I have returned my M1 Mac mini and here is why

[circatee]

Sounds like you got caught up in the forum M1 fever.

Hmm, possibly. Part of my plan was to learn Mac OS, and then switch to it, over my Windows PC. Then, mainly use my Windows PC for gaming.

However, the more I think about it, why have/use two computers, just because.
Maybe feeling a little guilty with things happening in the World, too. Alas, I digress...

 

[MNLondon]

I had an M1 Mac mini, and had to return it just after Christmas because I could not get help from Apple support, for an issue which caused the mini to be barely functional. I was upset because I had invested a lot of time in transferring all my data on to it and I had to go back to my 2009 Mac Pro, which couldn't run the same versions of Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro, and so I had to start again with a number of projects.

Apple support was not able to help me at the time because they admitted to not being trained sufficiently on the new M1 system, as it was quite different to the Intel versions.

I am a big fan of Apple, and I hope they can build stronger customer service on the back of my own experiences.

As for the initial comment in this section, I understand the person's concerns. I am not so tech savvy, but I wish there were a way to support older versions of Pro software for as long as it lasts, rather than make machines and software versions 'obsolete' .

 

[Andrea Filippini]

One of my suppliers sells renewed (like new) Mac Mini M1 with 8 GB RAM and 256 GB SSD for 599 €.
The price is literally dropped compared to others Mac Mini with Intel processor and it's about the same price for my Mac Mini late 2012.
The depreciation is absurd for a machine with neither a year.
I have read several discussions in this forum and I have watched several reviews around the web about this new Mac Mini M1 and in my opinion it's not worth it.
Connectivity issues, soldered memory and storage, high data written on storage (potential lifespan is controversial), troubles with third party apps...
Some issues will be fixed with OS updates like previous machines but the hardware longevity is dramatically limited by Apple policy.
You literally have to pay the Apple tax for upgrade memory and storage.
The only positive thing is that the basic version of the machine is more affordable than ever before.
Basically it's like a smartphone now: ready to use but not long lasting.
Sincerely I don't know if this machine can last for a decade like previous Apple devices.
I'm an Apple lover so I hope in a strong policy change.

 

[pmiles]

Well, there’s still that elephant in the room in the form of the 2019 Mac Pro. For the money some people paid for it, I expect Apple to support it all the way till 2030 at least.

Hehe... Apple discontinued the iMac Pro in relatively short order. Any computer can be shelved at any given time. All Apple is required to do is support a device for 5 years with repair parts after it's discontinued. That's their only legal requirement... unless they go bankrupt.

That being said... every EOL'd device Apple has ever made can run as long as it is capable of functioning. As to the length of time it is capable of running software newer than that which was available when the device was sold is another thing. That is not "support"... that is a happy accident.

You may wish to believe that the more money you spend entitles you to more... but the reality is, all legal requirements are met when AppleCare ends.

People really need to stop looking at computer purchases as an "investment"... it's an appliance. It has no more resale value than someone is willing to pay for it. That being said, someone will pay millions for a pile of computer chips once used in a garage by Step Jobs...

 

[ADGrant]

Second: we all know ARM is different with x86. Apple is never been known as open in terms of their hardware design. I am not sure that alternative operating system will be available. With Intel Mac, I can run Windows, Linux. I am planning to migrate to Linux on my 2011 Mac mini when Apple no longer support Catalina. The ability to run alternative operating system is very important to me. I am sure it is important for lots of people. So when Apple decided to pull the plug for your expensive machine, you have most updated alternative OS to run.

I am sure Apple silicon based Mac will be fantastic and powerful. But to me, it is still too early for me to know everything. We don't know how long will Apple support ARM based Macs, we don't know if Apple would decided disallow unsigned version of macOS , we don't know if there are alternative OS will available in the future.

Therefore, I have decided to Apple silicon based Mac in mind, but in the meantime, I will use my Intel Mac and pocket the money for now.

You are aware that your 2018 Mac mini also has Apple Silicon inside right? The T2 chip is a 64bit ARM co-processor (based on the A10 from the iPhone 7) which includes among other things a secure boot loader that prevents you booting unsigned operating systems. Currently only MacOS and Windows 10 via Bootcamp are supported.

It is true that we don't know how long Apple will support ARM Macs but we do know it will be much longer than they support Intel Macs.

 

[Aoligei]

You are aware that your 2018 Mac mini also has Apple Silicon inside right? The T2 chip is a 64bit ARM co-processor (based on the A10 from the iPhone 7) which includes among other things a secure boot loader that prevents you booting unsigned operating systems. Currently only MacOS and Windows 10 via Bootcamp are supported.

It is true that we don't know how long Apple will support ARM Macs but we do know it will be much longer than they support Intel Macs.

yes. You can disable secure boot entity. This is what I did

 

[ADGrant]

yes. You can disable secure boot entity. This is what I did

Were you able to boot from internal media?

