How do laptops from major manufacturers compared with the MBP?

[hajime]

Hello, I have been using Apple's laptops since the Apple II c. I don' know about the products for the past two years but in general the build quality of the MacBook Pro are very good. Even there were some hardware faults in some models, Apple took responsibilities as long as we got Apple Care. Unfortunately the 2016-2017 ones are not my cup of tea. Regardless of the OS, are laptops made by other manufacturers (such as Razer Blade, Microsoft, current Lenovo, Asus, etc.) really that bad in terms of quality and after sales surfaces? How long do those laptops usually last?

Thinkpads were good under IBM. (The only complaint was that the black coating on the surface of the case got worn off quickly. So, one could see shinny corners/edges on the case.) Don't know about Lenovo.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

In general they have lower longevity, poor support and in my opinion poor prioritisation of features. Of course each individual machine will be a case all on its own so this generalisation is just that a generalisation. If I had to buy a windows laptop I'd probably get the XPS 15.

This is pretty good guide to the best laptops around at the moment.
http://www.techradar.com/news/mobile-computing/laptops/best-laptops-1304361

 

[hajime]

Thanks. We should also look for the best laptops that can be turned to Hackintosh.

 

[Hater]

In general they have lower longevity, poor support and in my opinion poor prioritisation of features. Of course each individual machine will be a case all on its own so this generalisation is just that a generalisation. If I had to buy a windows laptop I'd probably get the XPS 15.

This is pretty good guide to the best laptops around at the moment.
http://www.techradar.com/news/mobile-computing/laptops/best-laptops-1304361

Interesting comment, considering that Windows laptops range from $50 yum-cha netbooks made in a sweatshop all the way up to £10,000 mobile workstations with 2 hour SLA support contracts.

I've been running an HP ProBook hackintosh since 2012, as the 2012 Retina MBP's moved to soldered components so I couldn't continue with Apple laptops - have had no issues thus far, but with it's age and almost 10 hour a day usage I'm sure i'll start having issues at some point. Being a ProBook aimed at business professionals it's not as slim/light or pretty as a 2012 MBP, but it gets the job done reliably.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

Interesting comment, considering that Windows laptops range from $50 yum-cha netbooks made in a sweatshop all the way up to £10,000 mobile workstations with 2 hour SLA support contracts.

Just going by the reports from IBM and WALMART both showing that they are swapping to macs where they can because the total cost of ownership is less than windows machines, they are using multiple manufacturers and configurations across their businesses and fhave both found in trials that macs cost less to run especially in support time, maintenance and longevity whether they run OSX or windows.

 

[Hater]

Just going by the reports from IBM and WALMART both showing that they are swapping to macs where they can because the total cost of ownership is less than windows machines, they are using multiple manufacturers and configurations across their businesses and fhave both found in trials that macs cost less to run especially in support time, maintenance and longevity whether they run OSX or windows.

Every company I work for has had support contracts for supply with either HP, Dell or Lenovo, you get a range of options with complete SCCM driver bundles, it's all one hardware configuration across workstations and laptops, with the same main build having differing options depending on usage, eg) you can get G3 series workstations with an i3 and 4GB of RAM in a SFF or a quad i7 with 32GB in a tower but it's all the same base system.

Apple just doesn't supply the hardware most places need, and none of it is business grade anymore.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

Every company I work for has had support contracts for supply with either HP, Dell or Lenovo, you get a range of options with complete SCCM driver bundles, it's all one hardware configuration across workstations and laptops, with the same main build having differing options depending on usage, eg) you can get G3 series workstations with an i3 and 4GB of RAM in a SFF or a quad i7 with 32GB in a tower but it's all the same base system.

Apple just doesn't supply the hardware most places need, and none of it is business grade anymore.

Really? I have never worked for any company from a ****** little Indian perfumery to GlaxoSmithKline to the nhs ( the worlds bggest employer) that used any computers even close to the specs of a mac. They paid through the nose for them and spent a fortune in IT keeping them running. Any software can be loaded on a mac and the hardware will match anything but the most high end workstations (see iMac Pro). All reports of longevity and reliability can have ever seen showe Apple computers way out ahead of the competition it’s that simple.

I have no idea what you mean by business grade I haven’t used a work computer that was as good as my home machine in 10 years, so business grade to me just means rubbish!

