I found a completely spec'd out Mac Pro 12 Core / 64GB Ram / 1TB SSD / 2x D700 or whatever graphics cards for $2,200. It seems like a steal unless there's something i'm missing. Will this machine still get software updates for a couple years?
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How long will the 2013 Mac Pro get software updates?
- Thread starter cinnabun814
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Apple doesn't usually support something that is over 7 years old. The 2013 Mac Pro is a special case because it was sold in it's original config for 6 years prior to being replaced. Because of this (and the fact that consumers could purchase this "new" up until recently), I have a hypothesis that OS support will disappear after 10.16. It will get one more OS after Catalina, but then no more, just due to the fact that you could buy it new until June 2019.
Hopefully I'm wrong, but I think the 6,1 is the G5 Powermac of this generation (meaning if you bought new in 2019, in 4 years it will be no longer supported with security updates).
Hopefully I'm wrong, but I think the 6,1 is the G5 Powermac of this generation (meaning if you bought new in 2019, in 4 years it will be no longer supported with security updates).
Agree with above - you'll probably get full software updates (i.e. able to update to the latest version of MacOS) through fall 2021, followed by the typical 2 years of security updates on MacOS 10.16 with no further updates after fall 2023.
Catalina supports all 7 year old Macs except for the cMP. Note the 7 years is from last mainstream sale, not introduction date. With that expect the nMP to have software support through 2026.
Sidecar does not work "natively" which is a bad sign already, but:
should enable it
Code:
defaults write com.apple.sidecar.display AllowAllDevices -bool true;
defaults write com.apple.sidecar.display hasShownPref -bool true;
open /System/Library/PreferencePanes/Sidecar.prefPane
As far as I understand they dropped older machines from OS support because of Metal requirements. So short of some other hardware requirement that the trashcan won't be able to match I don't see a reason for support to get dropped early.
They are still selling these machines and the professional markets they are aimed at keep their gear running for a good long while. These don't just get turned into doorstops overnight just because a new model is out.
They are still selling these machines and the professional markets they are aimed at keep their gear running for a good long while. These don't just get turned into doorstops overnight just because a new model is out.
Apple may have taken the 2013 nMP off of the US site, but it is still for sale on Apple sites in other countries. Checking my local one (Apple Japan) you can purchase a new nMP with a 6 core or 8 core config. for delivery or pickup in 2 days or a custom one extending that out to two weeks.
Just checked out the UK site, Canada site and the Germany site and it is pretty much the same. Although shipping times are much shorter in Canada for customized options.
The 2013 nMP should be supported for a long while.
Just checked out the UK site, Canada site and the Germany site and it is pretty much the same. Although shipping times are much shorter in Canada for customized options.
The 2013 nMP should be supported for a long while.
Apple still has the 2013 nMP on their US site but it is hard to find. Need to go through the store area and drill down there - https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-pro
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Not completely as Mojave also required Metal but still supported the 2010/2012 cMP. Needed a new graphics card. So Catalina dropped the cMP for other reasons.
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They sold them until Monday. I’d guess three more years of software updates.
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It’s the only Mac left that didn’t support AVX CPU instructions.
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It’s the only Mac left that didn’t support AVX CPU instructions.
Apple released its last PowerPC Mac up to summer 2006, yet the last OS X release for PowerPC Mac was 2007’s Leopard. So, if you bought a PowerMac G5 in June 2006 and it came with Tiger, you only got one OS X upgrade and that was it. So, I see a similar scenario happening with the 2013 Mac Pro, but under this circumstance, its been the same machine for the last 6 years.
Apple pretty much told folks 2 years ago they were working on a new design. So, if you bought one two years ago or just this week, you kinda went into this with eyes wide open knowing there would be a replacement.
I suspect Apple wants to put the 2013 behind it as fast as it can, which brings me to the conclusion, at a minimum there could only be one or two macOS upgrades remaining. That said, even if 10.17 or 10.16 is the last, Apple remains generous with security updates. So, you very well run it for another 2 years. By then, it will be over 10 years, you probably should have gotten a good return on investment, to at least buy a refurb 2019 or 2020 Mac Pro that could very well carry you through for the next 8 to 10 years.
