What was Apple thinking? No SCSI support. Hard drive corruption. FireWire and USB issues. And the finder is as slow as ever. I am a very productive graphics professional and will be spending much more time on XP until Apple gets rid of the Sugar and gives me some real meat.
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I Hate Panther
- Thread starter bhancock
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while you have some valid points, you are very wrong in two:
-for the large majority of users, the finder is much faster in panther.
-if you don't like os x, then you us os 9. a true designer does not switch to windows. os 9 is still the preferred os of most creatives.
-for the large majority of users, the finder is much faster in panther.
-if you don't like os x, then you us os 9. a true designer does not switch to windows. os 9 is still the preferred os of most creatives.
Panther is working fine for me. It's fast, no corruption on my system, and I've never found a use for my SCSI port on my older PowerBook in the 4 years I've used it.
I have none of these issues. My finder is faster than ever. It's also made of metal, so it will not break as easy. My FW is fine. My USB is fine. I take work home with me, so it's compatible with the classic mac experience. It's also compatible with (gulp) Windows networks.
Scuzzy? Old technology is old for a reason. If your equipment still requires scuzzy then buy new equipment. I think they will stop manufacturing these drives/devices in less then 5 years anyway. I'm not saying you have to do it right now. I'm just saying that it is inevitable. Any one (including mac users) who buys a computer thinking -- that's it, Im set for the next decade -- is sadly mistaken. computers are not cars. They are not trusty old washing machines.
* I will say, however, that in the 4.5 years I had my mac, my room mate had gone through 3 PC's! He just bought a PB.
Enjoy your Extra Patches.
Scuzzy? Old technology is old for a reason. If your equipment still requires scuzzy then buy new equipment. I think they will stop manufacturing these drives/devices in less then 5 years anyway. I'm not saying you have to do it right now. I'm just saying that it is inevitable. Any one (including mac users) who buys a computer thinking -- that's it, Im set for the next decade -- is sadly mistaken. computers are not cars. They are not trusty old washing machines.
* I will say, however, that in the 4.5 years I had my mac, my room mate had gone through 3 PC's! He just bought a PB.
Enjoy your Extra Patches.
logic? what's that?
scsi is much faster than ata...
Amazing that people don't know that firewire drive enclosures are using ata drives...
scsi is much faster than ata...
It's a good thing my B&W G3 didn't know there was no SCSI support--it wouldn't boot from its Ultra2SCSI drive. 
I don't think Apple is going to change direction suddenly for bhancock or any other one person, right? I guess someone will be enjoying WinXP quite a lot.
j33pd0g:
It's just a good thing that most servers are using SCSI drives. The internet would be a much slower place (destination?) if the world was using ATA, Ultra, embededed in FireWire, or otherwise.
I don't think Apple is going to change direction suddenly for bhancock or any other one person, right? I guess someone will be enjoying WinXP quite a lot.
j33pd0g:
It's just a good thing that most servers are using SCSI drives. The internet would be a much slower place (destination?) if the world was using ATA, Ultra, embededed in FireWire, or otherwise.
Re: logic? what's that?
i'm not sure if your insulting me, agreeing with me, or just picking out random things in my arguments .
Now, i know that SCSI is faster then ATA, thats why i have SCSI drives in the first place.
but here is something for you to ponder: my System drive is ATA, spinning at 5200 RPM and i get a crisp clear capture, comparable in every-way to my UltraWide SCSI drive capture spinning at 10000 rpm.
what, are you just trying to raise your post counts or something, come back when you've got something productive to say.
i'm not sure if your insulting me, agreeing with me, or just picking out random things in my arguments
. Now, i know that SCSI is faster then ATA, thats why i have SCSI drives in the first place.
but here is something for you to ponder: my System drive is ATA, spinning at 5200 RPM and i get a crisp clear capture, comparable in every-way to my UltraWide SCSI drive capture spinning at 10000 rpm.
what, are you just trying to raise your post counts or something, come back when you've got something productive to say.
Firewire drives are not recommended for AV work.
They are a reasonably fast hot-swappable storage solution, not a replacement for fast AV drives.
Hard drive corruption?
Where'd that come from?
Journaling should theoretically make the drive less susceptible to corruption.
What Firewire and USB issues?
(besides the well known, and now fixed FW800 issue)
The Finder is faster now than it was in Jaguar, and more functional than it ever was in OS9.
BTW, WinXP/2000 and OSX are really the only two main platforms available for the latest versions of many DTP programs, and are equally suitable for this task.
