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I can run full Windows 7 64-bit, but not full Snow Leopard 64-bit? Why?

TheSpaz

TheSpaz

macrumors 604
Original poster
Jun 20, 2005
7,032
1
How come I can run 64-bit Windows 7 on my first gen Mac Pro, but I can't run Snow Leopard as completely 64-bit (with the 64-bit kernel). What am I missing here? Is it truly a hardware limitation or is it just a software block that Apple has put on these machines?

I always thought that you couldn't run Snow Leopard 64-bit Kernel because of the EFI32. After installing Windows 7 successfully, it makes me wonder if the inability of running full 64-bit Snow Leopard is just an artificial limitation.

What's the deal? I could be completely wrong about all of this. I'm still confused about the EFI32 thing. Can someone shed some light on this? Thanks.
 
TheSpaz said:
How come I can run 64-bit Windows 7 on my first gen Mac Pro, but I can't run Snow Leopard as completely 64-bit (with the 64-bit kernel). What am I missing here? Is it truly a hardware limitation or is it just a software block that Apple has put on these machines?

I always thought that you couldn't run Snow Leopard 64-bit Kernel because of the EFI32. After installing Windows 7 successfully, it makes me wonder if the inability of running full 64-bit Snow Leopard is just an artificial limitation.

What's the deal? I could be completely wrong about all of this. I'm still confused about the EFI32 thing. Can someone shed some light on this? Thanks.
Click to expand...

It is not a hardware limitation. It is an artificial limitation that Apple has set in conjunction with the EFI32. The K64 does not load when EFI32 is present on the machine. I'm relatively sure that this is an arbitrary decision which is only implemented to save Apple the necessary testing on machines they have already obsoleted from sales. They do this consistently to save development cost. If a new software feature becomes available after the machine has terminated sales status Apple will regularly refuse to add features that are well within the limits of the hardware if it requires testing and upgrading the firmware on those models. Another example is the use of the Apple 4870 card on the MP1,1 and 2,1. They simply tell you it is not compatible although it runs perfectly. Because they cannot be bothered to do a test they rather tell you it will not work. In the case of K64 it is probably only a line of code that checks for EFI64 being present.
 
gugucom said:
It is not a hardware limitation. It is an artificial limitation that Apple has set in conjunction with the EFI32. The K64 does not load when EFI32 is present on the machine. I'm relatively sure that this is an arbitrary decision which is only implemented to save Apple the necessary testing on machines they have already obsoleted from sales. They do this consistently to save development cost. If a new software feature becomes available after the machine has terminated sales status Apple will regularly refuse to add features that are well within the limits of the hardware if it requires testing and upgrading the firmware on those models. Another example is the use of the Apple 4870 card on the MP1,1 and 2,1. They simply tell you it is not compatible although it runs perfectly. Because they cannot be bothered to do a test they rather tell you it will not work. In the case of K64 it is probably only a line of code that checks for EFI64 being present.
Click to expand...

About the 4870 issue. My 4870 card broke and Apple wouldn't replace it for me because I was using it in an unsupported machine. That's the last time I'm buying an official Apple graphics upgrade. I'm going to be flashing my own cards for now on. Not only do you get better cards, but then they're supported by the card manufacturer rather than Apple.
 
I'm fairly certain the card did not break becuase you were using it in an unsupported machine. If I were you, I would insist that the geniuses test it in a new MP and prove (in front of me) that the card works fine. I'd raise bloody hell in the store if they refused to do this. :mad: And if that didn't work, I'd shadow potential customers and point out every lie that the Apple salesperson would try to sneak past them. The potential revenue loss would hopefully convince the stubborn manager that he/she will be better off giving me a new card or refunding my money :)
 
you can force the 64bit kernel at boot, or you can make it boot by default

just google "boot 64 bit kernel snow leopard"
 
snouter said:
I doubt they'll support a flashed card.
Click to expand...

Even "modder friendly" board makers like XFX and EVGA do not support re-flashed cards. In fact, messing with the ROM is probably the surest way possible to void your graphics card warranty. It's more surefire than overclocking and installing water cooling.
 
TheSpaz said:
About the 4870 issue. My 4870 card broke and Apple wouldn't replace it for me because I was using it in an unsupported machine. That's the last time I'm buying an official Apple graphics upgrade. I'm going to be flashing my own cards for now on. Not only do you get better cards, but then they're supported by the card manufacturer rather than Apple.
Click to expand...

I seriously doubt it's broken, it's more likely you've purchased a card that's simply not compatible with your dated machine. Even with aftermarket or DIY flashed gfx card, you'll still encounter issues.

