I gave up...

[Dr.Gargoyle]

I'm just saying the witch hunt for unlockers is hurting what could be an even bigger bottom line...

I couldn't agree more. I don't think Apple has understood the cellphone market outside US. You need to sell tons of cellphones in order to be able to sell any particular model at a competitive price and still make money. This has to be done very short period because a phone is basically outdated after 12-18 months. In the mean time you have to spend more money in developing new phones. It looks to me as Apple is trying to pull this off in US market alone. A market that by any comparison is minute considering how many GSM/WCDMA units are sold on a yearly basis in the world.
It has gone 9 months now since the iPhone was introduced... I seriously hope Apple has made break even by now, because all the other SE, Nokia, LG aren't sitting idle.

I honestly believe that Apples business model has crippled sales significantly. If you are entering a highly competitive mature market where you have a giant with a 40% world market share, you really have to play nice with your initial customers or you are gone. Carrier exclusive phones and chasing the few users that want/need an unlocked phone or third party apps is not what I would call playing nice.

 

[andiwm2003]

.................................... Carrier exclusive phones and chasing the few users that want/need an unlocked phone or third party apps is not what I would call playing nice.

i don't think apple has a choice here. they have a exclusive contract with some carriers and in every contract it certainly says that apple has to make a reasonable effort to keep the phones locked down. if apple doesn't enforce locking the phones they will certainly have to pay damages to the providers.

and trying to sell a unlocked phone doesn't really work either because apple wants the phone services to provide extra services like visual voicemail.

the only way out is that apple makes the phone companies offer reasonable international contracts. i think apple could convince the providers to cooperate internationally on the iphone. in that case we wouldn't need or want an unlocked phone.

then apple would just have to come up with some productivity software like pdf viewer, syncing notes and such.

 

[PDE]

Just imagine if Apple had adopted a simple, global strategy of selling the iphone unlocked so that it was sold by every major carrier and mobile phone retail outlet in the world - WOW! I bet they would have sold several times what they accomplished so far. It's such a tremendous missed opportunity, not to mention how much trouble it it must cause for everybody, including Apple itself, to have these individual exclusive deals with carriers on a country by country basis.


Just tried the SE P1i and I'm still with the iphone. Functionality is infinitely better on the SE, but if I don't use because it's buried in the menu system that makes no difference. Three people were trying to figure out how to get back to the main manu. It was through a button on the side, but it require multiple presses depending on how deep you were in the menu system. All in all, the UI was embarrassingly poor compared to the iphone. I realise that my options are few: either the iphone with 1.0.2 firmware and third party apps OR a small phone, a PDA and an ipod......

i don't think apple has a choice here. they have a exclusive contract with some carriers and in every contract it certainly says that apple has to make a reasonable effort to keep the phones locked down. if apple doesn't enforce locking the phones they will certainly have to pay damages to the providers.

and trying to sell a unlocked phone doesn't really work either because apple wants the phone services to provide extra services like visual voicemail.

the only way out is that apple makes the phone companies offer reasonable international contracts. i think apple could convince the providers to cooperate internationally on the iphone. in that case we wouldn't need or want an unlocked phone.

then apple would just have to come up with some productivity software like pdf viewer, syncing notes and such.

As a frequent traveller between East Asia, Europe and the U.S., what I need most when I'm communicating locally is the ability to give somebody my LOCAL number so they can get back to me. Roaming with a U.S. number in places where people simply can't call it because of the cost or restrictions on international calling from their cell phones (or just not being used to calling abroad) is just not an option. Not to mention the cost I would incur when somebody calls me.

 

[Dr.Gargoyle]

the only way out is that apple makes the phone companies offer reasonable international contracts. i think apple could convince the providers to cooperate internationally on the iphone. in that case we wouldn't need or want an unlocked phone.

I am not so sure. The best way out of this mess would be to come up with a new phone quick and sell it unlocked and hope that AT&T and the other carriers still would support visual voicemail.