(WinXP is VERY stable, although it seems to be a constant security problem lately)
OS9 is essentially obsolete, except for Pagemaker and Quark5 die-hards.
They are a reasonably fast hot-swappable storage solution, not a replacement for fast AV drives.
Hard drive corruption?
Where'd that come from?
Journaling should theoretically make the drive less susceptible to corruption.
What Firewire and USB issues?
(besides the well known, and now fixed FW800 issue)
The Finder is faster now than it was in Jaguar, and more functional than it ever was in OS9.
BTW, WinXP/2000 and OSX are really the only two main platforms available for the latest versions of many DTP programs, and are equally suitable for this task.
(WinXP is VERY stable, although it seems to be a constant security problem lately)
OS9 is essentially obsolete, except for Pagemaker and Quark5 die-hards.
Sata is more than enough competitor for most scsi.... it can't compete with the current uber one that is out now, but still, 150MB/s
Yes Apple stopped shipping SCSI solutions for PowerMacs and now offer the big RAID enslosure, but the third-party market still offers SCSI.
It's up to the 3rd parties to update their drivers, not Apple.
Plus there have been issues with SCSI since the B&W G3 and every HW and OS update since then (seems like). So there is no surprise that more might crop up with the PowerMac G5 and Panther.
---
Wintel is cheaper and less expensive than any Mac solution with oodles of options...
No reason for you to switch and far fewer problems on the dark side, than the Panther problems.
I can't understand why you'd ever leave Wintel.
It's up to the 3rd parties to update their drivers, not Apple.
Plus there have been issues with SCSI since the B&W G3 and every HW and OS update since then (seems like). So there is no surprise that more might crop up with the PowerMac G5 and Panther.
---
Wintel is cheaper and less expensive than any Mac solution with oodles of options...
No reason for you to switch and far fewer problems on the dark side, than the Panther problems.
I can't understand why you'd ever leave Wintel.
although i dont use scsi, i havent found anything that says there is no support. i have a scsi section in my apple system profiler and also see support for scsi scanners on the panther web site. but like i said i dont use scsi so i really wouldnt know. from the looks of it you have no desire to have us help you with your problems, just make threads on how you hate panther so maybe windows is a better solution for you, hope it works out.
iJon
iJon
Re: I Hate Panther
<edit>
Big cats like real meat.
</edit>
Dude. Have fun on XP. I wish you well. If you are doing anything print related, I'd like to hear how QuarkXPress and Photoshop's color profiles work out for ya on XP.
<edit>
Big cats like real meat.
</edit>
Re: Re: I Hate Panther
But wasn't the point of the orignial post that 10.3 is causing him significant problems? He/She doesn't WANT to use XP. I think folks are missing some of the angst in the post there. Here's a guy whose shelled the money (I'm guessing quite a lot for his professional system needs) on his Apple equipment and spent the money on 10.3 - I think it's obvious that he LIKES Macs.
A lot of folks have had some angst from 10.3 - I've spent $265 on an internal print server after my HP 2100 wouldn't work after the 10.3 install (recognized, but the printer would not respond / print). As is noted on another thread, there's a strange issue with two CD-R images appearing in iTunes and iPhoto, and a whole thread full of other problems.
I think the guy wants to use his Mac, but like a lot of folks he's just having problems doing it. Let's support our fellow Mac users in their hard times.
But wasn't the point of the orignial post that 10.3 is causing him significant problems? He/She doesn't WANT to use XP. I think folks are missing some of the angst in the post there. Here's a guy whose shelled the money (I'm guessing quite a lot for his professional system needs) on his Apple equipment and spent the money on 10.3 - I think it's obvious that he LIKES Macs.
A lot of folks have had some angst from 10.3 - I've spent $265 on an internal print server after my HP 2100 wouldn't work after the 10.3 install (recognized, but the printer would not respond / print). As is noted on another thread, there's a strange issue with two CD-R images appearing in iTunes and iPhoto, and a whole thread full of other problems.
I think the guy wants to use his Mac, but like a lot of folks he's just having problems doing it. Let's support our fellow Mac users in their hard times.
But the problems he's listed:
SCSI support--there is SCSI support in Panther from what I can tell with System Profiler listing it and the SCSI on my PowerBook is recognized just fine.
USB/Firewire problems--I haven't seen nor heard of a single USB problem and the only Firewire problem was a select few FW HDs which appears to have been addressed.
