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taliz

macrumors member
Original poster
Jun 10, 2006
89
108
I bought my latest Apple laptop in 2011. It came with 4GB RAM which made it swap the SSD to death, even though I just browse and mail etc.
Since then I've refused to buy another one until they come with a decent amount in the base config.
Obviously that hasn't happened, so they lost me as a Mac customer.

Same goes with my iPhone. I splurged on an XR in 2018 to get faceid.
Since then I've changed jobs and am only allowed to buy the SE. So now it's been 6 years that I've been unable to upgrade to another phone, since the base version only has touchid.

Some would probably say I'm cheap, and I'd say I just dont care about the silly features they put in their more expensive models. I'm not paying for that crap.
I bet I am not alone in this situation, and I bet Apple are losing billions of dollars because of it.

Ps. I used to own Apple stock, and made good money on it. But now with todays interest rates and high cost of living I believe Apple need to refocus on bringing more value to their product portfolio. People in general just aren't that interested in blowing thousands of dollars on tech stuff they don't really need anymore.
 

eyoungren

macrumors Penryn
Aug 31, 2011
28,775
26,843
I bought my latest Apple laptop in 2011. It came with 4GB RAM which made it swap the SSD to death, even though I just browse and mail etc.
Since then I've refused to buy another one until they come with a decent amount in the base config.
Obviously that hasn't happened, so they lost me as a Mac customer.

Same goes with my iPhone. I splurged on an XR in 2018 to get faceid.
Since then I've changed jobs and am only allowed to buy the SE. So now it's been 6 years that I've been unable to upgrade to another phone, since the base version only has touchid.

Some would probably say I'm cheap, and I'd say I just dont care about the silly features they put in their more expensive models. I'm not paying for that crap.
I bet I am not alone in this situation, and I bet Apple are losing billions of dollars because of it.

Ps. I used to own Apple stock, and made good money on it. But now with todays interest rates and high cost of living I believe Apple need to refocus on bringing more value to their product portfolio. People in general just aren't that interested in blowing thousands of dollars on tech stuff they don't really need anymore.
If Apple were losing billions of dollars a year because they were being 'cheap' there would be a change. So either they aren't losing billions of dollars a year, or there is a market segment of customers that compensates for this.

Right or wrong in your statement, I doubt the answer is what you want to hear.
 

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,385
1,588
Ps. I used to own Apple stock, and made good money on it. But now with todays interest rates and high cost of living I believe Apple need to refocus on bringing more value to their product portfolio. People in general just aren't that interested in blowing thousands of dollars on tech stuff they don't really need anymore.
Apple have made clear in the past that they don't do cheap, and that low price is not the market they are in, nor could they compete in. For cost-based computers, there's Dell, HP, Acer and several others. Speaking for myself, I don't see any reason we need another.

I'm not sure it would be so hard to understand this if it were Rolls Royce, Bentley or Cadillac, competing in a car market a notch or two up from Chevy, Fiat or Opel.

I'm also not sure it's so easy to speak for 'people in general' as many seem to think, because if Apple were not serving their market and doing it sufficiently well, they would hardly be amongst the largest/most profitable companies in the world, with so much money in the bank. Indeed, you'd have to assume that if current customers were not actually quite happy, and shareholders not being 'rewarded' as the company tanked, we'd be seeing a change in leadership.

Which I suspect would point to the fact that the company is doing quite well, despite your observations and personal preferences.

That isn't to say I don't agree to some extent. As a consumer with limited resources at my disposal, it is dismaying that base models are underspecified. I bought one because that's what I could afford, and it is with a sense of being taken rather for granted that I handed over my money. But it's the product I bought and not the company, so when I put the product to work and it does exactly what I want it to, it's the product I admire, not the company.

Sure, I could decide that since Apple don't deserve me as a customer, I could buy something else - whether a PC, an Android phone or whatever else, but all I would achieve is saving a bit of money, and not getting what I want. I'd lose, Apple wouldn't notice a thing. It seems a bit of a pointless way to punish them, for them not to notice and for me to end up without the product I want.

