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I Hate Panther

revenuee,

Since you metion how nice yer capture is to your system HDD I assume you are capturing DV. SCSI is way overkill for DV. Any 7200RPM ATA HDD made in the past 3 or 4 years is more than fast enough for DV. And if you buy a quality FW enclosure you won't be dropping frames.


snickelfritz,
If you are working w/DV FW/ATA gives ample bandwidth and speed. If you are cutting uncompressed you'll still need to go SCSI for the time being, though.


Lethal
 
bhancock:

I'll probably be smacked for this, but why did you upgrade your machine to Panther before you had the necessary software updates and knew that Panther was safe?

If you're making money with the machine, how can you not plan ahead of time and wait when things aren't ready?

If you look back at Jaguar, printers barely worked at all and many printer drivers had to be re-written. Mac OS 8.5 and 9.0 had various problems with printers and software as well.

It's also no wonder that Windows XP works pretty well for graphics work, as well as a lot of other things. A lot has happened since Windows 3.0 and System 7 arrived in 1991 when Apple had a clear advantage.

The only true advantage I see Apple having is the integration from top to bottom. Since Apple are in control of the hardware, they can make certain that things run more smoothly. By the time 10.3.9 is out, you'll have forgotten how bad the transition was. ;)
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: I Hate Panther

Originally posted by revenuee
i agree ... it's been a hard transition from OS 9 to OS 10 for me... but not enough to make me switch back to MS .... i'de rather use old software then new software on a MS OS
Click to expand...

I found the transition to OS X fairly easy. Coming from the PC world (stopped at 2000).
I find going to OS 9 (& previous) a little difficult. Mostly why learn something dieing (sp?).
 
SCSI overkill

Originally posted by LethalWolfe
SCSI is way overkill for DV. Any 7200RPM ATA HDD made in the past 3 or 4 years is more than fast enough for DV. And if you buy a quality FW enclosure you won't be dropping frames.
Click to expand...

I agree. DV footage requires only 3MBs so almost any modern FireWire drive will do the job. Having said that, if he is capturing MJPEG or uncompressed video with a PCI card, then a fast SCSI drive would be preferable. I guess he needs to specify what system he has before any of us could tell him what the solution is.

Panther's problems have been over-rated by the mainstream computer press. The majority of users did not experience problems with their external drives. Personally, I would wait until a few updates get released before installing OS X.3
 
My reference to FW drives is based on the section of the Final Cut FAQ posted below.
Thanks for the additional info though.

FireWire drives

You can use FireWire hard drives to back up and move broadcast quality QuickTime clips from one editing suite to another. Because they can be "hot-swapped" (ejected and disconnected while the computer and drive are turned on), they are particularly useful for this task.

In some cases FireWire hard drives can be used to capture and edit projects that require low data rate video clips, such as those captured using the DV codec. However, some FireWire hard drives may lack the performance of internal Ultra ATA drives or of internal or external SCSI drives. For this reason, they are not always the best solution for capturing and editing projects.

Some FireWire drives, for example, may not be able to support as many simultaneous real-time audio and video tracks as an internal Ultra ATA drive. You may also only be able to use a limited number of simultaneous real-time audio and video effects.

If you choose to use a FireWire hard drive, make sure it meets these requirements:
The drive is the only device on the FireWire bus.
The drive's speed is at least 7200 RPM.
The drive can sustain minimum data rates appropriate for your video format (3.7 MB/s for DV).
The drive uses a modern, high-performance bridge chip such as the Oxford 911 or 922.
The drive uses its own power supply, and is not powered from the FireWire bus.

Important: Meeting these requirements does not guarantee the effectiveness or reliability of the drive. If a FireWire hard drive causes dropped frames during playback or recording, try moving the media to an Ultra ATA or SCSI drive.
Click to expand...
 
There is NO Use for SCSI anymore. Why not get 2 7200RPM Hard drives in RAID Stripe? If you have a G5, you can get 2 74GB Western Digital Raptors in RAID and that will absolutely caine any SCSI drives and they're cheaper. Read up on disabling startup items and that also gives you a huge speed increase as I have found. I hope you didn't install Panther straigth on top of Jaguar! You ALLWAYS need to erase-and-install!
 
snickelfritz,

Apple is being/has been very conservative when it comes to FCP and FW drives for some reason. 2 years ago I understood, but now w/how much ATA drives and FW enclosures have improved as long as you get a good HDD and a good enclosure w/the oxford 911 or 922 chipset you are golden 99% of the time (the other 1% are just flukes that for whatever reason someone can't get their FW to work right even though everyone else has no issues what so ever).

bradz_id,

I'd like to see you walk into any place that edits uncompressed video and tell them that SCSI is now useless. ;) ATA drives are quickly closing speed gap but they aren't their yet. Plus, it's not just the speed of the drives that makes SCSI superior to ATA.


