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Abstract said:
Why is Rosetta Stone better than any other language book + CD combination? I mean, how much different is it from other programs?
in Rosetta they try to learn you a new language in a similar way that kids learn a language, i.e. you dont cram glossaries.
You hear a word like "boy" and then you are suppose identify a pic on your screen that depicts a boy. Then it gets gradually harder all the time, e.g. "a man in blue pants with brown shoes".
The philosophy is that it is easier (read more natural) to associate a specific word or a sentence to a specific event than cramming glossaries and grammar.
 
I'd have to agree with most people when saying that your girlfriend is the best resource you have. Yes, you have to watch out for developing the female dialect (like I'm sure I have :( ) Also, you have to pay attention to the formality. With a girlfriend you tend to be very informal. While a stranger or a boss you need a more formal "dialect"

Also I would say, stay away from music if wanting to learn Japanese. Pronounciation in music can be very strange. And there is so much English that is used. Also, reading a newpaper is probably out. Too much difficult kanji.

Personally I believe one should focus heavily on vocab first with a little grammar mixed in. (I'm sure others disagree but it's just my belief. Especially with Japanese.) As I say, what good is grammar if you don't know any words to say. A fairly good website for vocab is http://www.j-prep.com/content.html Also for kanji there is http://kanjialive.lib.uchicago.edu/main.php?page=overview&lang=en

Hope this helps.:)
 
I also liked Rosetta initially. But it became too simplistic after a while. And mind-numbingly repetitive.
I'm not going to try to recommend resources since I'm not aware of everything that's out there. But I'm using these:
Genki I and II, "An Integrated Course in Elementary Japanese"
They're textbooks which strike a reasonable balance between almost everything I think.
Japanese friends (well, I'm not "using" them, but you know what I mean!)
The Prepatory Course for The Japanese Language Proficiency Test, Level 4 (the test book).

The last one is not overly exciting, but if you master the grammar, kanji and vocabularly in it (which shouldn't take too long if you are focussed and have some help available) you'll be in a good position to learn more simply through exposing yourself to more Japanese and using it.

Once I got to a reasonable level of Japanese (after a few months of living in Japan) I exchanged emails with many of my Japanese friends in Japanese. And I started making an effort to make friends who had crappy English, since that forces me to use my rather average (at the moment...) Japanese. Oh yeah, and, um, watching lots of Japanese language anime definitely helps, but be careful what kind of language you pick up! (That goes for what you learn from your girlfriend too! Japanese can be a little different for men and women, so make sure you don't end up talking like a girl! I almost did!)

Lastly, and this is my only real advice, make goals. I lived in Denmark for a year several years ago and mangaged to learn the language almost to fluency in a year, admittedly mostly thanks to being immersed in it all day, every day, but also because I had an ambitious goal. That was to read a Danish author's novel in it's original language (Miss Smilla's Feeling for Snow, which I had already read in English). That goal really helped push me. In Japan my Japanese has been floundering a little (is flounder the right word? Or is it just a kind of fish?), but recently I've tried a lot harder because I committed myself to doing the JLPT Japanese test in December. I hate failing a test... Make goals. Not impossible, but not easy either or you'll never do anything. Good luck with your Japanese study!
 
I'm learning Spanish and Polish at the moment, and loving it. I hired a tutor for 1 or 2 classes a week, but even then I wasn't making much progress until we started speaking exclusively in Spanish. If I didn't have the vocabulary to name something, I had to describe it instead (in Spanish obviously). Also, I've had 3 different teachers, but I've made the most progress with the current teacher who always corrects me immediately when I make a mistake - every time. I think that's important in preventing me from picking up bad habits, making repetitive mistakes.

It's an expensive option, but a good one. It's probably one of the best options, without leaving job & home and immersing yourself in another country (which I hope to do soon anyway! :p) In addition, I try to read Spanish books, and newspapers to improve my vocabulary, and listen to internet radio to improve my understanding.

I've only recently started Polish. Yikes, what grammar. Whoever invented the phrases "double Dutch" and "it's Greek to me" should just have gone for "it's everyday Polish".
 
I second the Genki series. It is by the Japan Times (I believe. Don't have the book on me at the moment.) I really liked the layout of the text.

Off topic: Alexsaru, what level test you taking?
 
rtharper said:
For Irish, the speaker availability is very limited in the States. I never run into anyone and have a community on the 'net. I try and get as much media exposure as possible with online radio, reading websites in the language, etc. This is all VERY hard at first, don't be discourage when it all looks and sounds the same. The more exposure you have, the easier it will be to pick out words and become familiar with idioms in spoken versus written. At first, just try and pick out a few of the basic words you know; that's an accomplishment, and it WILL get easier.

