How will cMP support end?

How will cMP support end?

  • Lack of AVX or other Intel instructions

    Votes: 9 37.5%
  • Lack of T1 / Apple In-House Co-Processor

    Votes: 10 41.7%
  • Switch to Apple In-House CPU's

    Votes: 1 4.2%
  • cMP's won't lose support because Apple uses them internally for development

    Votes: 3 12.5%
  • Lack of iMessage / iCloud services

    Votes: 1 4.2%

  • Total voters
    24

eksu

macrumors 6502
Original poster
Aug 3, 2017
256
114
How will our classic Mac Pro's move out of service and into the museum?

Interested in what you all think will be the final straw.
 

tsialex

macrumors 604
Jun 13, 2016
7,624
8,351
Brazil
How will our classic Mac Pro's move out of service and into the museum?

Interested in what you all think will be the final straw.
Just like every other Mac. Apple will release a new Major version without Mac Pro 5,1 support. The last supported one will get security, iTunes and Safari updates for two or three years. Then apps will stop working on the last supported macOS release.
 

Morpheo

macrumors 65816
Feb 26, 2014
1,273
1,588
Paris/Montreal
Just like every other Mac. Apple will release a new Major version without Mac Pro 5,1 support. The last supported one will get security, iTunes and Safari updates for two or three years. Then apps will stop working on the last supported macOS release.
This is like reading how life will end on Earth once the Sun gets too bright. Thanks for ruining my friday.


:D;)
 
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tsialex

macrumors 604
Jun 13, 2016
7,624
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Brazil
This is like reading how life will end on Earth once the Sun gets too bright. Thanks for ruining my friday.


:D;)
You didn't think that Apple will continuously support Mac Pros 5,1, no? ;)

Probably we will see what we're seeing with MP3,1 today, with some hops, you can get the current macOS installed and working.

We will see what I call the hackintoshfication of Mac Pro. But even more or less turning MPs to hacks has it's limits, sometime in the future Apple will compile the kernel with a instruction set that's incompatible with our Xeons, like what happened with Sierra and MP1,1/2,1 or High Sierra AMD 7xxx video drivers and MP3,1.
 
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Morpheo

macrumors 65816
Feb 26, 2014
1,273
1,588
Paris/Montreal
You didn't think that Apple will continuously support Mac Pros 5,1, no? ;)

Probably we will see what we're seeing with MP3,1 today, with some hops, you can get the current macOS installed and working. What I call the hackintoshfication of Mac Pro. But even more or less turning MPs to hacks has it's limits, sometime in the future Apple will compile the kernel with a instruction set that's incompatible with our Xeons, like what happened with Sierra and MP1,1/2,1 or High Sierra AMD 7xxx video drivers.
Mojave is getting us closer to the 1,1/2,1s post-Lion era indeed. Maybe next year we’ll have to look for recommendations in the “10.15 on unsupported macs” thread! :) ...which may not be surprising considering 5,1s are going to be 10 years old soon.

While it’s nice to stay current, I’ll take what Apple gives us and as long as I can do my work on my Mac Pro, all good! Somewhere down this road I’ll get a new Mac too... as always... The circle of computer life! ;)
 

LightBulbFun

macrumors 68020
Nov 17, 2013
2,264
2,153
London UK
I think considering the effort apple put into getting the MP5,1 up to speed for Mojave

and that every MP5,1 running Mojave will have a metal compatible video card (removing the video card limitation that apple has used an excuse to drop support for macs in the past)

I think theres a good chance apple will support the 5,1 in 10.15 :)
 
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tsialex

macrumors 604
Jun 13, 2016
7,624
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Brazil
I think considering the effort apple put into getting the MP5,1 up to speed for Mojave

and that every MP5,1 running Mojave will have a metal compatible video card (removing the video card limitation that apple has used an excuse to drop support for macs in the past)

I think theres a good chance apple will support the 5,1 in 10.15 :)
If they release the MP7,1 before the WWDC'19, I have my doubts if MP5,1 will get 10.15.