Lethal
 
I agree with Lethal. SCSI is still definitely the way to go for uncompressed video (plus, SCSI drives also have a higher reliability rate) Try taking on HD uncompressed on ATA drives... you'd really need to have a RAIDed SCSI UW setup to get the sustained throughput needed when working with mulitple streams.
 
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
revenuee,

Since you metion how nice yer capture is to your system HDD I assume you are capturing DV. SCSI is way overkill for DV. Any 7200RPM ATA HDD made in the past 3 or 4 years is more than fast enough for DV. And if you buy a quality FW enclosure you won't be dropping frames.


snickelfritz,
If you are working w/DV FW/ATA gives ample bandwidth and speed. If you are cutting uncompressed you'll still need to go SCSI for the time being, though.


Lethal
Click to expand...


Yes i am working with DV,

and i'm capturing to the LaCie d2 7200 rpm hard drive... it has the oxford 911 chipset everyone kept telling me about, and it still drops frames
 
Originally posted by revenuee
Yes i am working with DV,

and i'm capturing to the LaCie d2 7200 rpm hard drive... it has the oxford 911 chipset everyone kept telling me about, and it still drops frames
Click to expand...

That's really strange. Even the trashiest hard drives shouldn't drop frames. I think your hard drive may be danaged and corupted. I'd talk to LaCie if I was you.
 
Originally posted by revenuee
Yes i am working with DV,

and i'm capturing to the LaCie d2 7200 rpm hard drive... it has the oxford 911 chipset everyone kept telling me about, and it still drops frames
Click to expand...

What happens if you capture footage to your internal drive, then move it to the FW drive? Does it still drop frames or does it playback properly? Is your camera connected thru your FW drive, or is it on it's own FW port? Daisy-chaining the camera thru the FW HDD will almost always degrade performance.

Like I mentioned in my last post, for some reason some people just have problems w/FW drives where as 99% of the people w/the exact same drive have no issues. It's really odd. I've used generic no-names and top qualiy brand names and never dropped a frame.


Lethal
 
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
What happens if you capture footage to your internal drive, then move it to the FW drive? Does it still drop frames or does it playback properly? Is your camera connected thru your FW drive, or is it on it's own FW port? Daisy-chaining the camera thru the FW HDD will almost always degrade performance.

Like I mentioned in my last post, for some reason some people just have problems w/FW drives where as 99% of the people w/the exact same drive have no issues. It's really odd. I've used generic no-names and top qualiy brand names and never dropped a frame.


Lethal
Click to expand...


I don't have it daisy changed

camera is on BUS 1 and Firewire Drive is on BUS 2.

When i move it over to my Firewire Drive and then try to play back, it is fine... it's a work around that i've had to do, but i would rather not have too
 
Originally posted by revenuee
I don't have it daisy changed

camera is on BUS 1 and Firewire Drive is on BUS 2.

When i move it over to my Firewire Drive and then try to play back, it is fine... it's a work around that i've had to do, but i would rather not have too
Click to expand...


Have you looked for help over at the LaCie forums? You situation sounds vaguely familiar, but I can't remember how some people were able to fix the problem. Argh. If it comes to me I'll be sure to PM you.


Lethal
 
Originally posted by LethalWolfe
Have you looked for help over at the LaCie forums? You situation sounds vaguely familiar, but I can't remember how some people were able to fix the problem. Argh. If it comes to me I'll be sure to PM you.


Lethal
Click to expand...

No, i hadn't looked in their forum, didn't realize there was one there

i tried here and i was told my system might just be too slow
 
Re: I Hate Panther

Originally posted by bhancock
What was Apple thinking? No SCSI support.
Click to expand...

That is funny, my Mac at work only has SCSI harddrives and they seem to work fine.

Hard drive corruption. FireWire and USB issues.
Click to expand...

I have use multiple Firewire drives with no problem, I believe there was a problem with some specific controler and that it was fixed in 10.3.1

And the finder is as slow as ever.
Click to expand...

My experence is the exact oppisite. I have tried 10.3 on about 10 macs (G3s and G4s) and they all are faster.

I am a very productive graphics professional and will be spending much more time on XP until Apple gets rid of the Sugar and gives me some real meat.
Click to expand...

I doubt that.
 
Just my opinion...

So far Panther has been pretty good to me aside from the occasional hang up. Of all the things to come/go I must agree that no SCSI support is not cool at all. Not too long ago I was envisioning my new dream setup which included a G5 with 15,000 RPM SCSI drives. Those who say SCSI is "old" are obviously not doing any heavy disk work like music or video. To tout a machine as being the ultimate tool for heavy pro use and then max us out at 7200 RPM and drop the fastest technology out there is just plain silly. Firwire, even 800, just doesn't cut it.
 