Incidentally, while it is nicely convenient to hang criticisms on Apple for stuff like 8Gb RAM and 256Gb SSD base models, it's worth noting that whatever individual experiences might have been, these things do actually work. Firstly, SSDs don't get 'swapped to death', and studies have shown in fact that SSDs are far more reliable over time than traditional hard drives were. Also, that 8Gb RAM is actually plenty for one of these machines to do quite strenuous work. It is just possible that it isn't so much that Apple are 'being cheap' as that they actually know a bit about what they're doing.
 

icanhazmac

Contributor
Apr 11, 2018
2,516
9,424
I bought my latest Apple laptop in 2011. It came with 4GB RAM which made it swap the SSD to death, even though I just browse and mail etc.

You neglected to mention how long it lasted.

Since then I've refused to buy another one until they come with a decent amount in the base config.
Obviously that hasn't happened, so they lost me as a Mac customer.

I am reserving judgement until the question above is answered but why not just buy what you need? Why should Apple's base configuration be set to your specific needs? Others will argue this but, under the M chips, 8gb seems adequate for the light use, browsing and email, you describe and an average 4-5 year life span.

Same goes with my iPhone. I splurged on an XR in 2018 to get faceid.
Since then I've changed jobs and am only allowed to buy the SE. So now it's been 6 years that I've been unable to upgrade to another phone, since the base version only has touchid.

None of this makes sense, could you clarify? Your employer limits you to the SE how? You would rather have an older, slower phone for FaceID versus upgrading to the latest SE? It is widely speculated that the next SE will have FaceID so you don't have long to wait.

Some would probably say I'm cheap, and I'd say I just dont care about the silly features they put in their more expensive models. I'm not paying for that crap.
I bet I am not alone in this situation, and I bet Apple are losing billions of dollars because of it.

I wouldn't call you cheap necessarily but you do seem to have an aversion to spending for your needs versus the base configuration.

Ps. I used to own Apple stock, and made good money on it. But now with todays interest rates and high cost of living I believe Apple need to refocus on bringing more value to their product portfolio. People in general just aren't that interested in blowing thousands of dollars on tech stuff they don't really need anymore.

Um, Air... SE... Mini... etc. All these are considered "value" models and it is hard to argue it. It seems to me that you want "Pro" level features to come at "Air" prices and that just isn't going to happen.
 
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icanhazmac

Contributor
Apr 11, 2018
2,516
9,424
Whelp... I should have known better. OP has been on multiple times and even posted in other threads but nothing here. I have been tricked again, should have read his post history before wasting my time, there were clues. This post appears to be yet another 8gb base config rant under a different title.
 

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,385
1,588
Whelp... I should have known better. OP has been on multiple times and even posted in other threads but nothing here. I have been tricked again, should have read his post history before wasting my time, there were clues. This post appears to be yet another 8gb base config rant under a different title.
Oh, to be honest it's a fair question... just not the right one. That would be, how many customers are Apple losing by being expensive. The answer would appear to be: not enough to leave product on the shelves.
 

G5isAlive

Contributor
Aug 28, 2003
2,569
4,422
But now with todays interest rates and high cost of living I believe Apple need to refocus on bringing more value to their product portfolio.

um you want lower than 0% interest rate? That's what Apple gives you for a year. And Apple should balance out the price of eggs by pricing themselves down? Makes no sense. Not to mention they do bring value over the long haul versus cheaper equipment that needs to be replaced more. If you cant afford a new machine, it's like cars, buy a used one. Their price goes down once you drive it off the lot.
 

AlastorKatriona

Suspended
Nov 3, 2023
510
966
I bought my latest Apple laptop in 2011. It came with 4GB RAM which made it swap the SSD to death, even though I just browse and mail etc.
Since then I've refused to buy another one until they come with a decent amount in the base config.
Obviously that hasn't happened, so they lost me as a Mac customer.

Same goes with my iPhone. I splurged on an XR in 2018 to get faceid.
Since then I've changed jobs and am only allowed to buy the SE. So now it's been 6 years that I've been unable to upgrade to another phone, since the base version only has touchid.

Some would probably say I'm cheap, and I'd say I just dont care about the silly features they put in their more expensive models. I'm not paying for that crap.
I bet I am not alone in this situation, and I bet Apple are losing billions of dollars because of it.