Also, I am sure Apple will likely use it as an incentive to push upgrades to the new model. So far, though, technical requirements have been meaningful. One exception is Apple Watch support for unlocking your Mac. You need to be on High Sierra or later for that.
Apple pretty much told folks 2 years ago they were working on a new design. So, if you bought one two years ago or just this week, you kinda went into this with eyes wide open knowing there would be a replacement.
I suspect Apple wants to put the 2013 behind it as fast as it can, which brings me to the conclusion, at a minimum there could only be one or two macOS upgrades remaining. That said, even if 10.17 or 10.16 is the last, Apple remains generous with security updates. So, you very well run it for another 2 years. By then, it will be over 10 years, you probably should have gotten a good return on investment, to at least buy a refurb 2019 or 2020 Mac Pro that could very well carry you through for the next 8 to 10 years.
Also, I am sure Apple will likely use it as an incentive to push upgrades to the new model. So far, though, technical requirements have been meaningful. One exception is Apple Watch support for unlocking your Mac. You need to be on High Sierra or later for that.
They still had the 2013 nMP on display at the Mall of America Apple store the last time I was there, two weeks ago.
As I said in another thread on this same topic, using "release date" (2013) to determine when they will drop support is absurd. Apple will use the last date of its sale as a new (not discontinued) product to do software updates. They also know a good chunk of users of the Can Mac Pro will not be upgrading to a Mac Pro for monetary reasons.
Yeah, somebody else mentioned earlier that they still sell them on Apple's website as well. At the bottom of the "Mac Pro" page it sells, are you still looking for the previous generation Mac Pro? and then links to the store page where you can still purchase one new.
https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/mac-pro
At my local Apple Store, they still have them connected on the sales floor.
People who are saying that the configuration is the same from 2013 are also incorrect. The original release was a 4 core D300 GPU model and a 6 core D500 GPU model for sale with higher core cpus and GPUs as BTO options. In 2017 I believe, they made the 6 core D500 model the base model and the 8 core D700 model became the upper tier model. (12 core cpu still a BTO option.)
Technically Apple's Vintage and Obsolete policy is on manufacture and hardware.
>... Owners of iPhone, iPad, iPod, or Mac products may obtain service and parts from Apple or Apple service providers for 5 years after the product is no longer manufactured—or longer where required by law. ..."
Software support is extremely unlikely to extent past getting onto the Obsolete status ( past Vintage and explicitly on Obsolete ). Software OS coverage can end sooner. Apple doesn't put an explicit "line in the sand" for software. However, Apple also doesn't particularly view software as completely detached from hardware either. So expectations shouldn't extend past where the hardware is dropped off.
[ while Apple has a new policy of extending past the 7 year window if there is an excess amount of parts, I wouldn't bet the "macOS upgrade" farm on that. How many parts is likely highly variable and software has other drivers pulling at resource assignment. Additionally, the failure rate on MP 2013 GPU parts has been high in the past so it is highly doubtful Apple is sitting on a huge excess pile of those spare parts. In fact, I can see Apple's parts pile dying out prematurely for the Mac Pro 2013 and Apple handing folks credits to buy a new/used Mac instead of the Mac Pro getting fixed at some point several years down the road. ]
Mac Pro 2013 went way past the usual 7-9 year window Apple generally shoots for ( 1-2 years to stop manufacturing and then the vintage countdown clock. ).
I suspect the Mac Pro 2013 will 'cheat' a bit in that the manufacturing of what is being sold done is time stamped a substantively longer time back. I wouldn't be surprised if the Mac Pro generally being sold now had their major chassis built back in 2018. Apple is not being their usual "Just in time Manufacturing" selves and have stockpiled enough to last for the very low volume of orders they are getting. ( Yet another reason to now 'hide' the buy button under layers. ). So Apple will pick the last day they did a major order run at the factory for fixed configs as the last "manufacturing" date.