Mind if I ask - are you Irish, or do you have Irish connections? I hear there's quite a few non-Irish-nationals learning the language now, which I think is great, and I'm very curious about.
 
Asxtb and Alexsaru, and anyone else who's not Japanese but lives in Japan:


How much Japanese do you need to get a job in Japan? I mean, if you're foreign, is there any chance of getting a job if your Japanese isn't perfect? I don't wish to get by in English, and I know I wouldn't be able to in Japan, but I'm going to try to learn as much as possible over the next 15 months, and after that......we'll see. I'm interested in working in either a hospital or university, if that matters at all. I'm very worried about how much Japanese I can learn if I'm not actually living there, which is the only reason why I'm worried about my progress.

I've found a Japanese site with Podcasts, which might help with the listening a little bit. The Japanese radio stations I found on iTunes suck, and I wish there was a station where they spoke normally more often. I don't think I have Japanese TV where I am.

I think my best option is to find a tutor. My girlfriend isn't good at explaining Japanese, although another Japanese friend is much better at it. She's a girl too, though. I hope not to pick up girlie speaking habits from either of them. :p
 
Abstract said:
Asxtb and Alexsaru, and anyone else who's not Japanese but lives in Japan:


How much Japanese do you need to get a job in Japan? I mean, if you're foreign, is there any chance of getting a job if your Japanese isn't perfect? I don't wish to get by in English, and I know I wouldn't be able to in Japan, but I'm going to try to learn as much as possible over the next 15 months, and after that......we'll see. I'm interested in working in either a hospital or university, if that matters at all. I'm very worried about how much Japanese I can learn if I'm not actually living there, which is the only reason why I'm worried about my progress.

I've found a Japanese site with Podcasts, which might help with the listening a little bit. The Japanese radio stations I found on iTunes suck, and I wish there was a station where they spoke normally more often. I don't think I have Japanese TV where I am.

I think my best option is to find a tutor. My girlfriend isn't good at explaining Japanese, although another Japanese friend is much better at it. She's a girl too, though. I hope not to pick up girlie speaking habits from either of them. :p
It really depends on what job you want to get. I know of a few people that speak very little Japanese but still managed to get a job here. You may have luck in the medical field. Most doctors have a basic understanding of English. Obviously some are better than others though. You just need to start looking now and getting your foot in the door.
 
whooleytoo said:
Mind if I ask - are you Irish, or do you have Irish connections? I hear there's quite a few non-Irish-nationals learning the language now, which I think is great, and I'm very curious about.

How difficult is it to learn Gaelic, if you already know German? From what I know, Gaelic is based on ancient Swiss.
 
bousozoku said:
How difficult is it to learn Gaelic, if you already know German? From what I know, Gaelic is based on ancient Swiss.

I'm not sure I can really comment - Irish/Gaelic is a mandatory subject here from the age of 4 or 5, so at that age everyone just picks it up without really considering how easy or difficult it is. Though now that I've started picking up other languages, I'd probably guess it's one of the easier languages - there are no genders as in Latin languages, it lacks the complex cases and grammar of many Eastern European languages, and in general the pronunciation and grammatical rules - once you learn them - are reliable with few exceptions. It's certainly much easier than English.

I wouldn't think knowing German would be much of an advantage, though I don't know enough German to know the similarities and differences.I didn't know there was a link between Gaelic and Swiss - interesting!

Oh, and in case you missed it in my sig, here's one word: Mac - Gaelic for son. (First lesson's free! ;) )
 
Phases

Any language you want to learn:
1-Do you really want it? If so you'll inmerse in it, find things you like in that language, if you love movies rent movies, if you like rock music get rock music in that particualr language, etc....use the web
2-Learn the basics, the alphabet and the numbers first, then basic survival phrases
3-Get yourself a dictionary you can have with you everywhere you go: first one to translate from english to the language you are trying to learn, later on replace it with a dictionary only in the language you want to learn
4- Everyday learn a new word, and create sentences with it
5- Once you start thinking in that new language you know you are progressing
6- Make mistakes, that's the best way, and always fix them

Do the best method you feel confortable with.

I liked a lot the Pimsleur way, it's easy to find and to do a lesson each day, it covers survival phrases, and after you know to talk then you can inmerse into the grammar stuff.

Once you are forced to use it you'll master it, prepare for your trip and schedule some training there if you can afford it.

Keep a good discipline, use any method if you are constant you'll master it, it's not so quick but it really worth the investment of time.
________
Land Rover Defender specifications
 
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Great thread!