If Apple are late with MP7,1, then we have a good chance of 10.15 support, since they usually keep the support list more or less the same for two years.
[doublepost=1538135954][/doublepost]
I think considering the effort apple put into getting the MP5,1 up to speed for Mojave

and that every MP5,1 running Mojave will have a metal compatible video card (removing the video card limitation that apple has used an excuse to drop support for macs in the past)

I think theres a good chance apple will support the 5,1 in 10.15 :)
Apple could do a dirty trick and support only mid-2012 Mac Pros with 10.15. If they do this, will be a time to move serials to the new format en-masse. I hope they don't check SMC versions, that will be almost impossible to fake.
 

pl1984

Suspended
Oct 31, 2017
2,230
2,642
The cMP will probably deteriorate into dust before Microsoft and the Linux community drop support for it.
 

LightBulbFun

macrumors 68020
Nov 17, 2013
2,264
2,153
London UK
Apple could do a dirty trick and support only mid-2012 Mac Pros with 10.15. If they do this, will be a time to move serials to the new format en-masse. I hope they don't check SMC versions, that will be almost impossible to fake.

I doubt apple would do that because Serial numbers and SMCs are subject to change.

(Plus the 2010 and 2012 MPs are literally identical save for a slight CPU clock speed bump)

also its worth mentioning user @bunnspecial owns a 2010 Mac Pro from just before the 2012 models came out, and it has a new format serial number :)
 

redheeler

macrumors 604
Oct 17, 2014
7,659
7,484
My vote (though it's not in the poll): No technical reason, Apple has decided the 5,1 is too old to support and we should upgrade to a newer Mac.

Even with Mojave, it doesn't seem like it would've taken much more effort to support OpenGL Macs for another year. But Metal was a very convenient hardware cut-off top use.
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G3
Mar 10, 2009
8,895
1,752
I think considering the effort apple put into getting the MP5,1 up to speed for Mojave
"... You’ll need to turn off File Vault ....
..... Holding down Option while restarting doesn't allow you to choose an operating system on these Mac Pro models. ..."
Install Mojave 10.14 on Mac Pro 2010 or 2012 support document.

What Apple is doing here is primarily a stop gap because they have no other option. If they release a new Mac Pro with some internal expansion they will have options. Stop gap time will likely be over. These efforts are only enough to keep a subset of folks circling the airport another several (or more than several) months.

Remember this support only came after Apple released the initial betas of 10.14. Apple managed to cobble together something for the Mac Pro 2010-2012 models very late in the game. It was not a priority while they were putting together the bulk of 10.14 or it would have been done by early June. It wasn't.

The video cards are as much riding on the new stuff being added for eGPUs as much as specifically for the Mac Pro. Almost the same exact boot restrictions.


and that every MP5,1 running Mojave will have a metal compatible video card (removing the video card limitation that apple has used an excuse to drop support for macs in the past)
But how many are going to upgrade? Probably a high percentage but the ones that don't make a small group even smaller.

Apple doesn't need an excuse. They have a policy. Vintage and Obsolete Hardware Support The Mac Pro 2010 is already on the Vintage list. The 2012 will be on by Fall 2019. At maximum 2 years (and often sooner) after getting onto the Vintage list systems are typically dropped from OS upgrades too. The clock is already running on the Mac 5,1 since it was technically replaced by the 6,1. (and Apple is probably eager to start to the clock on the 6,1 too. )


I think theres a good chance apple will support the 5,1 in 10.15 :)
If they have completely SNAFU'ed the new Mac Pro product management and won't have anything to release before mid-late December 2019 then there is a decent chance. If Apple does something in Jan-April of 2019 with a new Mac Pro so that they can take the 'temperature' of Mac Pro market before June then probably not.
[doublepost=1538165025][/doublepost]
Interested in what you all think will be the final straw.
Time. Apple has a very long established and explicit policy for discontinuing hardware support. The Vintage and Obsolete policy is 5-7 years after last manufacture (sold ).

"... Apple service providers for 5 years after the product is no longer manufactured—or longer where required by law. ...
... Obsolete products are those that were discontinued more than 7 years ago. ..."

The clock countdown clock has been running on the 5,1 for years at this point. The 5,1 is only getting some "get out of jail free" time because the Mac Pro product management has been so bungled over the last 2-3 years that Apple is off their usual cadence in this corner case.

There was a 3 year gap between the 2010 Mac Pro and the 2013. The +/-2 year slack that builds into the Vintage/Obsolete scope was blown before they even started the clock running. Then the 2013 model went to an even deeper Rip Van Winkle slumber. All the slack/slop is likely gone. Apple has croaked out a kludge primarily only because they have FUBAR the upgrade process so bad they need to kick the can down the road another year to not completely shoot themselves in both feet with a large caliber weapon. .... multiple times.


