How can one possibly buy 2018 MBPs knowing the T2 chip Kernel Panic Lottery?

pubmsu

macrumors regular
Original poster
Dec 9, 2014
203
50
Sydney, Australia
Hi everyone,

I have been planning to get a 13" 2018 for some time, which will replace my 2016 15". I want the better keyboard and less weight. But it is simply a lottery now that the KP issue is still unresolved across multiple products and KPs can start after the return window.

Not to mention the still-unreliable keyboard.

So, how can one possibly buy any machine with T2 knowing there is a chance it will be a long and frustrating back and forth with Apple support, with disruption of work and an unnecessary stress in life?
 
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Chancha

macrumors 6502a
Mar 19, 2014
919
790
The T2 pretty much prohibited me from considering all new Macs for my studio (safe the iMac 2017 but it is due for a CPU update). Another issue is that I am in Hong Kong, where we have loose consumer laws, and Apple has no 14-day unconditional return policy like in the USA. If I get a lemon, I have to go through Apple support / genius bar endlessly without the option of returning and forget that it happened.
 

funkysmurf

macrumors member
Sep 11, 2006
33
6
Sydney
The odds of you ending up with a faulty MBP probably aren't that good.

Since we, the average Joe consumers, don't know the failure rate of Apple's products, we can only play the guessing game.

Consider the numbers I'm mostly getting out of thin air:

Apple ships around 4 million macs per quarter.
https://247wallst.com/technology-3/2018/07/30/macs-q3-2018/

Let's take a conservative approach and say that it's 10 million per year instead of 16 million.
There are 7 mac product groups (MacBook, MacBook Air, MacBook Pro, iMac, iMac Pro, Mac Pro and Mac mini).

Staying on the conservative side, let's also say that these sell in equal quantities (so 10 million divided by 7).
That's about 1.4 million MBPs.

The MacRumors forums has about 190 000 threads in its notebooks category.
Let's say that each thread is strictly related to issues with the MBPs and that each thread is started by a unique user.
Ignoring that there are 3 product groups there to remain ultra conservative, that would translate to about 13.6% of MBPs sold having issues.

Of course, the above ignores the fact that MacRumors isn't the only place on the Internet where people report issues with their MBPs and a range of other things, but you get my point :)

If you were playing the lottery and your chances of winning a few million dollars were about 86%, you'd probably feel good about those odds :D

You may already be aware that the consumer laws in Australia are pretty good, so chances are that you'd only have to consider the frustration, inconvenience and hassles involved with returns or repairs. As you rightly pointed out, this can be stressful, but you have similar risks with literally every manufacturer (or any product you buy generally).

I get that there's a certain luxury association when it comes to Apple products, which carries slightly different expectations, but I probably wouldn't let this kind of thing be the driving influence behind a purchase of a brand new product that carries a warranty.
 

SDColorado

Contributor
Nov 6, 2011
4,268
4,212
Highlands Ranch, CO
I ultimately decided not to stick with one. After various issues with 3 previous ones, I decided to try a 4th and honestly I had zero issues with the 4th (within the 14-day return period). But my faith in the new models was gone and I didn't feel as though I could trust it for the long haul.

I decided to sit this round out. Wait for a T3 ship and another generational change in the butterfly keyboard (or replacement).

We will see what happens in 2020?
 
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BigMcGuire

Contributor
Jan 10, 2012
4,617
5,665
California
I like my 2017 MBP. :) Sorry, not related but reading Macrumors it's amazing my laptop doesn't just poof die. My keyboard is defying life expectancy as well.

I really hope tech settles down by the time I look to upgrade this thing (6+ years)!

Yeah, if I had to do it all over again, I probably wouldn't drop $3,000. I think I'd go cheaper so if I had to replace it, it wouldn't hurt so bad. Companies are putting profits way above longevity. But out of all the companies, Apple stands behind its products a bit better than most.
 
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Fishrrman

macrumors P6
Feb 20, 2009
17,179
5,536
OP asks:
"So, how can one possibly buy any machine with T2 knowing there is a chance it will be a long and frustrating back and forth with Apple support, with disruption of work and an unnecessary stress in life?"