 

[Hater]

Really? I have never worked for any company from a ****** little Indian perfumery to GlaxoSmithKline to the nhs ( the worlds bggest employer) that used any computers even close to the specs of a mac. They paid through the nose for them and spent a fortune in IT keeping them running. Any software can be loaded on a mac and the hardware will match anything but the most high end workstations (see iMac Pro). All reports of longevity and reliability can have ever seen showe Apple computers way out ahead of the competition it’s that simple.

I have no idea what you mean by business grade I haven’t used a work computer that was as good as my home machine in 10 years, so business grade to me just means rubbish!

You're confusing home use with fleet use - You can spec an HP Zbook with 128GB of RAM if you want, right now - That's fine, but if your employer doesn't refresh the fleet (depends on the contract) then that 128GB RAM laptop is going to be pretty dull in 10 years time.

Loads of companies hold onto old hardware for aaaaaages simply due to costs - Some companies still use XP. If they were using Macs, they'd still be using Macs way slower than the one you currently use.

You should see some of the Microsoft Extended Support contracts floating around the place, we're talking tens of millions spent just to keep old kit in support.

"Any software can be loaded" - No, just no. At home, sure - But try getting into Cognos builds and things like that. Just no.

Apple doesn't even provide support options for their hardware like the big players too, they don't need to, they've pulled out of the professional/business space with the death of the xServe etc. OpenDirectory integration is way behind.

You are very correct in the fact that only supporting one set of hardware is much easier/cheaper than supporting many, but that's exactly why all of the big players in this space do exactly that. Just because they provide 10,000 different (crap) options for the home user does not mean the business lines they provide are the same, with the amount of money some of these support options are worth it would be silly...

Even custom orders can't be done through Apple, things like laptops ordered with a 4K display but no webcam, no fingerprint scanner, no Bluetooth/GPS, no USB and no touchscreen are an every day thing around these parts, wereas Apple just don't provide this service anymore. You used to be able to in the G4 days. I know such a laptop would make 0 sense for home use, but when you're a bank working with sensitive material, such use cases start to creep in...

Does Apple even provide wired keyboards and mouses anymore? Imagine trying to keep 10,000 different wireless keyboards and mouses 1) in the building and 2) charged and ready to go. Even that would be a nightmare. Man.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

You're confusing home use with fleet use - You can spec an HP Zbook with 128GB of RAM if you want, right now - That's fine, but if your employer doesn't refresh the fleet (depends on the contract) then that 128GB RAM laptop is going to be pretty dull in 10 years time.

Loads of companies hold onto old hardware for aaaaaages simply due to costs - Some companies still use XP. If they were using Macs, they'd still be using Macs way slower than the one you currently use.

You should see some of the Microsoft Extended Support contracts floating around the place, we're talking tens of millions spent just to keep old kit in support.

"Any software can be loaded" - No, just no. At home, sure - But try getting into Cognos builds and things like that. Just no.

Apple doesn't even provide support options for their hardware like the big players too, they don't need to, they've pulled out of the professional/business space with the death of the xServe etc. OpenDirectory integration is way behind.

You are very correct in the fact that only supporting one set of hardware is much easier/cheaper than supporting many, but that's exactly why all of the big players in this space do exactly that. Just because they provide 10,000 different (crap) options for the home user does not mean the business lines they provide are the same, with the amount of money some of these support options are worth it would be silly...

Even custom orders can't be done through Apple, things like laptops ordered with a 4K display but no webcam, no fingerprint scanner, no Bluetooth/GPS, no USB and no touchscreen are an every day thing around these parts, wereas Apple just don't provide this service anymore. You used to be able to in the G4 days. I know such a laptop would make 0 sense for home use, but when you're a bank working with sensitive material, such use cases start to creep in...

I’m just going by the reports that I have seen from companies trialing macs and my own experience and that is that macs are far more reliable and easier to use and run, and have better specs than the standard business workstations by some margin. Specialist equipmemt is few and far between in any company and will always be bought on a case by case basis. When IBM say macs work out cheaper you have to believe them.

But hey this is my opinion and my interpretation of the facts I have found, you have a different one and you are failing to answer the OP’s question, are macs better for them in terms of longevity and reliability, I think all the evidence for that says yes.

If you disagree then say why you disagree and present your evidence.

Part of my evidence for this opinion is the reports saying just that from some huge companies using a lot of computers. Also from consumer reports on failure rates for various manufacturers.

 

[Hater]

I’m just going by the reports that I have seen from companies trialing macs and my own experience and that is that macs are far more reliable and easier to use and run, and have better specs than the standard business workstations by some margin. Specialist equipmemt is few and far between in any company and will always be bought on a case by case basis. When IBM say macs work out cheaper you have to believe them.