Simply put, if the graphics card EFI isn't 32bit compatible you'll encounter problems making it work... and as time goes, fewer and fewer cards will have 32bit EFI compatibility.
 
snouter said:
you can force the 64bit kernel at boot, or you can make it boot by default

just google "boot 64 bit kernel snow leopard"
Click to expand...

I would challenge this statement. You can do this with EFI64 machines but not with EFI32. This issue has been widely discussed and is on the permanent list of negatives of Apple's firmware policies.
 
UltraNEO* said:
I seriously doubt it's broken, it's more likely you've purchased a card that's simply not compatible with your dated machine. Even with aftermarket or DIY flashed gfx card, you'll still encounter issues.

Simply put, if the graphics card EFI isn't 32bit compatible you'll encounter problems making it work... and as time goes, fewer and fewer cards will have 32bit EFI compatibility.
Click to expand...

It worked perfectly for 6 months and there are tons of other people using the very same official Apple 4870 in their 2006 Mac Pros. The card is broken.

J the Ninja said:
Even "modder friendly" board makers like XFX and EVGA do not support re-flashed cards. In fact, messing with the ROM is probably the surest way possible to void your graphics card warranty. It's more surefire than overclocking and installing water cooling.
Click to expand...

If I flash it back to the original ROM, would they be able to tell it's been flashed?

snouter said:
you can force the 64bit kernel at boot, or you can make it boot by default

just google "boot 64 bit kernel snow leopard"
Click to expand...

Nope. Not on my machine. It won't boot into 64-bit even if I force it to.

snouter said:
I doubt they'll support a flashed card.
Click to expand...

How would they know it's flashed if I flash back the original ROM backed up from the purchased card?

akadmon said:
I'm fairly certain the card did not break becuase you were using it in an unsupported machine. If I were you, I would insist that the geniuses test it in a new MP and prove (in front of me) that the card works fine. I'd raise bloody hell in the store if they refused to do this. :mad: And if that didn't work, I'd shadow potential customers and point out every lie that the Apple salesperson would try to sneak past them. The potential revenue loss would hopefully convince the stubborn manager that he/she will be better off giving me a new card or refunding my money :)
Click to expand...

No, the card didn't break from the computer I was using it in. It just went bad. I already went to the genius bar and they said they couldn't do anything for me there, so I called Apple tech support and they MADE me give them my serial number. The guy even tried to replace the card for me anyways, but he has to enter a computer serial number in order to issue the replacement and once the computer sees that it's not a compatible computer, he can't get the replacement card.

I'm VERY hesitant to order another 4870. Unfortunately, that's the only card that will work with the new LED 24" Apple Cinema Displays. I asked the guy if they make a card that will run a new LED 24" because I was thinking about buying one, and he said there isn't anything available for me. SO much for upgrading then. I guess they don't want my hard earned cash then. Too bad for them.

I'm never going to buy an official Apple card again if this is how they're going to treat us.
 
TheSpaz said:
It worked perfectly for 6 months and there are tons of other people using the very same official Apple 4870 in their 2006 Mac Pros. The card is broken.
Click to expand...

If you believe that to be true (as in hardware issues) get a genus to check it out!! Until then, you won't know is it actually faulty or through software updates it's been made incompatible.

I ain't sure where you are but in the UK all new goods sold must come with 12mths warranty, and according to our statutory rights you'd be within your rights to get them exchanged out, cause state laws will override whatever Apple wants to say.
 
UltraNEO* said:
If you believe that to be true (as in hardware issues) get a genus to check it out!! Until then, you won't know is it actually faulty or through software updates it's been made incompatible.

I ain't sure where you are but in the UK all new goods sold must come with 12mths warranty, and according to our statutory rights you'd be within your rights to get them exchanged out, cause state laws will override whatever Apple wants to say.
Click to expand...

It wasn't an update that caused the issue. Believe me, it's the card. I was not doing any updates at the time. The moment I noticed it go bad was in the middle of a game in Windows. That's probably what killed it. Trust me, it's not software.

Also, only Apple will replace the card because it is THEIR product and THEIR warranty. Since I don't have a new Mac Pro, they can't give me a new card. I already tried.
 
TheSpaz said:
It wasn't an update that caused the issue. Believe me, it's the card. I was not doing any updates at the time. The moment I noticed it go bad was in the middle of a game in Windows. That's probably what killed it. Trust me, it's not software.

Also, only Apple will replace the card because it is THEIR product and THEIR warranty. Since I don't have a new Mac Pro, they can't give me a new card. I already tried.
Click to expand...

Hmm.. still don't know are you in the USA or Russia!

But, if your in the UK, you're well within your rights to get the card exchanged out, no matter if you've purchased it for a Windows PC. Trading laws in the UK are very strict and they'll override any company rules period!
 