Cue up Clint Eastwood as Dirty Harry:
"Well, punk.... do ya feel lucky....?"
 

ThisBougieLife

macrumors 68020
Jan 21, 2016
2,010
6,336
SF Bay Area, California
Because I'm an idiot, is that what you want to hear?! :D

I guess I'm taking a gamble that with the long holiday return window, if the new Vega MBP I just ordered has the KP issue, it will show up before then.

I wish the new MBP didn't come with the crash chip. What is the necessity of it? It's not like MacBook Pros got along so horribly without these "co-processors". Apple doesn't know what they're doing anymore. Either move to ARM or stay with Intel, but this hybrid crap isn't working. As I said in the other thread, the problem is probably hardware related; some of the chips are just made faultily. It's not something they can fix with a software update.
 

mdnz

macrumors 6502
Apr 14, 2010
341
688
The Netherlands
Because I'm an idiot, is that what you want to hear?! :D

I guess I'm taking a gamble that with the long holiday return window, if the new Vega MBP I just ordered has the KP issue, it will show up before then.

I wish the new MBP didn't come with the crash chip. What is the necessity of it? It's not like MacBook Pros got along so horribly without these "co-processors". Apple doesn't know what they're doing anymore. Either move to ARM or stay with Intel, but this hybrid crap isn't working. As I said in the other thread, the problem is probably hardware related; some of the chips are just made faultily. It's not something they can fix with a software update.
They use the chip to block 3rd party repairs under the flag of "security".
 

raqball

macrumors 68000
Sep 11, 2016
1,948
8,890
Because I'm an idiot, is that what you want to hear?! :D

I guess I'm taking a gamble that with the long holiday return window, if the new Vega MBP I just ordered has the KP issue, it will show up before then.

I wish the new MBP didn't come with the crash chip. What is the necessity of it? It's not like MacBook Pros got along so horribly without these "co-processors". Apple doesn't know what they're doing anymore. Either move to ARM or stay with Intel, but this hybrid crap isn't working. As I said in the other thread, the problem is probably hardware related; some of the chips are just made faultily. It's not something they can fix with a software update.
Same here... The holiday return period is great considering these machines not only are having the kernel issues, but KB issues as well.....

So far no problems on my TB but it's only a week old...... Pretty sad when I can be happy that a week old computer is not showing problems considering the price I paid for it.,.....
 

Plutonius

macrumors 604
Feb 22, 2003
7,839
5,903
New Hampshire, USA
So, how can one possibly buy any machine with T2 knowing there is a chance it will be a long and frustrating back and forth with Apple support, with disruption of work and an unnecessary stress in life?
You don't buy any computers from Apple until they announce the cause of the T2 Bridge OS failure (hardware, firmware, software) and have announced a final fix.

Until Apple makes an announcement, I'll believe that all Apple products containing a T2 are prone to fail eventually with the Bridge OS failure (i.e. even if you don't have the T2 Bridge OS failures now, there is a good probability that you will have them in the future).
 

Stephen.R

macrumors 65816
Nov 2, 2018
1,367
906
Thailand
I’ve just swapped from a 2011 MBP17 to a 2018 MBP15. The old one has had three mainboards so far, because of failed GPUs. My previous 2007 MBP17 also had multiple main board replacements because of failed GPUs. Every single one was covered by apple, even when their “guidelines” stated that the replacement boards shouldn’t suffer the same problem. In both cases I had some of those repairs done out of warranty at zero cost to me.

If there is a systemic issue with hardware in the new MBPs, history tells me Apple will do the right thing.
 
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filmbuff

macrumors 6502a
Jan 5, 2011
807
141
I'm out of the loop, if this bridge os thing causes a crash does the computer reboot normally or is it damaged? If you send it to Apple do they replace hardware? Software? Does the fix work if you get it repaired?
 
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cfdlab

macrumors regular
Feb 26, 2008
117
151
I would not buy this from my own money. I did because I need it for work and is paid from my grant. It has way too many issues and usability problems for me to take the risk.
 
