestly, a lot of the people here are a joke. saying apple is unethical and are avoiding taxes, blah, blah, blah. it's all ********. apple is doing nothing more than everyone here does every year when doing their taxes- trying to lower their tax burden. granted, it is on a lot bigger scale, but it 's the EXACT same thing. i can promise that everyone here claims everything they can legally claim on their taxes so they don't owe the government more money. grow the hell up.
Part of me doubts that. Even if the corporate tax rate goes down to 0%, and people still buy Apple products at the current prices, why drop prices? That just means more profits. That goes for anyone selling goods. Why sell something for $5 when you can sell it for $10?
Lets look at the apple effect, not what they pay in taxes
Shipping from apple to to US
Long shore man
Truck Drivers
Warehouse workers
More truck drivers
Stock people
Stores sales people
Training staff
Payroll and sales tax is paid on all of this.
These people spend money and pay taxes, think of life without a successful company
Shipping from apple to to US
Long shore man
Truck Drivers
Warehouse workers
More truck drivers
Stock people
Stores sales people
Training staff
Payroll and sales tax is paid on all of this.
These people spend money and pay taxes, think of life without a successful company
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I wish people would stop spewing this nonsense. Prices are as high as the market allows. If Apple paid less taxes they would still charge you the same amount, but they would make more profit. If Apple paid more taxes, they would still charge you the same amount, they would just make less profit, perhaps 20 billion instead of 30 billion a year.
What's wrong with Apple making more money? Government wont do anything good with it.