I'm currently working through Spanish right now. It was my girlfriends first language so I am learning through her somewhat...She also bought me several children's books written in Spanish to help familiarize myself with the language on a basic level...It's kind of slow going right now due to both of our busy schedules, but I am trying.

I like the idea of setting goals, it is just hard to say what would be a reasonable one...and I tend to be overly ambitious though as I would also like to learn Italian, Japanese and Gaelic...and although my GF and her brother are now working on learning Japanese, I am going to solely focus on Spanish rather than learn Japanese with them. I don't want to make things any more difficult on myself.

As to attempt to answer the initial question, I think the immersion method would be best. Alot of natively Spanish speaking people I have spoken with say the ways they learned English was through movies, TV, and just living in the US. I was told a good thing to do, when I have no one to speak with, is to put in a DVD of a movie I know very well and put on the Spanish audio with no subtitles, watch that often. I haven't actually tried that yet but I am intruiged by the idea. Just to pass along that sentiment.
 
Deefuzz said:
I'm currently working through Spanish right now. It was my girlfriends first language so I am learning through her somewhat...She also bought me several children's books written in Spanish to help familiarize myself with the language on a basic level...It's kind of slow going right now due to both of our busy schedules, but I am trying.

That's handy. I'm not going out with any native Spanish speaker (though it's not for the want of trying! :p ), but I'm lucky in that Spanish tutor goes out with me socially so that I can practice speaking and (more importantly) listening to Spanish in natural, noisy environments, plus in a crowded cafe there are lots of topics of conversation walking around, so it's more interesting and less 'dry' than learning in a classroom/living room. And, the vocabulary is more varied so I often pick up useful phrases.

Deefuzz said:
I like the idea of setting goals, it is just hard to say what would be a reasonable one...and I tend to be overly ambitious though as I would also like to learn Italian, Japanese and Gaelic...and although my GF and her brother are now working on learning Japanese, I am going to solely focus on Spanish rather than learn Japanese with them. I don't want to make things any more difficult on myself.

From what I've seen so far, Portuguese has many similarities to Spanish. If you want to pick up another language quickly, that might be another to consider.

Deefuzz said:
As to attempt to answer the initial question, I think the immersion method would be best. Alot of natively Spanish speaking people I have spoken with say the ways they learned English was through movies, TV, and just living in the US. I was told a good thing to do, when I have no one to speak with, is to put in a DVD of a movie I know very well and put on the Spanish audio with no subtitles, watch that often. I haven't actually tried that yet but I am intruiged by the idea. Just to pass along that sentiment.

Good idea. Also, if you can find any, watching a Spanish movie with Spanish sub-titles is a good way to start. As you get the knack of it, then you can turn off the subtitles altogether.
 
thewhitehart said:
Rosetta Stone is excellent. I have used it for Japanese, subscribing to the online lessons. The method invokes a method similar to that used by children's tv shows like Sesame Street. I strongly believe that you must learn a new language as a child does (at an adult's pace, of course). Typical language courses in high school fail to recognize how the brain actually processes language recognition.

Completely agree, I was taught German in School & tried to learn French as an evening class & wasn't that successful. Rosetta stone is the best, as you are learning how a child learns a languge. When I go somewhere & try & use my new language skills I'm always translating in my head what I want to say & can never speak fluently, Rosetta you learn the language as if it's your first so no grammar, which is brilliant. Try ebay for rosetta stone, I got my copy on there & it's so much cheaper.
 
Addressing a couple of earlier queries whilst being too lazy/ignorant to quote multiple people:

Level of Japanese required to get a job in Japan:
- None to beginner : English teaching jobs and not much else
- JLPT level 3 to 2 : Opens the door to jobs for which Japanese is not integral but is important for ease of interaction with other staff and such, e.g. proof-reading, some re-searching jobs, international marketing/promotion (remember the Japanese language proficiency test's lowest level is 4, the highest is 1 which would take a long time to attain)
- JLPT level 1 : Required for interpreting and translation and sometimes for jobs requiring direct interaction with Japanese customers

There are far more opportunities (outside the English teaching realm that is) in Tokyo and Osaka, and to a lesser extent, other major cities. Landing a good job will require research and some initiative.

Check out http://www.tempuniversal.co.jp for a few example jobs (limited to a few industries though) and what level of English they expect. For some jobs the reason they want to know you are semi competent in Japanese is so they can believe that you will be comfortable and capable in Japan and the office in general. Not necessarily because the job requires it.

I'm going for level 4 in the Japanese test by the way. I'm already well above the requirements for it and it should be easy. But level 3 is probably beyond my ability, at least by December. And the jump to level 2 is huge. Level 4, however, only requires 80 odd kanji (chinese characters) plus hiragana and katakana (phonetic characters) combined with about 800 words and some basic grammar.