But hey this is my opinion and my interpretation of the facts I have found, you have a different one and you are failing to answer the OP’s question, are macs better for them in terms of longevity and reliability, I think all the evidence for that says yes.

If you disagree then say why you disagree and present your evidence.

Part of my evidence for this opinion is the reports saying just that from some huge companies using a lot of computers. Also from consumer reports on failure rates for various manufacturers.

IBM doesn't produce business workstations anymore, they sold the business off to Lenovo in 2005 - So are we talking end user costs or 3rd party provider costs?

If what you said was true, there would be mass migrations - There hasn't been, nor will there be. There's a shift away from Apple in the professional media spaces due to the lack of professional options.

I never answered the OP, as I have never addressed the OP. I answered/addressed you and your claim that all Windows based hardware was unreliable, which... well it depends on metrics, really. It's not an untrue statement due to the complete swathe of bad quality hardware out there compared to the good stuff, and it depends on which hardware/usage patterns/uptime/etc. Use yumcha computer store Windows computers are yes, they're going to be hell to look after and keep going, but lose a hard drive in a SFF workstations and it's a wait for the computer man to pop the lid and replace the component with another off the shelf component, PXE boot it and off you go.

Performance isn't really a metric as not only are all of the current generation machines using processors faster than what Apple currently offer, but there are swathes of options -slower- than what the lowest spec iMac offers, and hence cheaper - these slower computers making up a majority of what business machines are used for. Apple doesn't even offer a thin client - Are you really going to buy £999 iMacs to replace £220 machines?

 

[Samuelsan2001]

https://www.macworld.com/article/3133544/hardware/how-switching-to-macs-is-paying-off-for-ibm.html

http://appleinsider.com/articles/17...ploy-100000-macs-to-save-on-employee-pc-costs



Replacing $220 with iMacs? That's what ibm have done 90,000 of them so far, because they work out cheaper, but i’d rather not hijack this thread from the OP, so maybe they will find these an interesting read too.

And for your consumer interest


https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/which-laptops-are-the-most-reliable/

Apple topped this report for years but it doesn’t really take reliability and longevity into account. They have dropped off due to some great product releases from Other manufacturers this year, of course how long they last and how reliable they are is another matter. (never personally used a Lenovo I didn’t despise but that personal taste).

https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/...55.1440848686.1509021172-770008923.1509021172

 

[960design]

Don't know about Lenovo.

Lenovo is at both ends of the spectrum. Inexpensive Lenovo's are horrible, top of the line are amazing.
Asus Zenbooks are top notch, the only drawback is the operating system.

 

[Hater]

https://www.macworld.com/article/3133544/hardware/how-switching-to-macs-is-paying-off-for-ibm.html

http://appleinsider.com/articles/17...ploy-100000-macs-to-save-on-employee-pc-costs



Replacing $220 with iMacs? That's what ibm have done 90,000 of them so far, because they work out cheaper, but i’d rather not hijack this thread from the OP, so maybe they will find these an interesting read too.

And for your consumer interest


https://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/which-laptops-are-the-most-reliable/

Apple topped this report for years but it doesn’t really take reliability and longevity into account. They have dropped off due to some great product releases from Other manufacturers this year, of course how long they last and how reliable they are is another matter. (never personally used a Lenovo I didn’t despise but that personal taste).

https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/...55.1440848686.1509021172-770008923.1509021172

I've only quickly looked at your links as I'm at work and am in between workloads so I only have a few minutes to browse before back to work, but I see a few gleaming issues:

Your Walmart stats don't take into account the overall number of PC vs. Macs deployed, and it doesn't outline what the support call is for, and it doesn't specify what a "deskside" support call is, if it's software related, hardware related, etc. It states that each deployed Mac saves the company money, but it doesn't state with why - Is it a matter of streamlined remote support processes, consistent install bases, etc

ie) Yes, if you're only looking after brand new Macs and you're trying to support Windows laptops ranging from 1995 to brand new, there is going to be savings to be had... but those same savings could be had from rolling out brand new Windows kit. That said, maybe they're only talking about brand new kit vs. brand new kit? It doesn't say.

Your second link is talking about home users, I've already stated that 99% of Windows laptops aimed at home users are crap. I don't know much about home users, I use business laptops at home as well (Although, unlike at work, they run MacOS.)

A $280 saving -per machine- is a big deal, we'd see a lot more talk about this if the numbers were as vibrant as your pro-apple sites make it out to be. Maybe we'll see more companies jump on board soon?

Doubt it, but hey I'm open to the idea.