P.S. Apple recently said they would do some 'extensions' on their Vintage/Obsolete policy where they had sufficient stockpiles of replacement parts. For the Mac Pro that seems quite unlikely since those stockpiles have probably been stretched over a longer than initially projected time at this point with the multiple upgrade product delays.
 
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LightBulbFun

macrumors 68020
Nov 17, 2013
2,264
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"... You’ll need to turn off File Vault ....
..... Holding down Option while restarting doesn't allow you to choose an operating system on these Mac Pro models. ..."
Install Mojave 10.14 on Mac Pro 2010 or 2012 support document.

What Apple is doing here is primarily a stop gap because they have no other option. If they release a new Mac Pro with some internal expansion they will have options. Stop gap time will likely be over. These efforts are only enough to keep a subset of folks circling the airport another several (or more than several) months.

Remember this support only came after Apple released the initial betas of 10.14. Apple managed to cobble together something for the Mac Pro 2010-2012 models very late in the game. It was not a priority while they were putting together the bulk of 10.14 or it would have been done by early June. It wasn't.

The video cards are as much riding on the new stuff being added for eGPUs as much as specifically for the Mac Pro. Almost the same exact boot restrictions.




But how many are going to upgrade? Probably a high percentage but the ones that don't make a small group even smaller.

Apple doesn't need an excuse. They have a policy. Vintage and Obsolete Hardware Support The Mac Pro 2010 is already on the Vintage list. The 2012 will be on by Fall 2019. At maximum 2 years (and often sooner) after getting onto the Vintage list systems are typically dropped from OS upgrades too. The clock is already running on the Mac 5,1 since it was technically replaced by the 6,1. (and Apple is probably eager to start to the clock on the 6,1 too. )




If have completely SNAFU the new Mac Pro product management and won't have anything to release before mid-late December 2019 then there is a decent chance. If Apple does something in Jan-April of 2019 with a new Mac Pro so that they can take the 'temperature' of Mac Pro market before June then probably not.
while I do think Apple is just supporting the MP5,1 just to keep us happy until the 7,1 drops

I dont think it was a last moment thing, keep in mind right from WWDC the 5,1 was on the Mojave support list but just not supported right away in beta 1

much like how APFS booting was not supported with the first few 10.13 betas for the MP5,1.

my best guess for the delay in both cases is the extra validation the MP5,1 would-of needed considering the many different configurations a MP5,1 can be configured/upgraded to be in.
 

tsialex

macrumors 604
Jun 13, 2016
7,624
8,351
Brazil
"
P.S. Apple recently said they would do some 'extensions' on their Vintage/Obsolete policy where they had sufficient stockpiles of replacement parts. For the Mac Pro that seems quite unlikely since those stockpiles have probably been stretched over a longer than initially projected time at this point with the multiple upgrade product delays.
I don't think so, Apple prices for new/refurb Mac Pro 5,1 part are so insane that they could have loads of parts stashed somewhere.

Even here (Brazil) we can buy any mid-2012 part with delivery in less than a week. I made a quotation of some parts last month:

Screen Shot 2018-09-28 at 17.24.54.png


Single tray, just the board = ~$685 without exchanging the old part ~$513 with exchange
Dual tray, just the board = ~$857 without exchanging the old part ~$680 with exchange
Backplane = ~$586 without exchanging the old part ~$502 with exchange
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G3
Mar 10, 2009
8,895
1,752
while I do think Apple is just supporting the MP5,1 just to keep us happy until the 7,1 drops

I don't think it was a last moment thing, keep in mind right from WWDC the 5,1 was on the Mojave support list but just not supported right away in beta 1
And what other Mac was left out of the initial support? Being not supported in beta 1 means you are not a first class supported system. If not first class this year.... what is going to happen when one more additional year ancient?

