HV20 and 24p Pulldown

Discussion in 'Digital Video' started by prs986, Sep 20, 2007.

  1. prs986 macrumors regular

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    #1
    So i'm getting a Canon HV20 and I'm going to need to upgrade my Final Cut Express to FCE HD. Now, I know in FCP (Final Cut Pro) you can remove pulldown while importing......can you do the same in FCE? Or will I need other programs to do this. I have After Effects which I know will do this but i would like to keep all of this in Final Cut. Thanks for your help!
     
  2. trudd macrumors regular

    trudd

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    #2
    I believe the camera will do it automatically. Just import it as 1080/24p footage.

    The camera deals with the pull-down automatically while your computer captures.

    I have an XH-A1 arriving tomorrow. Can't wait to use the 24p in addition to my 35mm adapter...
     
  3. funwithstuff macrumors member

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    Jun 23, 2003
    #3
    The HV20 won't do it automatically, as it stores the progressive image in an interlaced stream. The HV20 has a different progressive mode to the more expensive Canon HDV cameras, which store a true progressive stream.

    You'll need to use Cinema Tools or JES Deinterlacer to perform the pulldown, or get a PAL version of the HV20 and use 25p without any pulldown. Try this forum post for more info: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=92099
     
  4. trudd macrumors regular

    trudd

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    #4
    How is it, then, that people who have XH-A1/G1 and XL-H1 use the HV20 as a deck to save their heads?

    Neither the XH or XL series have true progressive chips (the simply combine interlaced fields to create a progressive Frame, which is why it is referred to 24F and 30F instead of 24p or 30p). I thought this was the same on the HV20?
     
  5. prs986 thread starter macrumors regular

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    #5
    Thanks for the info! After some further reading it looks like there is no "easy" work around for removing pulldown. I was hoping you could do it all in FCP or FCE but I guess not. I guess I'll just have to export everything from AE, remove the pulldown, and back into Final Cut. Thanks for all your help!
     
  6. Carl Spackler macrumors 6502

    Carl Spackler

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    #6
    I could misunderstand what you want to do, but if you're talking about removing pulldown before the editing process, you may find yourself in trouble with Final Cut Express, as I don't think it allows for a 24p (23.98) timeline option.

    If you want to remove pulldown after your done editing, JSE Deinterlacer is truly wonderful and a breeze to use. I recently edited a piece that was shot on an HV20, where the final output was 24p. I just saved the pulldown removal for the final step before delivery to prevent having to have duplicates of all the footage taking up space.

    As a side note, I kept stumbling in FCP and kept counting my seconds at 24 frames and not 30. If you're used to thinking in 24 frame seconds, take note.

    It's a bit of a bummer that the HV20 shoots it's 24p at 2:3 and not 2:3:3:2, but it is aimed at a consumer market and I don't blame Canon for not including pulldown options.
     
  7. prs986 thread starter macrumors regular

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    #7

    Excellent advice!!! The exact answer I'm look for. I also just found out that FCE does not allow 24p timeline. But you made a great suggestion with JSE Deinterlacer. Thanks!
     
  8. mikeyPotg macrumors 6502

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    Mar 20, 2006
    #8
    Hey Carl,

    I hope you get around to responding to this despite being several months late, heh. But can you tell me the settings for your sequence when you edit? Is it like this default setup?
    HD (1440x1080) (16:9)
    Pixel Aspect Ration: HD(1440x1080)
    Editing Timebase 29.97
    Compressor; HDV 1080i60

    Just wondering because I was trying to follow this workflow:
    http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=243
    and I was still having to render some of my files and my FCP was still reading my seconds as 30.

    But it seems to make more sense doing it the way you do it so I don't constantly double all of my files. I just want to make sure that I have the correct settings before I start a big project.
    Thanks!

    For some reason whenever I try to log & capture with FCP 5 and my HV20, it always crashes as soon as I click Log & Capture. I couldn't figure it out so I just captured my footage with iMovie HD. With that said, here's my workflow:Impo

    -Import with iMovie 08 as 1920 x 1080 files
    -Open up JES Deinterlacer & input the file(s) that I imported.
    -Followed the instructions in the above link
    -Opened up FCP & started a new sequence with the settings mentioned in the above link
    -Dragged my Deinterlaced clips to my bin and then the timeline

    It seems to work fine, though granted, I'm VERY new at this whole 24p pulldown removal thing. I just got my camera 2 days ago.
    But here's where it gets weird.
    Some of the files I have to render, while some I don't. It seems strange that a few of the files didn't need rendering when I didn't do anything different to those. Do you think it has something to do with me capturing with iMovie 08?
    Also, the seconds are being read as 30 and not 24. Is that normal?
     
  9. Carl Spackler macrumors 6502

    Carl Spackler

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    #9
    How timely that this came up. I ended up having a bit of an issue with my proposed workflow for removing pulldown after editing. I noticed one of my fades would end abruptly after the pulldown was removed. I believe one of my frames marked for pulldown removal came at the end of the fade. I decided it was probably best to remove pulldown before editing. I took Apple's advice and followed the workflow found here. I realize this refers to FCP6 and you're using FCP5, but this may just mean that you don't have ProRes422 as an option. You should be able to use Apple Intermediate Codec, if I recall correctly.