I really can't see how sacrificing unlocked phones would be set off by visual voicemail. How Apple can come to this conclusion is beyond me.

Just curious, just how many people would prefer an unlocked phone without visual voicemail compared to what we have now? I would love to see a poll on that. I bet over 90% would prefer unlocked phones.
Is there anyone out there that can start a poll?

@ PDE - You nailed it. Thank you, there is still hope for mankind. Perhaps not the beancounters at Apple, but people in general.

 

[gkarris]

Just curious, just how many people would prefer an unlocked phone without visual voicemail compared to what we have now? I would love to see a poll on that. I bet over 90% would prefer unlocked phones.
Is there anyone out there that can start a poll?

Don't bother. If you read a lot of the posts around here, it's definitely an unlocked iPhone...

 

[Dr.Gargoyle]

Don't bother. If you read a lot of the posts around here, it's definitely an unlocked iPhone...

Well one could just hope someone at Apple got to see it. Just as PDE stated above, Apple would have sold many more phones if they had gone with an unlocked phone.
One can only hope there is a cunning plan behind this mess.
It would be brilliant if Apple sold their first (sub par) cellphone as a carrier exclusive phone just to make the carriers invest in visual voicemail support, just to be able to sell the next phone unlocked.

 

[Sobe]

hmmm selling many more iPhones unlocked or selling them locked...

Just another argument for this phone being far more subsidized than people are willing to recognize.

Why? It's the only thing that makes sense when you consider the global market.

In return for reducing risk, they get an automatic return for many months down the road.

That's guaranteed revenue 12 months from now.

Which makes perfect sense when you consider the risk of entering a brand new market.

 

[andiwm2003]

I................................
I really can't see how sacrificing unlocked phones would be set off by visual voicemail. How anyone can come to this conclusion is beyond me.

Just curious, just how many people would prefer an unlocked phone without visual voicemail compared to what we have now? I would love to see a poll on that. I bet over 90% would prefer unlocked phones.
Is there anyone out there that can start a poll?

@ PDE - You nailed it. Thank you, there is still hope for mankind. Perhaps not the beancounters at Apple, but people in general.

if you read my post again you won't find anywhere that i said visual voice mail offsets sacrificing unlocked phones. i said that apple want's special services LIKE visual voice mail. selling music via itunes, selling ringtones, revenue sharing from the contracts all factor in. maybe non competition from other phones on certain features? who knows. so there is no reason to be insulting.

regarding the poll: you would need to do it outside this forum. my boss has an iphone and she doesn't care a bit about unlocking the phone. she is interested in the features she gets. i could imagine that most users would never hack an iphone and never consider switching the sim. my mother doesn't even know what a sim card is. i switch sim cards only because of frequent travels to europe. but how many people have that need. i doubt that replies on this forum represent the majority of customers.

but back on topic:

i think as the situatuion is NOW AFTER apple signed those exclusive contracts the only way out is a good international roaming plan. just releasing a new version of the iphone that is unlocked could be prohibited in those contracts with the phone companies.

 

[Unspeaked]

hmmm selling many more iPhones unlocked or selling them locked...

Just another argument for this phone being far more subsidized than people are willing to recognize.

I don't know, I still think that beyond maybe some contribution to the R&D, these are selling at retail.

Otherwise, the iPod Touch would be way more, since it's very similar.

I think the reason for the contract is that for the first time in a LONG time, Steve & Co. weren't sure about something. Especially something on their own. Afterall, the iPhone is a whole new thing for them, even more so than the iPod was - it goes well beyond just a computer gadget. I think they were really unsure how it would do if they released it alone, and wanted the backing and shared risk of the AT&T relationship.

Knowing then what they know now, I bet they regret it, but they've painted themselves into this corner and have to live with upsetting a lot of their user base...