"manufacturing" date matches up with sell date just as long as deeply committed to almost complete "Just in time" production. The relatively low , low , low volumes on the current Mac Pro are basically at big odds with that approach given the way Apple does things ( largely with outsourcing contractors. )
Pragmatically that would put the Vintage count down clock already on one year at the point at which 10.15 gets released. I'd would peg it at probably another 4 years ( 2023 which should be 10.19) until the macOS gets dropped. Possibly at the end of 3 years (if they get vast majority to move on to new Mac Pro and the iMac Pro or some other Mac. ). The two year slack in their '5-7 ' language basically got used up during their Rip van Winkle nap on updating the Mac Pro. They only stick to where the law makes them hand out hardware for sale, but the software is toast ( there is no "making them" there).
If Apple does a "ARM changes the world" addition to the Mac line up that will probably shorten times all around the currently selling Macs by 1-3 years (depending upon how much the "ARM" Macs overlap with current stuff. I don't expect Apple will have a solution in the Mac Pro space at all. But it will be an all too convenient excuse to chop down the grossly ancient MP 2013 model in 2-3 years.
[ Apple generally chopped down the macOS window after the PPC -> x86 transition. Same issue likely in limited back porting to older instruction set software support going to cover. ]
if only looking for a two year window ( about $1,000/ year cost recovery rate ) then it should be good for that. Out past 4 it gets more sketchy. It also wouldn't be surprising for the Mac Mini to past that up in terms of CPU and storage performance next year at about that price. I'm not sure I'd label it a "steal". It is high for what it is. The used/refurb prices should drop a bit after Apple stops selling it in the next 2-4 months. It won't be a huge stampede, but there will be substantive number of folks "trading in " this 2013 model for the 2019 model. Primarily just due to 2+ year pent up demand bubble.
If there was a repair history that went along with that system that was littered with fixes it also might not look like a steal.
In May prices on eBay for the 6,1 were noticeably lower than they are today. The upward tick began in early June and seems to have steadied a bit but there are some ridiculously high prices being asked for machines built in 2014-15 for a machine whose only future is as a stopgap until used / refurb 7,1's start becoming available.
After the 7,1 ships, as @deconstruct60 said, many folks will be trading up so there should be a relaxing of the high prices during that time for the 6,1 models.
Patience is the word for now.
After the 7,1 ships, as @deconstruct60 said, many folks will be trading up so there should be a relaxing of the high prices during that time for the 6,1 models.
Patience is the word for now.
My nMP was built and shipped in March of 2018 (BTO 8 core/32GB/1TB/D700), so they were manufacturing them until at least last year.
They were still featured prominently on the Apple website until the announcement of the 2019 MP, so there is a good chance that they were manufactured until late 2018/early 2019 in "bulk" for however many they were selling.
You can still order the nMP as a BTO. On my local Apple Store website (Japan), it is 7/28 now and the standard configuration is available in the 2 days (7/30). Changing up any of the options drastically increases the shipping time to a month, 8/28 to 9/4 for me right now.
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We are now reading tea leaves, especially considering most of the 2010's decade was extraordinarily weird for Apple's line of professional desktops with only 3 new hardware releases (and I would argue that we should only count 2 of them—the 2010 and 2013 Mac Pros—because the 2019 Mac Pro was released 3 weeks before the end of the decade in very limited quantities). This problem is amplified by Apple's lack of any formal, published support policy for OS releases. Compounding that further is the Apple Silicon transition.
Good luck deciphering this if you're not a fly on the wall at Apple's hardware team meetings. All we can do is speculate based on past actions.
The first Mac Pro was released in August 2006, at which point Apple's transition from PowerPC processors to Intel was complete and the Power Mac G5 was discontinued. The G5 was supported by then-current Mac OS X 10.4 (Tiger) and the following release, 10.5 (Leopard). Then, 10.6 (Snow Leopard) dropped all PowerPC support when it was released in August 2009, exactly 3 years after PowerPC systems were completely retired. Leopard received its last security update in (I think) May 2012, almost 6 years after the retirement of PowerPC.