Hard Drive corruption--what corruption? I haven't seen any reports of that both on these forums and on Apple's support section. If he means FileVault, no one is making him use it and Apple fixed that problem, anyway, so that is taken cared of.
Finder being slow--Finder is about as snappy as OS 9 was. If they didn't have as many animations it would give it more of an appearance of snappiness, too. Not being academic about my figure, I'd say a good 85-90% of all reports I've seen agree that Finder is faster by a great magnitude over Puma or Jaguar.
If he has a problem, I am sure we'd all be more than happy to help him resolve his issues and if we cannot help, Apple could. If he'd like to give details, we can all start helping right away.
SCSI support--there is SCSI support in Panther from what I can tell with System Profiler listing it and the SCSI on my PowerBook is recognized just fine.
USB/Firewire problems--I haven't seen nor heard of a single USB problem and the only Firewire problem was a select few FW HDs which appears to have been addressed.
Hard Drive corruption--what corruption? I haven't seen any reports of that both on these forums and on Apple's support section. If he means FileVault, no one is making him use it and Apple fixed that problem, anyway, so that is taken cared of.
Finder being slow--Finder is about as snappy as OS 9 was. If they didn't have as many animations it would give it more of an appearance of snappiness, too. Not being academic about my figure, I'd say a good 85-90% of all reports I've seen agree that Finder is faster by a great magnitude over Puma or Jaguar.
If he has a problem, I am sure we'd all be more than happy to help him resolve his issues and if we cannot help, Apple could. If he'd like to give details, we can all start helping right away.
Re: Re: Re: I Hate Panther
i agree ... it's been a hard transition from OS 9 to OS 10 for me... but not enough to make me switch back to MS .... i'de rather use old software then new software on a MS OS
Originally posted by law guy
But wasn't the point of the orignial post that 10.3 is causing him significant problems? He/She doesn't WANT to use XP. I think folks are missing some of the angst in the post there. Here's a guy whose shelled the money (I'm guessing quite a lot for his professional system needs) on his Apple equipment and spent the money on 10.3 - I think it's obvious that he LIKES Macs.
A lot of folks have had some angst from 10.3 - I've spent $265 on an internal print server after my HP 2100 wouldn't work after the 10.3 install (recognized, but the printer would not respond / print). As is noted on another thread, there's a strange issue with two CD-R images appearing in iTunes and iPhoto, and a whole thread full of other problems.
I think the guy wants to use his Mac, but like a lot of folks he's just having problems doing it. Let's support our fellow Mac users in their hard times.
i agree ... it's been a hard transition from OS 9 to OS 10 for me... but not enough to make me switch back to MS .... i'de rather use old software then new software on a MS OS
I'd like to believe that these kinds of posts really come from Macintosh users. However, when someone posts a vague rant and doesn't return after a day or two, it makes me suspicious. As far as I'm concerned, this person looks like a Windows fan now.
I thought the same thing but I am trying to give the benefit of a doubt and try to help if he comes back.
Hmm
If anyone is interested, just go to macfixit.com and look down the very very long list of Panther problems and issues. It is astonishing. For a relatively minor upgrade it is sure causing a ton of problems.
I am a graphics pro and have been using the Mac since it was first available for DTP. Over 10 years now. I have come along faithfully with all of the problems and upgrades one OS to the next and was one of the first who bit the bullet and switched to OSX for my production work over 2 years ago (at that point I did mostly Retouching and Prepress)
In my history with graphics and prepress, I have owned a lot of equipment, including very costly drum scanners and printers, tape drive etc etc. I have loyally supported Apple and put down graphics pros who tried to do graphics on Windows.
But now all the reasons that originally made it vital for a DTP desiger or prepress person or retoucher to use a Mac, (including color management) have been eliminated. I have a 3ghz Dell workstation and a Dual 1ghz G4 literally side by side on the same desk and I assure you that if I bring up the same scan side by side on both machines in Photoshop that they are virtually identical. The Creative Mac advantage no longer exists. I use Photoshop, Golive, Freehand, Dreamweaver, Flash, Fireworks, Painter, Illustrator, Quark, Indesign, Suitcase and more on both XP and OSX. There is virtually no difference any more.