 

[Aoligei]

Were you able to boot from internal media?

No. I was booting with External USB-C NVME drive.

This is unfortunate part of living with Apple’s Mac. They really make it hard to install alternative OS.

When PC world make this kind of restriction, people will push back. Unfortunately, Apple can get away from this, because I guess people aren’t give a dime.

Anyway, I have 5 PC at home, I can install Windows.

ARM Mac really makes me think twice about Mac.

 

[ADGrant]

No. I was booting with External USB-C NVME drive.

This is unfortunate part of living with Apple’s Mac. They really make it hard to install alternative OS.

When PC world make this kind of restriction, people will push back. Unfortunately, Apple can get away from this, because I guess people aren’t give a dime.

Anyway, I have 5 PC at home, I can install Windows.

ARM Mac really makes me think twice about Mac.

I believe there are no restrictions with the earlier Intel Macs (those without the T2 ARM co-processor). The T2 Macs were in some ways a pre-cursor to the M1 Macs.

 

[Aoligei]

I believe there are no restrictions with the earlier Intel Macs (those without the T2 ARM co-processor). The T2 Macs were in some ways a pre-cursor to the M1 Macs.

Yes. There were no restriction pre-T2 Mac.

But for Windows, drivers are problem. Yes, you could use Bootcamp drivers, but I believe Apple don’t always update drivers for Windows.

It is especially true for AMD graphic drivers.

Anyway, I am not to found on Apple Silicon Macs. I will see how things will go few years down the road. But for now, I am staying away from M1 Macs

 

[ADGrant]

Yes. There were no restriction pre-T2 Mac.

But for Windows, drivers are problem. Yes, you could use Bootcamp drivers, but I believe Apple don’t always update drivers for Windows.

It is especially true for AMD graphic drivers.

Anyway, I am not to found on Apple Silicon Macs. I will see how things will go few years down the road. But for now, I am staying away from M1 Macs

I think a few years down the road, Linux on ARM & Docker on ARM will be common, AWS already has their own ARM based servers, Azure and GCP will follow. ARM based Macs will be very useful for targeting these platforms.

For Windows I am not so sure. Microsoft seems to have struggled for years with Windows on ARM.

 

[cwerdna]

I have read several discussions in this forum and I have watched several reviews around the web about this new Mac Mini M1 and in my opinion it's not worth it.
Connectivity issues, soldered memory and storage, high data written on storage (potential lifespan is controversial), troubles with third party apps...
Some issues will be fixed with OS updates like previous machines but the hardware longevity is dramatically limited by Apple policy.
You literally have to pay the Apple tax for upgrade memory and storage.

I also hate the Apple tax and absurd markups + non-upgradable RAM and storage but this is the way it's been on Apple's laptops (even Intel) for several years now.

I recently did buy an M1 Mac (16 gigs of RAM and 256 gigs of storage) via a friend at Apple via their friends & family program. Been using it a lot since 3/26. It's not my primary machine so 256 gigs of storage is fine. I have no connectivity problems and no probs yet w/3rd-party apps but it's not like I'm running much beyond a bunch of web browsers (including Tor Browser that's Intel only right now), Thinkorswim desktop client (also Intel) and Google Earth Pro (Intel).

I use a wired keyboard, wired mouse + wireless mouse w/USB dongle and wired Ethernet.

Machine works fine and is very fast and quiet running two monitors. The second monitor is attached via https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15758. I can't ever hear the fan but can feel a tiny bit of airflow out the back. I have the unit hooked up to a Kill-A-Watt and when idling, it tends to only pull 7 to 8 watts.

In comparison, my work issued MBP 15" 2017 vintage gets hot and fan noise is quite audible, esp when an external display is attached. I use that all day long every day I'm doing my day job (most weekdays).

I assert that Apple will support M1 Macs as long as (likely longer) than any Intel Mac that came out prior to M1 Macs.

 

[Andrea Filippini]

I also hate the Apple tax and absurd markups + non-upgradable RAM and storage but this is the way it's been on Apple's laptops (even Intel) for several years now.

I recently did buy an M1 Mac (16 gigs of RAM and 256 gigs of storage) via a friend at Apple via their friends & family program. Been using it a lot since 3/26. It's not my primary machine so 256 gigs of storage is fine. I have no connectivity problems and no probs yet w/3rd-party apps but it's not like I'm running much beyond a bunch of web browsers (including Tor Browser that's Intel only right now), Thinkorswim desktop client (also Intel) and Google Earth Pro (Intel).

I use a wired keyboard, wired mouse + wireless mouse w/USB dongle and wired Ethernet.

Machine works fine and is very fast and quiet running two monitors. The second monitor is attached via https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15758. I can't ever hear the fan but can feel a tiny bit of airflow out the back. I have the unit hooked up to a Kill-A-Watt and when idling, it tends to only pull 7 to 8 watts.