The 2013 Mac Pro design was sold as the current model for an extremely long time and wasn't discontinued until December 2019. I don't see Apple dropping current macOS support for this system less than 3 years after it was discontinued—especially considering some of these systems will still be supported by the standard 3 years of AppleCare.
My opinions:
- The 2013 Mac Pro will get a compatible release of macOS in 2022, which will be supported through 2025 (6 years after the system was discontinued). I say this not so much because I expect every Mac to have 6 years of OS support (I don't) and more because it will have been less than 3 years since the system was sold as new with active warranty coverage.
- I'd speculate that the 2023 macOS release (which will probably be supported with security updates through 2026) will not support the 2013 Mac Pro.
This all assumes Apple maintains its current annual release cycle for operating systems.
Also, sometimes the water gets too dark as tea steeps, so reading the leaves can be tough.
Mini-rant: Apple serves no one's interests but their own with such a lack of communication on this topic. They should create and publish formal support lifecycle policies so customers can actually plan their business decisions.
2019 + 5 years => 2024. (post 15 above )
2023 would be a little "doom and gloom". 2022 is probably safe. If Apple is contractually required to support the hardware support, then dropping software support doesn't buy them much. There is a decent chance it will be subset on features , but kicking the can down the road probably will happen this year. [ e.g., Universal control is already not supported on MP 2013. Metal features not supported , etc. ]
The fact that it looks like Apple is going to be selling Intel processors until late 2022 (**). The other Mac Pro is still on Intel. The bottom "half" of the Mac line up went through a relatively very fast transition. The desktop , top half has been slow. ( upper Mini , upper 27" iMac, and Mac Pro). That desktop top half is what Apple will likely want to point the current users at to make the transition to ... and it isn't shipping. So why beat the drums hard by prematurely cutting off upgrades? ( It probably is more expensive than they would like to pay, but it is a hole that Apple dug for themselves. They saved lots of money by doing nothing for 2-4 years. It is time to pay the piper. )
Macstadium/Mac-Coloc was buying pallets of these things up until the bitter end. Mac Pro 2019 didn't ship until after the Fall macOS release so that helps push the "end of sale" date into the Fall to push the de-support anniversary into the direction of another macOS release season.
The issues to look out for at WWDC 2022 that would be significant to getting to 2024+ would be:
i. An announced "drop dead" deadline for kernel extensions on the macOS Intel side.
ii. some major disruptive move that would require deep re-engineering of the graphics driver stack.
( AMD not interested in those old GPUs drivers anyway)
iii. (related to the above) .. still no movement on adding 3rd party GPU drivers to macOS on M-series.
( AMD is even less so if Apple is pragmatically forcing them completely out of the market. )
As long as they can push "if it ain't broke , don't fix it" code forward, it is easy enough for Apple to push forward with minimalistic effort.
(**) Decent chance all get at WWDC 2022 is a dog and pony show for "half sized" Mac Pro; not a shipping product. It won't be surprising if that system is coupled to the fall macOS release so that it won't ship before then either ( like 2013 , 2019 MPs ).
That's actually already happened, but Apple has forked the stack beyond the driver layer. Intel has a different end-to-end graphics stack than M1. (Some parts are likely shared, but some parts are definitely not.)
Probably linked to why AMD drivers haven't appeared on M1. But for now Apple seems happy to maintain a parallel stack on Intel.
That would be hard if Apple was extremely inconsistent but they aren't.
First, hardware support they are explicit.
Obtaining service for your Apple product after an expired warranty - Apple Support
Learn about your options for getting service and parts for Apple devices that are past their warranty period.
Strongly related to that Apple largely views the system as a hardware+software unit. macOS is licensed to the hardware. ( isn't sold loose/decoupled). So if stopping on one "half" a unified whole why would they continue on the other "half" and vice versa.