    This workflow left me with my original HDV files and my inverse telecined files, which I was trying to avoid. Once I was satisfied with the job Compressor did, i just ditched the original captures, figuring I could alway recaputre, if need be.

    Apple's advice is very similar to the first post in the thread, but they use compressor instead. Compressor handles batches much better than JES, but I think either should work just fine.

    I've attached a picture of my sequence settings. I'm using ProRes422, but i'd think whatever codec you use out of JES would go here.

    I think that iMovie 08 captures your footage with AIC, but I am not sure. I had a few Log and Capture issues, but I was capturing to an external drive. Once I switched it to internal, all was fine.

    If your footage out of JES was still 30p (29.97), could it be that you just selected "deinterlace" from JES's Project window and not "Inverse Telecine"? I know that doesn't seem like a likely mistake, but it might be worth revisiting. You can always open that footage in Quicktime and open Window > Movie Inspector. It looks like you Editing Timebase and Compressor are probably off. Editing Timebase for your sequence should be 23.98 and compressor will be what ever codec you used out of JES. Everything else looks fine.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. mikeyPotg macrumors 6502

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    Mar 20, 2006
    #10
    Thanks so much for the response and for posting a SS of your setup. I've imported my footage and it seems to be working well now. Hopefully the export of the final edit will be smooth!
     
  11. mikeyPotg macrumors 6502

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    Mar 20, 2006
    #11
    okay so after having several issues, I decided to buy FCS2 and do a fresh install of my OS and everything.

    now FCS is reading my HV20, which is GREAT! ...but, it automatically splits my footage at random parts. It doesn't even break it new scenes, but its been breaking it up during scenes and I'd really rather not lose the few frames - seconds that I lose when that happens.

    I've tried to search for a way to stop this, but to no avail. Is there a way around this? I'd just like to be able to capture all my footage as one big clip, or at least be able to stop and start where I choose. Do you think it may be a tape issue? I'm using standard mini DV tapes, but I was under the impression the "HDV" tapes were a marketing gimmick.
     
  12. bigbossbmb macrumors 68000

    bigbossbmb

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    #12
    check your user settings to see if FCP is limiting the file size of the capture files. sometimes FCP can be set to break up captures into 2gb files (the default when enabled) so that they'll fit in the FAT file system or be burned to DVD.
     
  13. mikeyPotg macrumors 6502

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    Mar 20, 2006
    #13
    Just checked and it's not set to that. It's actually breaking it up at approximately every 10 - 16 seconds. Very strange, especially since I dont notice any glitches when I play it back on the camera and on the TV. Thanks for the advice though, keep it coming! I also posted on the apple forums, so if I get a response I'll post it here as well.
     
  14. mikeyPotg macrumors 6502

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    #14
    I'm still looking into this, but in case anyone needs more info on my specs, here it is:

    The Canon HV20 is connected directly to the mac pro via the front firewire port. I have a 2.66 xeon mac pro, with 9 gigs of ram. 300gb internal main drive and a 230gb 2nd internal hd. I haven't had this issue before, using my old panasonic PVGS500 minidv camera and same firewire, but I haven't tried it since getting FCS2. I'm using Sony premium minidv tapes.
    I was not multitasking when I noticed the clips were being split up every 10 seconds or so. I got FCS2 yesterday and did a fresh install of leopard and FCS2, then repaired all disc permissions and updated everything.

    I unchecked "Create new clip on start/stop" in the clip settings tab.
    I also unchecked "Abort capture on dropped frames"
    And also selected "Warn after capture" next to "On timecode break", both of which are in the General tab in user preferences.

    I just checked again and noticed that it made a new scene and was "searching for new media" for several seconds while the same scene was still playing. There shouldn't have been any timecode breaks. After about 5 seconds, it started recording its new clip.

    I've tried adjusting the settings I unchecked above, but when I set it to "warn after capture" the capture would stop and I would get an error stating:
    Stream Problem
    Capture was stopped due to a problem with the incoming stream. This might be a problem with the tape. All media up to this point has been preserved.

    It seems to me that the tape isn't playing back properly with FCP and/or for some reason FCP is having a really hard time reading it correctly. Has anyone else experienced this problem?
     
  15. Carl Spackler macrumors 6502

    Carl Spackler

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    #15
    These are probably both long shots, but I wonder if the FW cable isn't faulty. Are you also capturing to an internal drive? If you're capturing to an external drive as anything other than HDV, you may not have enough throughput for the drive to keep up.

    I think that if you create a custom capture preset, you may get the Log and Capture window, which would allow you to "Capture Now", which would give you the one big clip. I'm just trying to go from memory on this, so it may not be right at all.

    For what it's worth, I swear by the Panasonic AMQ tapes. I think they beat the high-end Sony "Master whatnots" hands down.

    Do you get the same problems capturing through iMovie? That may help you narrow the issue.

    That's all I got for now. I wish I could be of more help.
     
  16. highjumppudding macrumors 6502

    highjumppudding

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    #16

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