 

[philosopherdog]

I don’t buy the premise that current MBP are somehow inferior. Is this based on forum info or real world experience. I’ve owned tons of Macs. The current MBP is miles beyond anything they’ve made in terms of build quality and features. So I would get my facts straight. If you want another brand go for it but I don’t buy the premise. Most of the bad news about current MBP is from people talking out their butts.

 

[hajime]

Lenovo is at both ends of the spectrum. Inexpensive Lenovo's are horrible, top of the line are amazing.
Asus Zenbooks are top notch, the only drawback is the operating system.

I know one Asus user complaining the fan noise. Is it depending on the model?

 

[NT1440]

I know one Asus user complaining the fan noise. Is it depending on the model?

It's always depending on the model.

I just started migrating my workplace from trash HP "Probooks" to Lenovo T470 and T570's. Couldn't be happier.

 

[960design]

I know one Asus user complaining the fan noise. Is it depending on the model?

No fan noise on the three touchscreen 4k Zenbooks used for mobile video production / streaming:
https://www.asus.com/us/Laptops/ASUS-ZenBook-Pro-UX501VW/
Absolutely required to be silent.

Thinking of picking up one of these ( this year ):
https://www.asus.com/us/Laptops/ASUS-ZenBook-Pro-UX550VE/
Not sure about the fan noise on this one.

 

[NT1440]

No fan noise on the three touchscreen 4k Zenbooks used for mobile video production / streaming:
https://www.asus.com/us/Laptops/ASUS-ZenBook-Pro-UX501VW/
Absolutely required to be silent.

Thinking of picking up one of these ( this year ):
https://www.asus.com/us/Laptops/ASUS-ZenBook-Pro-UX550VE/
Not sure about the fan noise on this one.

Big fan of Asus here. Like any PC company they offer absolute crap in the extreme low end (you're an idiot if you buy a sub $400 computer unless its for a kid or specifically meant to break) but their high end is lovely. The Zenbook like is top notch.

If I ever left macOS (highly unlikely) Asus or Lenovo would be the only PC OEMs I'd even consider.

 

[hajime]

Big fan of Asus here. Like any PC company they offer absolute crap in the extreme low end (you're an idiot if you buy a sub $400 computer unless its for a kid or specifically meant to break) but their high end is lovely. The Zenbook like is top notch.

If I ever left macOS (highly unlikely) Asus or Lenovo would be the only PC OEMs I'd even consider.

Why not Microsoft's Surface line of laptops?

 

[NT1440]

Why not Microsoft's Surface line of laptops?

Personally I'm just not a fan. We have one Surface Book and Surface Pro 4 in the office that I haven't heard any complains about, but MS doesn't have a track record in my eyes (I've been working (officially) in IT since I was 18, 8 years now) when it comes to hardware.

That's not to knock them, the machines seem fully capable, I just have absolutely nothing to go off of in my personal experience as far as hardware longevity goes. By the time the Surface 6 or so comes out I may have come to a conclusion, but I don't have enough experience with their hardware personally at this point to be comfortable recommending it.

 

[960design]

Why not Microsoft's Surface line of laptops?

This is two or three year old experience, so most likely things have changed. We purchased four top of the line Surface and four top of the line iPads. Two weeks later I had three surface tablets back in my office and requests for iPad quotes. Six months later the last surface tablet returned and a quote for a new windows laptop was requested.

Now, we have over 6000 iPads deployed and about two top of the line current surface tablets. The hardware looks fantastic, I really think it all comes down to the software is just a little too clunky. I feel the same with Android. Samsung makes some really great phones, but they insist on installing free software. If samsung just bit the bullet and hired some programmers with an high budget and a fairly open time line to write their own OS, especially knowing what everyone wants and needs in a mobile device, they would put out something amazing.

 

[ShMac]

I just went through the buying process and I tried a Lenovo which I sent back. There are a ton of factors to consider. The Lenovo wasn't horrible in every way but considering how many hours I'll spend with a machine, I just didn't like it that much. It was in their mid or upper mid range, a P51s.

The only people that seem to be putting out laptops that compete with Apple in my opinion seem to be Dell and Asus. However, there are a ton of lemon reports on Dells and a lot of other complaints--some of the worst customer service in the business. The Asus Zenbooks have a lot of complaints too but maybe not quite so bad and they seem pretty nice. I've discovered I really don't like the keyboards that are offset to the left to accommodate a numeric keypad. The asymmetry is quite noticeable and I don't want to spend the next 5 years with my hands and arms twisted to the left so my body/face is centered with the machine or my neck or eyes constantly turning right to look at the remainder of the screen. It just feels bad--horrible ergonomics.