In comparison, my work issued MBP 15" 2017 vintage gets hot and fan noise is quite audible, esp when an external display is attached. I use that all day long every day I'm doing my day job (most weekdays).

I assert that Apple will support M1 Macs as long as (likely longer) than any Intel Mac that came out prior to M1 Macs.

It's obviously a great and powerful machine and the majority of issues will be fixed with OS/third party updates but sincerely I don't know if this machine can last for a decade like previous Apple devices.
You have purchased the 16 GB version so surely you won't have bottlenecks in future but the soldered storage is a strong limitation to its lifespan.
The useful life of the 256 GB SSD storage is estimated about 150 TBW.
A light usage seems fine but if you will start in the future to use torrent apps, Photoshop, Premiere and/or Final Cut its lifespan will be exhausted within 2 years.
Nowadays a 256 GB soldered storage proposed by a giant tech company like Apple it's simply not admissible.

P.S. Happy Easter! 🙋‍♂️🕊️🐰🐣

 

[cwerdna]

You have purchased the 16 GB version so surely you won't have bottlenecks in future but the soldered storage is a strong limitation to its lifespan.
The useful life of the 256 GB SSD storage is estimated about 150 TBW.
A light usage seems fine but if you will start in the future to use torrent apps, Photoshop, Premiere and/or Final Cut its lifespan will be exhausted within 2 years.
Nowadays a 256 GB soldered storage proposed by a giant tech company like Apple it's simply not admissible.

As for soldered and non-upgradable RAM and SSD, I hate it but as I said, Apple's been doing it for years on their laptops.

As for how many TBW it can survive, who knows? It will mainly depend on which type of flash it is (e.g. SLC, MLC, TLC or QLC)) coupled w/the size of the drive. SLC is highly unlikely. MLC maybe. TLC or QLC, maybe but I tend to doubt QLC.

I don't use any of what you listed.

FWIW, the 160 gig Intel X25-M G2 (was MLC) that I got in 2010 for my former main machine (an i7-860) which was my boot and programs drive never wore out and wasn't even close to worn per Intel's utilities. I pretty much stopped using that computer in 2018 when I put together another PC.

 

[Andrea Filippini]

As for soldered and non-upgradable RAM and SSD, I hate it but as I said, Apple's been doing it for years on their laptops.

As for how many TBW it can survive, who knows? It will mainly depend on which type of flash it is (e.g. SLC, MLC, TLC or QLC)) coupled w/the size of the drive. SLC is highly unlikely. MLC maybe. TLC or QLC, maybe but I tend to doubt QLC.

I don't use any of what you listed.

FWIW, the 160 gig Intel X25-M G2 (was MLC) that I got in 2010 for my former main machine (an i7-860) which was my boot and programs drive never wore out and wasn't even close to worn per Intel's utilities. I pretty much stopped using that computer in 2018 when I put together another PC.

Soldered memory and storage it's the main reason why I have never bought an Apple laptop (considering also screen and battery residual life).
Flash type is probably MLC, so it's good.
As you can see, my main concern is the lifespan of machine. If the storage will become exhausted, I will not able to change it and I will not able to sell the machine to others because now it's literally unusable and basically I have burned the money.

 

[HDFan]

The useful life of the 256 GB SSD storage is estimated about 150 TBW.

Where did you get that number? Apple normally uses high quality components. My iMac SSD has written ~368 TB and still has 97% of lifetime capacity.

 

[Andrea Filippini]

Where did you get that number? Apple normally uses high quality components. My iMac SSD has written ~368 TB and still has 97% of lifetime capacity.

Apple key supplier for storage is Samsung.
What is the size of your SSD?

 

[cwerdna]

Apple key supplier for storage is Samsung.

Apple has been moving away from Samsung for components for years.

I don't have a teardown of the M1 Mac Mini handy but for https://www.ifixit.com/News/46884/m1-macbook-teardowns-something-old-something-new, they found "(Western Digital/SanDisk?) SDRGJHI4 – 128GB Flash storage (x2)".

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Mac+mini+Late+2018+Teardown/115210 had Toshiba for flash storage. https://www.ifixit.com/News/43287/apples-last-dance-with-intel-imac-27-2020-teardown-with-x-rays does too.

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhone+12+and+12+Pro+Teardown/137669 has flash from Kioxia, apparently a Toshiba spinoff.

My main PC that I put together in early 2018 w/i7-8700 and a Samsung 960 EVO SSD 500 gig (uses TLC) as the boot and programs drive per specs at https://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/minisite/ssd/product/consumer/960evo/ has a warranty of 3 years or 100 TBW for 250 gig, 200 TBW for 500 gig and 400 TBW for 1000 gig.

Samsung Disk Magician says that I've written 15.1 TB to it.