 

[plumbingandtech]

I'm just saying the witch hunt for unlockers is hurting what could be an even bigger bottom line...

And using a phone on a non-ATT network is ALSO hurting the bottom line since apple does not get their per month fees from them like they do ATT.

I think the reason for the contract is that for the first time in a LONG time, Steve & Co. weren't sure about something

Or that's just the way the US phone markets work right now.

I bet they regret it,

Yes. If I made the same amount of money as apple has on the iphones in just three months I would "regret" it too.

I bet they regret it, but they've painted themselves into this corner and have to live with upsetting a lot of their user base...

Take a look at the hacking poll on the front page. They are not upsetting that many people other then the hackers who STILL think they are more then a minor part of the iphone user base.

2389 people. + those hackers out there that have not taken the poll.

1.5 million iphones.

A small small small (and whiney) part of the user base.

 

[Dr.Gargoyle]

hmmm selling many more iPhones unlocked or selling them locked...

Just another argument for this phone being far more subsidized than people are willing to recognize.

Why? It's the only thing that makes sense when you consider the global market.

In return for reducing risk, they get an automatic return for many months down the road.

That's guaranteed revenue 12 months from now.

Which makes perfect sense when you consider the risk of entering a brand new market.

We have a saying here in Sweden that seems fitting to this strategy.
Translated it would be something like:

"The surgery was successful, but the patient died."

If you enter a new market you cannot PO your initial customer base which in fact is exactly what Apple has succeeded doing.

 

[Dr.Gargoyle]

if you read my post again you won't find anywhere that i said visual voice mail offsets sacrificing unlocked phones. i said that apple want's special services LIKE visual voice mail. selling music via itunes, selling ringtones, revenue sharing from the contracts all factor in. maybe non competition from other phones on certain features? who knows. so there is no reason to be insulting.

I am sorry if I came out as a jerk. It wasn't my intention to insult you in any way and if I did I am truly sorry.
You are of course correct, there are more carrier implemented software support besides visual voicemail. However, I still stand by my opinion that Apple in the end will lose more from customers like me that are forced to find other options than they will gain from selling ringtones and revenue sharing.
Still, as always that is just my opinion.

i think as the situatuion is NOW AFTER apple signed those exclusive contracts the only way out is a good international roaming plan. just releasing a new version of the iphone that is unlocked could be prohibited in those contracts with the phone companies.

I think one has to ask what Apple can do now. I just don't see how Apple could influence or help negotiations between carriers to promote international roaming at decent tariffs.
It would be unheard of if Apple gave AT&T exclusive deals on all their phones for the upcoming next five years. I have never even heard of a contract like that in the cellphone industry. I know of a one year model specific deals a couple of years ago (SE V800 - Vodaphone)
If you are correct I just don't see how Apple can get out of this mess by themselves.

 

[Unspeaked]

And using a phone on a non-ATT network is ALSO hurting the bottom line since apple does not get their per month fees from them like they do ATT.

Take a look at the hacking poll on the front page. They are not upsetting that many people other then the hackers who STILL think they are more then a minor part of the iphone user base.

2389 people. + those hackers out there that have not taken the poll.

1.5 million iphones.

Man, you're a piece of work.

First of all, the non-ATT network traffic you're talking about - if you bothered reading these posts - is traffic that would be non-ATT regardless. These are people who care more about their network than their phone, and thus haven't bothered buying an iPhone. If it were unlocked, that's $399 in Apple's pocket. Since it's locked, it's ZERO DOLLARS in Apple's pocket because none of these people are switching to AT&T (most of them can't, anyway, because they're not in the US!).

As for the second part of your comment, it's gotten to the point that I'm embarrassed to even correct you again, but I will: as I and about twenty other people have pointed out, YOU CAN'T JUST TAKEN NUMBERS FROM A SAMPLE AND COMPARE THEM TO THE FULL INSTALL BASE.