Ps. I used to own Apple stock, and made good money on it. But now with todays interest rates and high cost of living I believe Apple need to refocus on bringing more value to their product portfolio. People in general just aren't that interested in blowing thousands of dollars on tech stuff they don't really need anymore.
You're devaluing Apple's offerings way below what reality says they are in order to make this weird post where you're hoping others will validate your financial choices.
 

icanhazmac

Contributor
Apr 11, 2018
2,516
9,424
Oh, to be honest it's a fair question... just not the right one. That would be, how many customers are Apple losing by being expensive. The answer would appear to be: not enough to leave product on the shelves.

Fair question... maybe, but as I replied to the OP Apple has many products considered "value" by their standards. The OP doesn't seem to need anything more than value line base configs but wants more without paying for it. If "browsing and mail" is all you do an M-Series Air 8/256 is all you need and should last a good 5 year minimum.

OP starts by hating on a 13 year old laptop config, that he willingly purchased, but then doesn't indicate how much time it was useful for and never indicated if the SSD failed or if the laptop simply couldn't keep up any longer with "browsing and email". OS security updates aside I fail to see why that 2011 shouldn't suffice for OPs described usage.

OP then goes on to complain that he "splurged" on an XR for FaceID but now laments that the SE doesn't offer FaceID yet. He never explains why FaceID was such a driving force for his purchase decision and/or why he is limited to an SE. My guess is his employer will buy iPhones for them but limits employees to the SE for cost savings. So OP can have a free, upgraded phone but that model doesn't have the single feature he wants. OP then doesn't want to be called cheap because he is holding out for a free phone instead of buying a model with features he really seems to want, such as FaceID.

Unless the OP chimes back in with more info I am declaring "shenanigans" on this thread and chalking it up to a base config rant as their post history clearly indicates.
 
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za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,385
1,588
Fair question... maybe, but as I replied to the OP Apple has many products considered "value" by their standards. The OP doesn't seem to need anything more than value line base configs but wants more without paying for it. If "browsing and mail" is all you do an M-Series Air 8/256 is all you need and should last a good 5 year minimum.

OP starts by hating on a 13 year old laptop config, that he willingly purchased, but then doesn't indicate how much time it was useful for and never indicated if the SSD failed or if the laptop simply couldn't keep up any longer with "browsing and email". OS security updates aside I fail to see why that 2011 shouldn't suffice for OPs described usage.

OP then goes on to complain that he "splurged" on an XR for FaceID but now laments that the SE doesn't offer FaceID yet. He never explains why FaceID was such a driving force for his purchase decision and/or why he is limited to an SE. My guess is his employer will buy iPhones for them but limits employees to the SE for cost savings. So OP can have a free, upgraded phone but that model doesn't have the single feature he wants. OP then doesn't want to be called cheap because he is holding out for a free phone instead of buying a model with features he really seems to want, such as FaceID.

Unless the OP chimes back in with more info I am declaring "shenanigans" on this thread and chalking it up to a base config rant as their post history clearly indicates.
Definitely just another try at a cheap dig on the base configuration, and like most of the rest, a commentary that neatly ignores the fact Apple have a lot of customers who seem perfectly happy, and a lot of money in the bank, so can reasonably be assumed to have a clue what they're doing.

Experts are a lot easier to come by these days.
 

taliz

macrumors member
Original poster
Jun 10, 2006
89
108
Fair question... maybe, but as I replied to the OP Apple has many products considered "value" by their standards. The OP doesn't seem to need anything more than value line base configs but wants more without paying for it. If "browsing and mail" is all you do an M-Series Air 8/256 is all you need and should last a good 5 year minimum.

OP starts by hating on a 13 year old laptop config, that he willingly purchased, but then doesn't indicate how much time it was useful for and never indicated if the SSD failed or if the laptop simply couldn't keep up any longer with "browsing and email". OS security updates aside I fail to see why that 2011 shouldn't suffice for OPs described usage.