 

[Andrea Filippini]

Apple has been moving away from Samsung for components for years.

I don't have a teardown of the M1 Mac Mini handy but for https://www.ifixit.com/News/46884/m1-macbook-teardowns-something-old-something-new, they found "(Western Digital/SanDisk?) SDRGJHI4 – 128GB Flash storage (x2)".

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Mac+mini+Late+2018+Teardown/115210 had Toshiba for flash storage. https://www.ifixit.com/News/43287/apples-last-dance-with-intel-imac-27-2020-teardown-with-x-rays does too.

https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/iPhone+12+and+12+Pro+Teardown/137669 has flash from Kioxia, apparently a Toshiba spinoff.

My main PC that I put together in early 2018 w/i7-8700 and a Samsung 960 EVO SSD 500 gig (uses TLC) as the boot and programs drive per specs at https://www.samsung.com/semiconductor/minisite/ssd/product/consumer/960evo/ has a warranty of 3 years or 100 TBW for 250 gig, 200 TBW for 500 gig and 400 TBW for 1000 gig.

Samsung Disk Magician says that I've written 15.1 TB to it.

For fiscal year 2018, Samsung has figured in Apple Supplier List, and probably also for this year.

Crucial for its model MX500 250 GB (TLC memory) estimates 100 TBW.
The majority of suppliers, however, estimate 150 TBW for a SSD storage with 256 GB.

 

[cwerdna]

Re: Samsung, sure but if you look at iFixit teardown of older Apple devices, Samsung tended to be a lot more common for screens, flash memory and IIRC, DRAM than it is for them now.

Apple does seem to mix it up so even if they tore down one with say Toshiba, it's possible that another identical model even w/the same identifier (https://everyi.com/by-identifier/ipod-iphone-ipad-specs-by-model-identifier.html) might have different suppliers for the above components.

 

[yellowhelicopter]

A light usage seems fine but if you will start in the future to use torrent apps, Photoshop, Premiere and/or Final Cut its lifespan will be exhausted within 2 years.

Well, you always can use bootable external storage to prevent degradation of the internal one.

 

[Andrea Filippini]

Re: Samsung, sure but if you look at iFixit teardown of older Apple devices, Samsung tended to be a lot more common for screens, flash memory and IIRC, DRAM than it is for them now.

Apple does seem to mix it up so even if they tore down one with say Toshiba, it's possible that another identical model even w/the same identifier (https://everyi.com/by-identifier/ipod-iphone-ipad-specs-by-model-identifier.html) might have different suppliers for the above components.

Yeah, but also several Toshiba storage (A100, Q300, Q300 PRO, RC500, TR200, RC100, RD400) have 60 TBW to 160 TBW for the 240-256 GB version.
I don't think that soldered 256 GB Apple storage goes over 150 TBW.

Well, you always can use bootable external storage to prevent degradation of the internal one.

Yeah, it's a good choice.

 

[HDFan]

Apple key supplier for storage is Samsung.
What is the size of your SSD?

4 TB (iMac Pro).

Samsung SSD's range from 35 TBW to 4800. Their 4TB SSD is rated at 4800 TBW. Apple must be using a higher quality part, or doing something else because I calculate the TBW to be ~ 12. Assume on the M1 they are using the better parts, although TBW drops significantly with the smaller size.

SSD Product Warranty | Support | Samsung Semiconductor Global

Samsung ensures the best quality in all products and services beyond customer expectations. Warranty policy, conditions for Internal and Portable SSD.

www.samsung.com

Your actual numbers can be found using a utility such as DriveDx.

 

[Andrea Filippini]

4 TB (iMac Pro).

Samsung SSD's range from 35 TBW to 4800. Their 4TB SSD is rated at 4800 TBW. Apple must be using a higher quality part, or doing something else because I calculate the TBW to be ~ 12. Assume on the M1 they are using the better parts, although TBW drops significantly with the smaller size.

SSD Product Warranty | Support | Samsung Semiconductor Global

Samsung ensures the best quality in all products and services beyond customer expectations. Warranty policy, conditions for Internal and Portable SSD.

www.samsung.com

Your actual numbers can be found using a utility such as DriveDx.

The Pro version of Samsung SSD SATA storage has double TBW (1 TB has 1200 TBW).
The Pro version of Samsung SSD NVMe PCIe storage has the same TBW (1 TB has 600 TBW).
Check one of the latest model like Samsung NVMe SSD 980 PRO

https://s3.ap-northeast-2.amazonaws.com/global.semi.static/Samsung_NVMe_SSD_980_PRO_Data_Sheet_Rev.1.2.pdf

 

[Hessel89]

One of my suppliers sells renewed (like new) Mac Mini M1 with 8 GB RAM and 256 GB SSD for 599 €.

That's crazy. I'm from the EU too. Can you tell me what supplier this is?