Re: Just my opinion...

Originally posted by tjwett
So far Panther has been pretty good to me aside from the occasional hang up. Of all the things to come/go I must agree that no SCSI support is not cool at all. Not too long ago I was envisioning my new dream setup which included a G5 with 15,000 RPM SCSI drives. Those who say SCSI is "old" are obviously not doing any heavy disk work like music or video. To tout a machine as being the ultimate tool for heavy pro use and then max us out at 7200 RPM and drop the fastest technology out there is just plain silly. Firwire, even 800, just doesn't cut it.
Click to expand...
i dont think it really matters if its cool or not, because i havent read anything that says scsi support is gone. apple has scsi scanner support on their page, scsi is in the system profiler, and the guy who posted above you said he is using scsi hard drives without any problems.

iJon
 
I agree, I don't see why the system profiler would list SCSI if Panther did not support it and I've heard of more than a few people getting SCSI hard drives so I doubt it's "not supported". Not even a year ago the top of the line PowerMacs allowed for UltraSCSI as BTO options at the Apple Store, even.
 
Originally posted by Powerbook G5
I agree, I don't see why the system profiler would list SCSI if Panther did not support it and I've heard of more than a few people getting SCSI hard drives so I doubt it's "not supported". Not even a year ago the top of the line PowerMacs allowed for UltraSCSI as BTO options at the Apple Store, even.
Click to expand...

Perhaps our "Productive Graphics Professional" has a third party SCSI interface card... The drives maybe fine.... but the firmware on the SCSI card needs to be upgraded... unfortunately not all manufacturers offer this yet for certain cards... - that was the problem for me after all under OS 10.2.
 
So then it's not that Panther doesn't support SCSI, it's that his SCSI card doesn't have an updated driver. I can't believe that is the fault of Apple, though. Worst case scenario is that he'll have to wait a little while until the company releases an updated driver to work with Panther. If not, then perhaps a newer SCSI card is in order.
 
Re: Just my opinion...

Originally posted by tjwett
So far Panther has been pretty good to me aside from the occasional hang up. Of all the things to come/go I must agree that no SCSI support is not cool at all. Not too long ago I was envisioning my new dream setup which included a G5 with 15,000 RPM SCSI drives. Those who say SCSI is "old" are obviously not doing any heavy disk work like music or video. To tout a machine as being the ultimate tool for heavy pro use and then max us out at 7200 RPM and drop the fastest technology out there is just plain silly. Firwire, even 800, just doesn't cut it.
Click to expand...


This is borderline nitpicking, but FW supplies enough bandwidth but the 7200RPM ATA drives on the other end of the cable just aren't fast enough to handle it. AJA's Io allows you to import/export uncompressed, 10-bit video over a single FW400 connection.


Lethal
 
Apple replaced SCSI with the Fibre Channel Card in the BTO options, Apple didn't kill it just replaced a BTO option with another one.

I wonder if the "Productive Graphics Professional" thinks the Apple Fibre Channel RAID is good enough to replace a SCSI RAID.
 
Originally posted by Sun Baked
Apple replaced SCSI with the Fibre Channel Card in the BTO options, Apple didn't kill it just replaced a BTO option with another one.

I wonder if the "Productive Graphics Professional" thinks the Apple Fibre Channel RAID is good enough to replace a SCSI RAID.
Click to expand...

i'm glad the the use of quotation marks caught on :D :p MAD PROPS Sun Baked

(NOTE: i don't acctually know what MAD PROPS means, my friends use it and this seemed like a good time as any to say it)

"Productive Graphics Professional"?

if he was so productive he wouldn't have time coming to post on here ... LOL

at least not for the sake of bashing on panther .... a REAL graphics professional would come on here and ask the "community" for help on how to get his SCSI equipment to working... Or like notkevin be the one helping out ... or LethalWolfe who was more then willing to offer me some advice on my FW drives

ps... has anybody noticed that bhancock aka "Productive Graphics Professional" hasn't been back?

should we call troll on this one and call it a day?
 
Re: Re: Just my opinion...

Originally posted by iJon
i dont think it really matters if its cool or not, because i havent read anything that says scsi support is gone. apple has scsi scanner support on their page, scsi is in the system profiler, and the guy who posted above you said he is using scsi hard drives without any problems.

iJon
Click to expand...

well there we are then. i've heard only from word of mouth that "there's no more SCSI" but after looking into it you're all totally right. it's just these dudes i talk to who are just now creating a little test partition on their spare HD to try out "OS Ex" are confused. it's no doubt their cards/drivers/firmware that need updating. if only all my fellow musicians and video guys would have started moving to OS X (TEN! it's called OS Ten dammit, not "Ex"!) a long time ago with the rest of us...:(
 
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