OP then goes on to complain that he "splurged" on an XR for FaceID but now laments that the SE doesn't offer FaceID yet. He never explains why FaceID was such a driving force for his purchase decision and/or why he is limited to an SE. My guess is his employer will buy iPhones for them but limits employees to the SE for cost savings. So OP can have a free, upgraded phone but that model doesn't have the single feature he wants. OP then doesn't want to be called cheap because he is holding out for a free phone instead of buying a model with features he really seems to want, such as FaceID.

Unless the OP chimes back in with more info I am declaring "shenanigans" on this thread and chalking it up to a base config rant as their post history clearly indicates.
It's been proven in multiple tests that the base RAM config is insufficient even for basic multitasking. Here's one

Sure it probably works fine if you have a few tabs in safari and one or more apps open. But who does that nowadays?
I have hundreds of tabs in multiple browsers(and I'm not alone in this). I never close any apps, I keep them open so I can easily switch to them, so the content I need is instantly there. I don't want to have quit apps and then have to spotlight search for a file and then wait for the app to load it. That's what you did decades ago when RAM was expensive.
One of the great things about MacOS is it remembers whichs apps you had open, and the content in them, when you reboot.
So I make full use of that and have done so since that feature first appeared.
My work computer nowadays is an M1 Max with 32GB RAM, and it handles this pretty good(it does boot rather slow though). I'm sure I would've been fine with an Air with 24GB RAM too, possibly 16GB.
But still, the only thing I need is a lot of RAM, and I'm certainly no "pro" user. I just dont want to have to "micromanage" compute resources.

BTW I also have a Dell from 2014 with 16GB RAM running Ubuntu. It still runs great and does what I need it to do, unlike the nowadays unusable 4GB MBA.

I did explain that my employer limits us to the SE. Why should I spend money on something I'm not interested in? I already have a phone with FaceID.
The point was that if Apple had put FaceID in the SE, then I wouldn't be sitting with a 6 year old phone. I'd have upgraded because I could get it at no cost, like "why not". Instead they don't get any money from me or my employer.
 

MajorFubar

macrumors 68020
Oct 27, 2021
2,087
3,688
Lancashire UK
Apple ropes you in with the 'alluring' price of a base model that's barely fit for use in 2024, then to get the 16/512 the base models should already have, they r*pe your wallet at g*npoint. But Apple accountants on many times my salary will have already proven that increasing the base config won't generate enough sales to be economically worthwhile. So it won't change any time soon.
 

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,385
1,588
Apple ropes you in with the 'alluring' price of a base model that's barely fit for use in 2024, then to get the 16/512 the base models should already have, they r*pe your wallet at g*npoint. But Apple accountants on many times my salary will have already proven that increasing the base config won't generate enough sales to be economically worthwhile. So it won't change any time soon.
Oh god.

Where to begin? I know... "alluring price", yeah. $1299, I would call that many things, but 'alluring' isn't one of them.

Then... "base model that's barely fit for use in 2024". It is, in fact, 2024. My base model is in daily use for a multitude of things, some actually rather demanding. But this fact isn't relevant to your argument therefore doesn't count, whereas a fact-free assertion does for some reason.

Oh then there's.... "they r*pe your wallet at g*npoint". Yeah, I know what you mean. After all it isn't actually our responsibility to decide how we spend our money, when somehow, Apple do that for us and it's all their fault we're victims to their greed.

I fixed that for you. I hereby grant you the right to buy something else. Go on, try it.
 

taliz

macrumors member
Original poster
Jun 10, 2006
89
108
um you want lower than 0% interest rate? That's what Apple gives you for a year. And Apple should balance out the price of eggs by pricing themselves down? Makes no sense. Not to mention they do bring value over the long haul versus cheaper equipment that needs to be replaced more. If you cant afford a new machine, it's like cars, buy a used one. Their price goes down once you drive it off the lot.
Oh, to be honest it's a fair question... just not the right one. That would be, how many customers are Apple losing by being expensive. The answer would appear to be: not enough to leave product on the shelves.

The products are NOT leaving the shelves anymore.
0% interest, constant "deals" and yet Apples reported sales dropping like a stone.
Price gauging just isn't working anymore.
Again, people are not feeling they get value for the price.
 