The notion that the GPU cards are going to be a "get out jail free" card over the long term I think is grossly misplaced. Even more so if there is a empty slot for more than a few of those cards in the new system.



much like how APFS booting was not supported with the first few 10.13 betas for the MP5,1.
Again why is this indicative of being anything but an 'afterthought' on the development priority process? The standard configuration of the Mac Pro 2010-2012 models all had HDDs. Apple said they were going to get around to APFS on HDDs/Fusions later in 10.13 and didn't either. It wasn't surprising at all that actually slipped to 10.14 probably due to complexity and resource priority issues.


my best guess for the delay in both cases is the extra validation the MP5,1 would-of needed considering the many different configurations a MP5,1 can be configured/upgraded to be in.
The systems with primarily boot drives of HDDs wouldn't be getting APFS so they probably didn't put any resources on that at all until had more "copious spare time" late in the process. The MP5,1 was probably not getting an extra throughout validation (substantively better than other Macs being targeted). More MP5,1 had a big enough corner case of boot SSD and was being targeted for support anyway ( the 2012+7 clock was not going to run out in 2018. ). In 2019, the 2012+7 clock will have basically run out on the 2010 models. 2013+6 ( for the 2012 models ) is still in their drop window.
 

AlexMaximus

macrumors 6502a
Aug 15, 2006
912
278
A400M Base
while I do think Apple is just supporting the MP5,1 just to keep us happy until the 7,1 drops

I dont think it was a last moment thing, keep in mind right from WWDC the 5,1 was on the Mojave support list but just not supported right away in beta 1

much like how APFS booting was not supported with the first few 10.13 betas for the MP5,1.

my best guess for the delay in both cases is the extra validation the MP5,1 would-of needed considering the many different configurations a MP5,1 can be configured/upgraded to be in.

Well, I used to have that marvelous G4MDD 1,42 as you have in your sig. I loved that thing and I only sold it because of the Intel switch when the cMP1.1 came out.
With the legendary 5.1 - I think we have a lotta better cards for having a real keeper this time around. No PPC/Intel switch this time. I highly doubt I would need to sell my machine anytime soon. Even with some Apps not running anymore, the most Pro Apps that run well now will run then as well as today.
My 5.1 is still on ElCapitan and I am in no hurry to put it even on HighSierra. I see at least another 6 years live left for the semi-professional, the wedding/vacation/hobby filmer & YouTubers with drones and GoPro folk like me. Plenty of time to save money for that shiny new Mac Pro 8.1 in 2025, - the year we colonize Mars with Space X.
And the new Tesla 3 will be finally available in Germany too by that time....
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G3
Mar 10, 2009
8,895
1,752
I don't think so, Apple prices for new/refurb Mac Pro 5,1 part are so insane that they could have loads of parts stashed somewhere.

Probably not. In general Apple 'hates' inventory. They spend millions to hold some of the lowest inventory rates in the business. There turnover ratio is #1 in the Computer business.

https://csimarket.com/stocks/singleEfficiencyit.php?code=AAPL

What Apple did with that Mac Pro product was first predict in advance how many failures they were going to get of different components and set the prices high enough to pay for long term inventory costs (and margin to cover having to 'eat' whatever is left at the end). They then probably adjusted orders of some components in year 2-3 after they got some feedback on just how far off their predictions were ( during the AppleCare coverage years can get a good snapshot. ). If there is major early component fail rate different they can adjust the stocking levels substantially up but the higher failure rate will only draw that back down over time.

In short, Apple has priced those spare parts high because they don't like inventory. Additionally, to some extent over the end (and after ) the support period so people may buy spare parts elsewhere ( i.e., truly cannibalize old used Mac Pro for parts and take them off the market). Demand is lower because the price is higher. That is only a problem if you order too many in the first place. If you order "just enough' it isn't.


Intel doesn't even sell the processors anymore ( starting years ago at this point). Nobody probably and make any of the other parts either. The high price is for holding that over several years 'just in case' someone needs them.


Apple adjusting the policy for "certain parts if we just happen to have them" is probably going to be far more so restricted to either design "blow ups" ( FUBAR keyboard designs) or expendables that people will increasingly expect ( batteries for the iOS devices ). The first case is where the part usage prediction models are going to have broad error bars on them and this is more so a Scrooge Mc Duck move to trying to sell off more than they want to eat at the end of the cycle ( it will goose profit margin a bit). The second case helps were there is flux about mandated device coverage.

The Mac Pro parts inventory targets were probably fixed more than several years ago. It won't be the first case. Same for the second (that will probably have more impact on stuff that is in the current AppleCare and adjust for long term phase product).

Apple has been pounding the drum beat on Mac Pro retirement every year for the last 3 years. 2008 poof Vintage , 2009 poof. 2010 poof . If they had a vast mountain of spare parts to sell they wouldn't be actively closing out the market for the parts.
 