The Mac Pro 2009 , 2010 , 2012 went on the vintage obsolete lists at different times. Just like the Vintrage/Obsolete policy lays out it would. And the official macOS de-support basically the same way. [ There was lots of self congratlatory "We hacked our why around that de-support with firmware hackery" in these Mac Pro forums. However, that is missing the forest for the tree. The software de-support policy is very consistently tied to the hardware long term support policy ]
The PowerPC->x86 is a skewed point in time. Super deep inferencing off of that will likely get decouple from what Apple is out to do. There are four major differences between now and the x86 transition.
First, Apple owns the x86->arm translator tech. For PPC->x86 Apple slaps their name "Rosetta" on top of someone else's tech that they had to license and pay for. So it is really not all that surprising that they wanted to stop paying sooner rather than later.
[ In 2008, IBM bought transitive. Any future licensing pricing renewal discussions were not going to be with some struggling, small start up. Even if Apple wanted to keep paying ... they wouldn't after that. ]
There is no 'per unit' costs for this limited x86_64 -> arm translator. (minus whatever couldn't duck on Intel/AMD patents. ). A small, relatively fixed cost team to keep the lights on for the translator is sufficient.
Second, the installed base inertia is completely different. The installed base is around 2-4x as big now. Yes they are selling M1's a pretty fast rate , but it is also a much bigger mountain to climb to displace most of the old stuff in the hands of active users (who are more prone to buy stuff).
Piled on top of that Apple completed the transition in about 18 months. 18 months in this time and Apple isn't even close to be finishing off the product transition. ( Pandemic and other factors out of their control contribute to that. But probably also wasn't the original plan either. Apple probably meant two years when they said two years this time given the inertia hill they needed to climb and that were not selecting a SoC vendor that had a fully complete spectrum of offerings on day 0. Intel had more CPU models to pick from on day 0 than Apple even needed. )
Here probably closer to 2.25-2.5 years to actually finishing. That means going to be selling Intel models longer window than sold "new" PPC models (that inertia hill at least not shrinking , if not technically growing larger. )
Third, you are missing dates on that 10.4 (2005) , 10.5 ( 2007) . 10.6 (2009) releases. Some significant stuff happened around that time. iPhone OS v1 ( 2007) , v2 (2008) , v3 ( 2009) the first iPad was on "iPhone OS 3". [ and iOS 4 was coming 2010 ] . So these little "small" things called the iPhone and iPad showed up. Apple pulled resources off of macOS X and push them onto iPhone/iOS around the same time stripping PPC port of resources. Porting to Arm took on higher priority than even to evolving x86_64. The shared code Arm work did just as much, if not likely more, to kill off the PPC port as the x86_64 one did.
This transition is exactly the opposite. macOS is moving to where Apple already speeding most of the kernel, GPU driver, and special fix function unit library money anyway. Many of the left over Intel models have a T2 chip in them ( MP 2013 doesn't , but also not large base burning money either). Instead of going 3-wide on the port teams they are at the same two they were before the transition. There are "more savings" at some point by dumping Intel CPU, AMD GPU, etc at point, but it clearly isn't costing more to go wider/broader in platform coverage.
The performance upgrades to moving over are large enough that many are moving over voluntarily rather there being some deep seated requirement to forcibly herd them over to buying upgrades they don't necessarily want.
Fourth, Apple has a major subscription revenue flow now. If a Intel Mac OS users is steadily paying several app store subscriptions then Apple is still making money. Why run the risk of prematurely cutting them off then respond by cancelling the subscription as a "revenge" move?
Also the way Apple does accounting for upgrades has changed. Apple charges for upgrades up front when buy the system. They recognize the revenue when they ship the future upgrade ( one reason always eager to ship some half-baked macOS/iOS/iPadOS v0 version out at the end of calendar Q3 ). It is completely unlike trying to elicit new money out of customers for an OS upgrade when they know their platform is deprecated. (the number of people buying upgrades was already relative poor and slow. It would have been even more slower and poorer for "end of the road" PPC systems. ) Under the current system, Apple already has to money and can just miserly spend it on a "just enough" effort to ship something to keep people happy in the ecosystem.