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G5isAlive

Contributor
Aug 28, 2003
2,569
4,422
The products are NOT leaving the shelves anymore.
0% interest, constant "deals" and yet Apples reported sales dropping like a stone.
Price gauging just isn't working anymore.
Again, people are not feeling they get value for the price.

Since the original 128 k Mac in 1984 people have said Apple was overpriced. And yet here we are, one of the largest companies in the world. Not everyone sees the value, but apparently enough do. You might want to buy a used Mac.
 

taliz

macrumors member
Original poster
Jun 10, 2006
89
108
Since the original 128 k Mac in 1984 people have said Apple was overpriced. And yet here we are, one of the largest companies in the world. Not everyone sees the value, but apparently enough do. You might want to buy a used Mac.
Apple nearly went bankrupt in the 90s. They don't do too well during hard times. Thats where we're at now again. Not saying they're going bust but they will have to do a lot more to keep selling their products over the next few years.
 
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za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,385
1,588
The products are NOT leaving the shelves anymore.
0% interest, constant "deals" and yet Apples reported sales dropping like a stone.
Price gauging just isn't working anymore.
Again, people are not feeling they get value for the price.
Apple nearly went bankrupt in the 90s. They don't do too well during hard times. Thats where we're at now again. Not saying they're going bust but they will have to do a lot more to keep selling their products over the next few years.
I hadn't realized that you were actually telling jokes not being serious.

However, for the record:
-There is no way to be sure how many devices are selling because there aren't numbers for it. We do know the supply chain is very healthy, so if stuff isn't selling, one would see warehouses filling with product. There's no sign of that.

-There are always 0% offers. Apple doesn't necessarily do these other than via the Apple Card which isn't all that widespread, but paypal, Amazon, Best Buy and the like always have 0% options - which Apple don't control. Apple's pricing is stable and doesn't really vary, though yes, other retailers might, but again, not Apple's pricing control.

-What you call 'price gauging', which I presume you mean gouging, Apple call targeting their market. You can call this whatever you like, but Apple make billions in profits from it... how are you doing?

-'People'? I'm a person, I paid normal price for my M3 MBA, and I 'feel' I got exactly what I paid for. Same for every single Mac I bought before that. Whether it is 'value for money' is irrelevant since that isn't what I bought it for, otherwise I'd have opted to buy a Dell. But costed over the lifespan I expect, it'll have cost me about 65-70 cents per day of use, which is a fraction of what I could spend every day on coffee from Starbucks. It seems quite good value for money to me, particularly when I'll be able to sell it for as much as a third of my purchase price when I'm done.

-Apple nearly went bankrupt in the 90s because of poor management, who were responsible for wasting huge amounts developing product lines that competed against each other. This isn't what they are doing now, and the computer industry and marketplace are very different things now than they were then. Apple know this, they have actual experts.
 

G5isAlive

Contributor
Aug 28, 2003
2,569
4,422
Apple nearly went bankrupt in the 90s. They don't do too well during hard times. Thats where we're at now again. Not saying they're going bust but they will have to do a lot more to keep selling their products over the next few years.

it wasn't hard times that led to apple being a few hundred thousand short of bankruptcy but poor marketing that led to them not being able to successfully position themselves against IBM and the poor business decision made by the then CEO Gilbert Amelio to allow for Mac clones to go after the PC market, but in actuality the clones canibalized Apple sales, because its Apple folks that want a cheaper Mac (as evidenced by this thread lol). So Jobs staged a board coup and the rest is history.

Anyway Apple learned the lesson. Do better marketing. Don't go cheap, and they never looked back leading them to become one of the biggest companies in the world. And you think they are going to go cheap now? Smiles.

Times change and Apple evolves. They have branched into service markets, other devices, to the point the Mac is about 10% of their revenue. Just a bit more than an asterix. Which I think is why they feel comfortable enough to relax their stance on sale prices.

So I agree with you, no doubt Apple will evolve their approach to selling Macs, but I just don't agree with the hyperbole and gnashing of teeth angst on Apple tanking because of their business practices and the premise they are losing billions to lost sales. They are losing the cheap market, a market they never went after since the clone debacle.