I could buy a new Mac Pro, call Apple, tell them the serial number, get my card replaced, then return the Mac Pro, but the restocking fee would probably defeat the purpose.
 
Plus of course it requires new drivers.

When you have 90% marketshare it's a lot easier to tell hardware manufacturers to write new drivers for your junk.
 
TheSpaz said:
I could buy a new Mac Pro, call Apple, tell them the serial number, get my card replaced, then return the Mac Pro, but the restocking fee would probably defeat the purpose.
Click to expand...

Why don't you PM Spacedust? He has a dead 2008 Mac Pro and I'm sure he'll have no problem giving you the SN, since it's of no use to him (he's in Poland and the machine is not covered by Apple Care). You must have seen his thread, but if not, here it is:


https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/826302/
 
I don't why you folks think that installing a video card in a system that it is not supported in cannot void the warranty.

If Apple did not test the card in that system, they cannot be expected to replace a card that failed while in an unsupported system.

How do you or anyone else know whether or not there is a hardware incompatibility that could cause damage to the card or the system?

S-
 
akadmon said:
Why don't you PM Spacedust? He has a dead 2008 Mac Pro and I'm sure he'll have no problem giving you the SN, since it's of no use to him (he's in Poland and the machine is not covered by Apple Care). You must have seen his thread, but if not, here it is:


https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/826302/
Click to expand...


Perfect! Just hope apple doesn't ask about the machine's current where abouts - though there no reason why you can't just lie.... err it's here :)
 
sidewinder said:
I don't why you folks think that installing a video card in a system that it is not supported in cannot void the warranty.

If Apple did not test the card in that system, they cannot be expected to replace a card that failed while in an unsupported system.

How do you or anyone else know whether or not there is a hardware incompatibility that could cause damage to the card or the system?

S-
Click to expand...


Dunno about the rest of you, but personally, I don't tell apple about all the equipment I use (access to) or own.

...Actually, I don't even tell the government anything... unless they actually ask for specifics and even then I ask question first.
 
sidewinder said:
I don't why you folks think that installing a video card in a system that it is not supported in cannot void the warranty.

If Apple did not test the card in that system, they cannot be expected to replace a card that failed while in an unsupported system.

How do you or anyone else know whether or not there is a hardware incompatibility that could cause damage to the card or the system?

S-
Click to expand...

The thing I'm pissed about is this:

I was saving up for a 24" Apple Cinema Display. I thought "Cool, I already have a graphics card with a mini displayport. All I need now is the display". Then the card crapped out on me... so.... no more LED display for me. When I called Apple to see if they'd replace the card, the guy even told me that Apple doesn't sell ANY video cards compatible with this model that have a mini displayport on them.

It just sucks that it OBVIOUSLY works in my computer. There's not much difference between the inside of the 2008 model and the inside of the 2006 model. I'm sure the card would have eventually broken in any Mac Pro.

I can't take a chance with any other Apple issued cards whether they TECHNICALLY work or not... if they're not going to replace it if it breaks, then I'm not going to buy Apple graphics cards anymore.

By the way... I stuck my old 8800GT back in and it works AMAZINGLY in Windows 7 (64-bit). So I'm pretty happy for now.
 
sidewinder said:
In all likelihood, you are correct. But, it is not a tested configuration so Apple cannot be expected to support it and can be expected to say it voids the video cards warranty. And that is the point.....

S-
Click to expand...

There was nothing in the warranty that said the card is void if I put it in an early Mac Pro. I didn't expect Apple to exchange it for me, but I wanted to try anyways. When I bought it, I knew it wasn't supported for my configuration, but everyone online was saying that it worked without problems. Also, the fact that it's the ONLY card with a mini displayport that will work in my computer, so that had a role in my buying decision too.

I wanted to eventually get an Apple LED Display and that helped in the decision to purchase the 4870, and now without it, I won't be able to spend more money on the display. I think Apple is missing out on this little tid-bit of information.

I honestly doubt that the card broke because of the computer it was in. I mean, other graphics card companies have 2 year warranties on their cards and they have no idea what types of cases and cooling systems people are putting them in. Everyone has a different setup.
 
Oh... and another thing.

iTunes for Windows is 64-bit but, iTunes for Mac OS X is still only 32-bit. I think we should've gotten the 64-bit version before Windows did!

How lame is that?
 
TheSpaz said:
Oh... and another thing.

iTunes for Windows is 64-bit but, iTunes for Mac OS X is still only 32-bit. I think we should've gotten the 64-bit version before Windows did!

How lame is that?
Click to expand...

This again?

That is a 32bit version of iTunes with a 64bit iPod driver. Nothing more.
 
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