Apple got no where near the time to complete upgrade transition times they do now back on 10.4-10.6 era.
3 years is way, way , way off any substantive track record that Apple has put together over the last two decades.
Apple could do better, but also really not much of an incentive to do better when they do publish explicit support lifecycle information and people largely ignore it. Apple clearly documents the hardware support lifecycle. Apple also clearly communicates that they don't see a large chasm between 'hardware' and 'software' . They are primarily out to sell 'systems' as opposed to modular , largely decoupled components.
The large disconnect is mostly driven by folks outside of Apple insisting that the software has to be on some radically different track than the hardware. It isn't. Apple basically says it isn't. They pretty consistently don't treat it that way either.
The major problem with Apple's policy is that is built on "doing" rather than "talking". Intel trotting out 10nm roadmaps for years. Any business who bet the farm on those early roadmaps probably ran into trouble. It isn't about "talking the talking"... "walking the walking" ( backing up talk is what matters more if trying to coordinate multiple entities in trying to get something done).
The high end Mac workstation class products are problem more so because the disappear into a "do nothing" mode for long stretches. If 'actions' are the base of talking/communicating then doing nothing means saying nothing.
Apple could write up a chart to explain the n , n-1 , n-2 trail off on security upgrades but if consistently do it for decades ... what is better the consistent action or lots of promises may or may not kept?
Does Apple have wiggle room to not do software they have not promised to do? Yes. Is there not enough info to construct a plausible 2-6 year plan? No.
If Apple keeps the graphics stack on the macOS Intel side in a "mostly backwards looking" mode and decouples long term from the forward pay the M-series GPU is on then that is better news for the MP 2013. Status quo likely means longer support for the Macs that were abandoned longer between upgrades. That is probably is "not so good" news for the Mac Pro 2019 though. The GPU path there is probably also a "dead ender".
A forked, backwards looking stack with approximately zero feature updates is relatively very cheap to do resource wise (money and people). As long as no big security hole or bug to fix, they just run tests that it still works and ship. Quit when the underlying hardware rolls off the Vintage/Obsolete countdown clock goes to zero.
But if Apple says at WWDC 2022 that they are going to consolidate the macOS Intel and M-series drivers stacks in 1-2 iterations, then there will likely be a much newer cut off point for the legacy GPUs. Apple has said they want to purge completely kext at some point. They didn't put an explicit "only in macOS M-series" caveat on that. I suspect there will be non-T2 purge, but some merging at that point. ( mini 2018 dumped pre-t2. 2018+6 = 2024. MP dumped 2019+5= 2024. The iMacs make that a little messy. Especially, that 2017 edu-model they held onto forever. ) .
It would be indicative that they are will to put in something above "next to zero" amount of work on macOS on Intel.
I'm a bit surprised they are taking the "bet the farm" solely on their own GPU in the Mac Pro space. They should have something competitive with the current crop of 3rd party GPUs. But are they really going to "burn the bridges" behind them so that they have no choice? That would be another "can't innovate my ass" / "bold enough to nuke the headphone jack" move. Those two had substantively different long term outcomes.
I've actually been wondering if some sort of unification will happen.
The M1 graphics stack seems like it borrows a lot of code from the iPad instead of the traditional Mac graphics stack. That means it's more modern, but it's missing some of the usual niceties of the Mac stack. It may be linked to why M1 Macs seem to have resolution issues with external displays. Could also prevent devices like eGPUs.
On the Mac, the stack was pretty ancient with some parts still dating to the NeXTStep era. But it dealt with a lot of corner cases and display management that the iOS stack likely didn't. The stack is a lot more than just GPU and graphics output. It also handles the management of displays like arrangement, scaling, and resolution.