Thanks for reminding me about the 90s. Wild times. And very pertinent on why Apple will not change like you wish they would.
 

za9ra22

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2003
1,385
1,588
While I generally agree with you, I want to address this. This is still an issue at Apple, with the most blatant example being the iPad product line.
Yes, actually I agree. Indeed, there are signs they are beginning to overlap product again in other areas too.

I do see the 'logic' in their product choices to a degree, but there are areas where it's pretty clear they drifted a bit away from the Jobs matrix of clear demarkation.
 
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icanhazmac

Contributor
Apr 11, 2018
2,516
9,424
The products are NOT leaving the shelves anymore.

0% interest, constant "deals" and yet Apples reported sales dropping like a stone.

Price gauging just isn't working anymore.

That is comical, please cite some sources.

Again, people are not feeling they get value for the price.

What people? Just you being mad about base model features? Boo hoo, you will have a FaceID SE soon, why is that feature your "must have"? Personally I'd rather have the home button.

PS - You never told us how long your 2011 Air lasted? Anything more than 5 years and you have nothing to complain about.

Sure it probably works fine if you have a few tabs in safari and one or more apps open. But who does that nowadays?

This is the very definition of a base model use case. Most people probably fall in this category.

I have hundreds of tabs in multiple browsers(and I'm not alone in this). I never close any apps, I keep them open so I can easily switch to them, so the content I need is instantly there.

This, if true, is NOT just "surfing and mail". I highly doubt there are very many people that keep hundreds of tabs open across multiple browsers, if any. I officially call shenanigans on you sir. Pics or it didn't happen.

 

Abazigal

Contributor
Jul 18, 2011
19,553
21,998
Singapore
It's the opposite for me. I wonder how much money Apple is leaving on the table by making their devices too good, to the point where people just aren't upgrading as often.

My M1 MBA is going strong, 8gb ram and all.

I used my iPhone 8+ for 4 years before upgrading to the 13 pro max, which I see myself using for at least as long.

My 2018 iPad Pro works great, after more than 5 years later. Though I have had the battery replaced for both my iPad and my watch.

My Series 5 Apple Watch is also working great.

Loving my AirPods Pro.

I have passed my 2017 5k iMac to my dad (though it's more like he commandeered it for himself because he's semi-retired now and spends most of his time in the study room where the iMac is situated). 🥲 It doesn't really get software upgrades anymore, but the screen is still excellent for watching YouTube.

That's really the value proposition of Apple products for me in a nutshell. I may spend more upfront, but they quickly pay for themselves in the form of better productivity and fewer issues. If people want to go with intel and windows just to save a bit of money on ram and storage, all I can say is, to each their own.
 
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MajorFubar

macrumors 68020
Oct 27, 2021
2,087
3,688
Lancashire UK
Oh god.

Where to begin? I know... "alluring price", yeah. $1299, I would call that many things, but 'alluring' isn't one of them.

Then... "base model that's barely fit for use in 2024". It is, in fact, 2024. My base model is in daily use for a multitude of things, some actually rather demanding. But this fact isn't relevant to your argument therefore doesn't count, whereas a fact-free assertion does for some reason.

Oh then there's.... "they r*pe your wallet at g*npoint". Yeah, I know what you mean. After all it isn't actually our responsibility to decide how we spend our money, when somehow, Apple do that for us and it's all their fault we're victims to their greed.

I fixed that for you. I hereby grant you the right to buy something else. Go on, try it.

Oh God. Where to begin? I know...first of all you're coming from the angle that $1299 is overpriced for what you get, then you go on to to say just how great it is for your particular needs. I think you're one of those people who wear camo trousers with a hi-viz jacket because you can't decide if you want to be seen or not.

Alluring? Yeah probably I was stretching it a bit. It's just more alluring than the price of 16/512 which is what the base model should be. It doesn't really matter if your uses could be carried out on even a Commodore 64, it's still absolutely indefensible that $1300 is buying such an under specified POS in 2024.

EDIT: And yes, also indefensible is the price Apple charge for RAM and storage upgrades. You Apple fanbois always come out with the same tired old shyte that 'other options are available' if the rest of us don't like Apple's pricing strategies, and that's because it's literally your only defense for the indefensible.
 
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