If the Mac Advantage has been eliminated for creatives, there have to be other things that give me a reason to use my Mac other than a warm fuzzy feeling about the past and how great is was to be one of the chosen few. Speed and efficiency are among these reasons. I have a lot of work to do and I need to do it efficiently. The price difference is not really an issue for me. I will use what gets my work done in the least amount of time
I was very enthusiastic about OSX from the outset and loved the fact that I could finally print and work at the same time. Something that was not possible on OS9. I accepted the rotating pie chart as an evil necessity. I really thought that by 10.1 or 10.2 that would be fixed. Here we are over 2 years later on 10.3 and if I click from one drive to another on my Dual G4,that was bought last July, I still have to wait between 1 and 10 seconds until the list appears. For someone who uses 4 internal hard drives and about 10 externals, this is not an option. I really don't care about Expose or the genie effect. I just want to be able to fly though my drives and find what I need to find and then continue what I was doing.
Why do I suddenly have equipment that worked fine in Jaguar and is now virtually impossible to use in Panter? Again I stress that my G4 is only a year and 4 months old. And my Imacon scanner is not much older. I was able to move from OS 9 to OS X with my scsi drives, and PCI cards and tape drives and scanners. Why can't I do the same from 10.2 to 10.3? It is not a major upgrade!!
So here I am hating that fact that I now have to spend most of my days working on XP. If anyone has a better solution for someone who has millions of files, thousands of fonts and Terrabyes of video please let me know.
And I think it is naive to say that most windows users dream about a Mac. It is not a useful discussion. Again, I have no love at this point for Microsoft or Apple. XP is a very stable and extremely cutomizable OS much to my surprise. And there is a much wider selection of software to choose from.
If anyone is interested, just go to macfixit.com and look down the very very long list of Panther problems and issues. It is astonishing. For a relatively minor upgrade it is sure causing a ton of problems.
I am a graphics pro and have been using the Mac since it was first available for DTP. Over 10 years now. I have come along faithfully with all of the problems and upgrades one OS to the next and was one of the first who bit the bullet and switched to OSX for my production work over 2 years ago (at that point I did mostly Retouching and Prepress)
In my history with graphics and prepress, I have owned a lot of equipment, including very costly drum scanners and printers, tape drive etc etc. I have loyally supported Apple and put down graphics pros who tried to do graphics on Windows.
But now all the reasons that originally made it vital for a DTP desiger or prepress person or retoucher to use a Mac, (including color management) have been eliminated. I have a 3ghz Dell workstation and a Dual 1ghz G4 literally side by side on the same desk and I assure you that if I bring up the same scan side by side on both machines in Photoshop that they are virtually identical. The Creative Mac advantage no longer exists. I use Photoshop, Golive, Freehand, Dreamweaver, Flash, Fireworks, Painter, Illustrator, Quark, Indesign, Suitcase and more on both XP and OSX. There is virtually no difference any more.
If the Mac Advantage has been eliminated for creatives, there have to be other things that give me a reason to use my Mac other than a warm fuzzy feeling about the past and how great is was to be one of the chosen few. Speed and efficiency are among these reasons. I have a lot of work to do and I need to do it efficiently. The price difference is not really an issue for me. I will use what gets my work done in the least amount of time
I was very enthusiastic about OSX from the outset and loved the fact that I could finally print and work at the same time. Something that was not possible on OS9. I accepted the rotating pie chart as an evil necessity. I really thought that by 10.1 or 10.2 that would be fixed. Here we are over 2 years later on 10.3 and if I click from one drive to another on my Dual G4,that was bought last July, I still have to wait between 1 and 10 seconds until the list appears. For someone who uses 4 internal hard drives and about 10 externals, this is not an option. I really don't care about Expose or the genie effect. I just want to be able to fly though my drives and find what I need to find and then continue what I was doing.
Why do I suddenly have equipment that worked fine in Jaguar and is now virtually impossible to use in Panter? Again I stress that my G4 is only a year and 4 months old. And my Imacon scanner is not much older. I was able to move from OS 9 to OS X with my scsi drives, and PCI cards and tape drives and scanners. Why can't I do the same from 10.2 to 10.3? It is not a major upgrade!!
So here I am hating that fact that I now have to spend most of my days working on XP. If anyone has a better solution for someone who has millions of files, thousands of fonts and Terrabyes of video please let me know.
And I think it is naive to say that most windows users dream about a Mac. It is not a useful discussion. Again, I have no love at this point for Microsoft or Apple. XP is a very stable and extremely cutomizable OS much to my surprise. And there is a much wider selection of software to choose from.
10.3 is a major revision of OS X, though...a new microkernal, a new version of BSD, etc...It's a pretty drastic change under the hood. As for your hardware not working, have you checked to see if the company has released updated drivers?