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dwfaust

macrumors 603
Jul 3, 2011
5,482
6,178
Well in my case, the issue wasn't really known, sadly, I was an early adopter, but not so sadly, my MBP has been rock solid. I personally wouldn't gamble nearly 3,000 had I known
This right here. I purchased early... but the reports of the KPs and Bridge OS stuff started to surface between the time I clicked "buy" and took delivery... but, like you, had I known about the issues, I would have passed... and like you, I've been lucky and have had NO issues whatsoever with my 13" MBP.
 
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mr.anthonyramos

macrumors 6502a
Apr 25, 2015
504
366
Hong Kong
So, I am from Hong Kong too. There is no return policy but there is an instant replacement policy within the first 14 days if something should be wrong with your item. That should keep you relatively safe. The reason why we lost the privilege last year was because of a bunch of mainlanders taking their iPhones and then returning them with changed internals and parts.
 
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macloverHK

macrumors member
May 16, 2018
37
116
Hong Kong
So, I am from Hong Kong too. There is no return policy but there is an instant replacement policy within the first 14 days if something should be wrong with your item. That should keep you relatively safe. The reason why we lost the privilege last year was because of a bunch of mainlanders taking their iPhones and then returning them with changed internals and parts.
But only if staff members of Apple Store admit the fault -- so if Apple denies that T2 chip is causing a problem, or that they insist it's a software problem, you won't be able to get a replacement no matter it's in the first 14 days or not. I even got an answer from the Genius Bar "update to beta version" to solve my problem (what the f?)
Did I just pay HK$17788 (~US$2272) to get on beta software?
 

Chancha

macrumors 6502a
Mar 19, 2014
919
790
But only if staff members of Apple Store admit the fault -- so if Apple denies that T2 chip is causing a problem, or that they insist it's a software problem, you won't be able to get a replacement no matter it's in the first 14 days or not. I even got an answer from the Genius Bar "update to beta version" to solve my problem (what the f?)
Did I just pay HK$17788 (~US$2272) to get on beta software?
I saw similar reports over in the MBP T2 KP thread as well, the worst one was even after Genius Bay took the machine in, they "couldn't reproduce the error" and just returned it to the customer with just a fresh reinstall. Obviously KP keeps happening afterwards since the problem is on firmware or hardware level. I find it pretty astonishing, as all KP are clearly logged into the console even we can access, but then Apple themselves cannot be assed to diagnose with those logs like your old school trouble shooting. So yes, Apple's "service" surrounding Apple Care is dandy, but it only applies when they themselves admit there is an issue, and proceed to train their "geniuses" to help it.
 
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curmudgeonette

macrumors 6502a
Jan 28, 2016
505
325
California
I wish the new MBP didn't come with the crash chip. What is the necessity of it? It's not like MacBook Pros got along so horribly without these "co-processors".
The T2 is replacing the SMC, Apple's SSD controller (itself likely an ARM chip), and maybe even a camera image processor. It also enables TouchID which otherwise would have required a T1, i.e. T2 also includes T1.
 
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Plutonius

macrumors 604
Feb 22, 2003
7,839
5,903
New Hampshire, USA
I saw similar reports over in the MBP T2 KP thread as well, the worst one was even after Genius Bay took the machine in, they "couldn't reproduce the error" and just returned it to the customer with just a fresh reinstall. Obviously KP keeps happening afterwards since the problem is on firmware or hardware level. I find it pretty astonishing, as all KP are clearly logged into the console even we can access, but then Apple themselves cannot be assed to diagnose with those logs like your old school trouble shooting. So yes, Apple's "service" surrounding Apple Care is dandy, but it only applies when they themselves admit there is an issue, and proceed to train their "geniuses" to help it.
The T2 OS Bridge fault has been going on awhile since the iMac Pro and I can't see any way that Apple doesn't have a complete understanding of the problem. Even after all the software and firmware updates, the fault is still occurring which leads me to believe that the T2 chip has hardware issues (either design or fabrication errors).

I would not mind as much if Apple addressed the problem and gave clear instructions to the Apple stores on how to handle the issue.
 
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