To anyone learning Japanese, don't let the written language intimidate you. In my experience you can never learn a language well if you don't integrate your spoken language with an ability to at least read (if not write). Kanji are difficult to begin with but it gets easier and easier to learn more and they have slowly become useful in my thinking and understanding of Japanese even for conversation.
 
Alexsaru said:
Addressing a couple of earlier queries whilst being too lazy/ignorant to quote multiple people:

Level of Japanese required to get a job in Japan:
- None to beginner : English teaching jobs and not much else
- JLPT level 3 to 2 : Opens the door to jobs for which Japanese is not integral but is important for ease of interaction with other staff and such, e.g. proof-reading, some re-searching jobs, international marketing/promotion (remember the Japanese language proficiency test's lowest level is 4, the highest is 1 which would take a long time to attain)
- JLPT level 1 : Required for interpreting and translation and sometimes for jobs requiring direct interaction with Japanese customers

There are far more opportunities (outside the English teaching realm that is) in Tokyo and Osaka, and to a lesser extent, other major cities. Landing a good job will require research and some initiative.

Check out http://www.tempuniversal.co.jp for a few example jobs (limited to a few industries though) and what level of English they expect. For some jobs the reason they want to know you are semi competent in Japanese is so they can believe that you will be comfortable and capable in Japan and the office in general. Not necessarily because the job requires it.

I'm going for level 4 in the Japanese test by the way. I'm already well above the requirements for it and it should be easy. But level 3 is probably beyond my ability, at least by December. And the jump to level 2 is huge. Level 4, however, only requires 80 odd kanji (chinese characters) plus hiragana and katakana (phonetic characters) combined with about 800 words and some basic grammar.

To anyone learning Japanese, don't let the written language intimidate you. In my experience you can never learn a language well if you don't integrate your spoken language with an ability to at least read (if not write). Kanji are difficult to begin with but it gets easier and easier to learn more and they have slowly become useful in my thinking and understanding of Japanese even for conversation.

Wow, nice reply. That was really helpful. :) I didn't know about the levels of Japanese, so maybe now I have something to strive for. :) I'll aim for Level 4, but I really hope that in 16 months, I'll be at Level 3.
 
(That goes for what you learn from your girlfriend too! Japanese can be a little different for men and women, so make sure you don't end up talking like a girl! I almost did!)
That's quite funny. :) I did not know that about the Japanese language. Is the reverse true also for being tutored by a guy and picking up male intonations?

I'm in the same predicament now with trying to learn a new language (hopefully proficient enough for my planned travel to China this Christmas). What is the dominant Chinese language I should learn, Cantonese or Mandarin? If I learn Mandarin, is it easy to pick up Cantonese? Do they share similar grammatical structure?

Right now, that's my goal. I hope one day to learn Japanese well enough and also Spanish, Portuguese and Russian.
 
Practise, practise, practise.

Watch Japanese movies.

You might want to be careful of most Japanese movies. The Japanese being spoken in most movies uses a lot of colloquial expressions, short forms or can be period Japanese. It is good to practice tuning your ear, but I have found most of the young kids today speaking Japanese like they are in an Anime. I was a guest speaker at a high school Japanese class and I was shocked at the expression the kids were using. Most of them admitted only wanting to be able to understand J-Pop or Anime and that's fine. However if you are considering working for a Japanese company, you must learn formal Japanese.

That's quite funny. :) I did not know that about the Japanese language. Is the reverse true also for being tutored by a guy and picking up male intonations?

I'm in the same predicament now with trying to learn a new language (hopefully proficient enough for my planned travel to China this Christmas). What is the dominant Chinese language I should learn, Cantonese or Mandarin? If I learn Mandarin, is it easy to pick up Cantonese? Do they share similar grammatical structure?

Right now, that's my goal. I hope one day to learn Japanese well enough and also Spanish, Portuguese and Russian.

It depends on where you are going. However for the most part Mandarin is the dominant language. The major difference is going to be the pronunciation. The best way to tackle that is to learn the 4 four tones (Pin yin). Beijing has its own accent, which is considered kind of high class or snobby. A lot of the words end with an "r" sound. I was in Beijing and Shanghai for a while conducting research on Chinese management structures. I studied Mandarin before I left and it paid off. My Chinese got pretty good while I was there. The characters still drove me nuts since unlike Japanese there is nothing else to fall back on.
 
Practise, practise, practise.

Watch Japanese movies.

Yes, I can imagine someone speaking 15th century Japanese because of this advice. You'd have to be extremely careful of the film because they often don't sound like real Japanese, only real Japanese slang.
 
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