Instead of just ordering this time, I actually went to a Best Buy and played around with a bunch of laptops for about an hour. I can see why people complain about the new Apple keyboards but it didn't take me long to adapt. I think I'll like it just fine. It is a little loud though unless you have the lightest of touch. I feel like I'm just clacking away. The trackpad is different too but I seemed to be adapting to that as well. I opened every application on the bar and most of the ones in the launcher. All-in-all, over 20 apps. I was able to tab through them all very quickly and run functions on them and they were quick and responsive. There was almost no lag. And, the Activity Monitor showed plenty of memory left. This is the best I could do since it wasn't connected to the Internet. I would've opened a zillion browser tabs to different websites if I could've because this is one thing I often do but I think my test suggests it will do well.

The sound of the speakers of the Apple way outclass any other machine I tried by a mile if this is important to you.

Some people complain about the touch bar but I used it immediately without and noticeable problems.

With Windows you will have to license any apps like Word unless Wordpad is good enough for you. I like getting Pages and Numbers with the Apple computer. They are good enough for my purposes.

The Windows OS interface may be slightly improved but overall it is still confusing compared to Apple. There are a few more options to customize which might appeal to some. It is probably the best Windows yet but they could do better with the settings interfaces. It is amazing they've had 90% or more of the market for most of its lifespan and still lag behind Apple in this area--blows my mind. It is quite usable though.

My Apple should be here in a few days and I am looking forward to it. All-in-all, I'd say the Apple tax is still worth it but companies like Asus are making great strides in Windows hardware, not to mention the huge leap in Windows itself. A lot of people like the higher end HPs too like the Spectre. It looked OK to me, I could live with it. Some day I think Samsung might end up being a contender. I liked one of their models for the most part but somehow they'd locked out the mouse and I couldn't turn it back on w/o the administrator password. If Dell didn't put out so many lemons and if they'd improve their supposedly awful customer service, I might be attracted to them too.

Of course, if you really think you need a touch screen, then Windows computers are the only game in town. I'd suggest checking out the new Zenbook Pro. They offer the hardware solution that seems the closest to a MacBook yet still have a few less complaints. If you want to spin the dice, hope you don't get a lemon and don't need their customer service, Dell offers some quasi Apple-like hardware.

 

[hajime]

Anybody has experience with the Yoga series? I tried one at a Microsoft Store. It looked good and there was no LCD wobble issue. The only problem I had was that when I flipped the keyboard behind the LCD and tried to use it as a tablet, my fingers kept pressing the keys.
[doublepost=1509062360][/doublepost]

I just went through the buying process and I tried a Lenovo which I sent back. There are a ton of factors to consider. The Lenovo wasn't horrible in every way but considering how many hours I'll spend with a machine, I just didn't like it that much. It was in their mid or upper mid range, a P51s.

Why you sent back the Lenovo?

As for the DELL, I recall that about 20 years ago, more people started using PC because of the low cost DELL desktop computers. However, the qualities were very poor and those who used the DELL at school complained a lot. I have not used any DELL's product before but I recall those noisy keyboards from DELL desktop and laptop users. Not sure about their computers after all these years. Seems like many people like DELL's monitors.

 

[ZapNZs]

Many PC Makers have been offering some very well-made machines that function well and seem to have reasonably good longevity. Microsoft's 10th try at an OS has come leaps and bounds from the pile of crap that Windows once was. No differently than Apple, the flagship products from most Makers are prone to some problems, many of which are often overstated, and yet none of which are insignificant for the Users that happen to wind up with a particular specimen with one of those issues (e.g., MacBook Pro keyboard issues, Surface Book hinge & sleep issues, Lenovo Yoga black line, Dell XPS coil whine, Spectre x360 WiFi connectivity, etc.)

That said, no PC Maker has a product with any proven longevity record as Apple, and I still prefer macOS for my own usage. The 2017 retina MacBook I purchased is without question the most consistent and refined computer I have ever owned - its fit, finish, and consistency is extremely impressive for a mass-produced product.

For those who are Apple fans, Apple has a nice selection and is showing what I believe to be recently reignited interest in the Mac lineup. For those not liking that lineup, there are a lot of solid alternatives as well.

 

[weckart]

to the nhs ( the worlds bggest employer)

Only fifth largest, behind McD and Walmart as well as the usual suspects. Would have expected Indian Railways to have leapfrogged it too but not yet.