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deconstruct60

macrumors G3
Mar 10, 2009
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Probably not. In general Apple 'hates' inventory. They spend millions to hold some of the lowest inventory rates in the business. .....

Case on point.... The stockpile of older iMac screens is so low and Apple is offering deals to move up to the latest iMacs or waiting ( and discount fixes ). The price of replacement screen probably isn't moving at all after this shortfall.

https://www.macrumors.com/2018/10/02/late-2014-mid-2015-5k-imac-display-constraint/

Apple will have to buy some more screens, but are handing out discounts so that they can limit the number they need to buy of a 3-4 year old screen they don't generally buy anymore.

Their repair rate model was apparently off, but they are willing to pay that price ( cost of learning to get to a better model ). And those who move to the newer model with screens still being bought for production and fill in a newer forecast model for it. Those 2015 5k iMacs have a large amount of time left on "countdown" clock so they'll need to stock some amount (the 2015 wasn't replaced until 2017 ; nothing happened in 2016). [ probably in part an example of what large delays cause problems for long term replacement stock levels. Folks 'toasting' the displays is also probably a factor also. ]


If in the future Apple has a more plausible Mac Pro substitute to hand out instead of some 9-10 year old part they may not be able to buy at all (without a major re-start production tax), they will probably pull out the same script (with even higher discount. ). However, the more effective solution would be to put the 5,1 into Vintage status as quickly as possible so don't get to this point.
 

MacsRgr8

macrumors 604
Sep 8, 2002
7,855
1,175
The Netherlands
If I had to choose one of the answers in the poll:
The lack of a T1 / Apple co-processor.

Wouldn't surprise me that Apple has already made the hard shift to not support certain Macs for Mojave. The next OS could be "if it runs 10.14 it will run 10.15". Hope so. I lve my Mac Pro 2010 with 7950 Mac edition.
Focus with 10.15 might be iOS apps "ported over" to macOS.

Maybe macOS 10.16 will be the first OS that will be signed like iOS is.

The future macOS might require a T1 or later "security chip" and thus a signed OS. So, no installing from USB, just from internet-recovery or maybe from a future version of Apple Configurator on another secure Mac.

This could help business who like to force-manage their Macs, i.e. DEP wil make enrollment into MDM mandatory etc.

OTOH, a 2017 iMac should be able to run the newest macOS until at least 10.18 orso (if they keep releasing a new OS every year).
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G3
Mar 10, 2009
8,895
1,752
If I had to choose one of the answers in the poll:
The lack of a T1 / Apple co-processor.
It will be long before then. There are 10's of millions of Macs that have been sold over the last 2 years that don't have T-series processors in them. Apple isn't going to wait until those relatively brand new systems completely age out into the Vintage/Obsolete classification to turn of the now relatively 'old as dirt' 5,1 systems.


What Apple will probably dump as a "boot" characteristic sooner rather than later is the Macs that can't Recovery boot over the Internet to the "mothership" securely.



Maybe macOS 10.16 will be the first OS that will be signed like iOS is.
macOS has been "signed like iOS " for several versions already. About System Integrity Protection (SIP) on your Mac .

The future macOS might require a T1 or later "security chip" and thus a signed OS. So, no installing from USB, just from internet-recovery or maybe from a future version of Apple Configurator on another secure Mac.
T1 means that the 'trust' process of authenticating the OS isn't being disrupted/hacked in some way. It is not whether the OS is signed. It already is. T-series closes more loopholes and "rootkit' and 'pre-boot' vectors. It is not the core baseline to securing the OS. There are multiple layers to the security.

Apple may eventually get to stage where can't be done without a T-series but that likely 8-9 years into the future when most of the current Macs in use are also gone. Alot of tech twists and turns can happen in 8-9 years. Apple probably isn't even looking out that far in detail either. (other than they don't want to support most of these Macs at that time with new, bleeding edge macOS instance . )
 

crjackson2134

macrumors 601
Mar 6, 2013
4,735
1,868
Charlotte, NC
I think there's still a bright future for the cMP for the moment.

We just got firmware v. 140.0.0.0.0 that includes official NVMe booting support. It's working well here, and I expect there will be 1 or 2 other enhancements in the pipe that are yet to be released.

Screen Shot 2018-10-08 at 2.50.48 PM.png


Samsung SSD 970 PRO 512GB.png
 
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