That's like me asking eight of my friends if they like chocolate, and five say "no." Well, that must mean everyone in the world dislikes chocolate since I could only find three people that said they did.

Please, just quit arguing before you make yourself look even more foolish...

 

[jt2ga65]

Take a look at the hacking poll on the front page. They are not upsetting that many people other then the hackers who STILL think they are more then a minor part of the iphone user base.

2389 people. + those hackers out there that have not taken the poll.

1.5 million iphones.

A small small small (and whiney) part of the user base.

Your argument is basically that ignorance is bliss. Most people don't know that there is more that can be done with their iPhone, so they are happy with what they have. Imagine if it was EASY to install 3rd party apps, and use their iPhone on another network, and it was as well advertised as the initial iPhone was. How many of these people would then be happy that their choice was taken away?

And, I certainly do not think that the MR forums can claim 1.5 million active users. Let's be realistic about the poll numbers.

And the only thing I really want is the ability to use MY ringtone. The one I've used for the past 3 years on several other phones. The one that's not available on iTunes, or any other ringtone store.

-jt2

 

[Telp]

I love my iphone, and im not just saying that cause im a fanboy. I love the ease of use, the UI, all the different software that goes into it. Its true it has a lot of shortcomings, but im willing to live with it because of how much i love the phone. I can totally understand how a lot of people would not like this, and choose not to buy the iphone because of these those, and in that way, i think Apple should rethink the way they are doing this.

 

[Dr.Gargoyle]

These are people who care more about their network than their phone, and thus haven't bothered buying an iPhone. If it were unlocked, that's $399 in Apple's pocket. Since it's locked, it's ZERO DOLLARS in Apple's pocket because none of these people are switching to AT&T (most of them can't, anyway, because they're not in the US!).

The main problem, as I see it, by making the iPhone carrier exclusive Apples business plan has effectively excluded all people that travel outside their home country more than once per year from their potential customer base. Since international roaming/calls can be seen as a modern form of highway robbery, travelers are more or less forced to get a local SIM card for reasons stated by PDE:

Roaming with a U.S. number in places where people simply can't call it because of the cost or restrictions on international calling from their cell phones (or just not being used to calling abroad) is just not an option. Not to mention the cost I would incur when somebody calls me.

IMHO, I believe the group of travelers is large enough to make the revenues from contracts, itunes and ringtones dwarf in comparison with the loss of sales from potential iPhone buyers. Not to mention stigmatization Apple most likely will suffer in non US markets. This kind of treatment is basically not seen as kosher over here.
Moreover, the market penetration outside US would have been much better if Apple had sold the iPhone unlocked since you basically haven't been able to get the phone legally outside US.

 

[Sobe]

I understand the argument of selling more phones.

What I am more interested in is surely Apple was aware of this.

If any company could totally bypass the telcos and sell unlocked phones directly to the masses it would be Apple.

But...they chose not to.

What was the decision making process?

It's all speculation, but that's what fascinates me...much like sports, watching people make real decisions then watching them play out in real time.

 

[megfilmworks]

Regarding Dr. Gargoyle's post:

"I really can't see how sacrificing unlocked phones would be set off by visual voicemail. How Apple can come to this conclusion is beyond me.
Just curious, just how many people would prefer an unlocked phone without visual voicemail compared to what we have now?"


I hope they don't get rid of visual voicemail just to sell more phones. That is one of the most useful features for a heavy user there is. Sell less phones and keep the features unique!

 

[Dr.Gargoyle]

What was the decision making process?

Since the iPhone has more or less been exclusive to US , I think they went with a business model common to the american market...as simple as that.
I think Ockham agrees with me. The plan is very similar to what you use in US, so...

I hope they don't get rid of visual voicemail just to sell more phones. That is one of the most useful features for a heavy user there is. Sell less phones and keep the features unique!

I am quite sure you are safe. The software is implemented into the network. I cannot see any reason why AT&T would kick it out.