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I still miss scrollbar arrows

xmichaelp

macrumors 68000
Jul 10, 2012
1,815
626
...Said no one ever.

Just kidding, but seriously though. Scrolling with a trackpad is a million times better. It's so smooth and intuitive. Having to click and press on a scrollbar reminds me of having to use my dad's crappy windows laptop. Ugh.
 
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Small White Car

macrumors G4
Aug 29, 2006
10,926
1,236
Washington DC
I use a logitech mouse with no touch-sensitive parts whatsoever. I have to leave scroll bars turned on for many reasons.

And even I can't figure out why or when I'd ever need those arrows back.
 
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MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,178
1,418
...Said no one ever.

Just kidding, but seriously though. Scrolling with a trackpad is a million times better. It's so smooth and intuitive. Having to click and press on a scrollbar reminds me of having to use my dad's crappy windows laptop. Ugh.

Yeah, but trackpads just plain SUCK period. Try gaming on a trackpad. It's horrible. Try quickly clicking on something. Not happening. Fortunately, the scroll wheel on teh vastly superior mouse makes scrolling just as simple as a trackpad without all the awful finger movements and hard surfaces that get tiring over time. Trackpads are a necessary evil for notebooks, but I can't imagine using one at a desktop workstation for long periods of time. I'd go insane.
 
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Liam555

macrumors regular
Jul 14, 2014
120
22
I use a logitech mouse with no touch-sensitive parts whatsoever. I have to leave scroll bars turned on for many reasons.

And even I can't figure out why or when I'd ever need those arrows back.

Wait, don't you have scroll on your mouse? I use a logitech MX everywhere mouse with no touch sensitivity, just I can still scroll down with the mouse?
 
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Small White Car

macrumors G4
Aug 29, 2006
10,926
1,236
Washington DC
Wait, don't you have scroll on your mouse? I use a logitech MX everywhere mouse with no touch sensitivity, just I can still scroll down with the mouse?

It has a scroll wheel. By touch sensitivity I meant a part that could detect movement without physical movement, like a trackpad or magic mouse can.

My point was that even with the simplest of mouse (which I consider a scroll-wheel to be), the scroll arrows are still unneeded.
 
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xmichaelp

macrumors 68000
Jul 10, 2012
1,815
626
Yeah, but trackpads just plain SUCK period. Try gaming on a trackpad. It's horrible. Try quickly clicking on something. Not happening. Fortunately, the scroll wheel on teh vastly superior mouse makes scrolling just as simple as a trackpad without all the awful finger movements and hard surfaces that get tiring over time. Trackpads are a necessary evil for notebooks, but I can't imagine using one at a desktop workstation for long periods of time. I'd go insane.

No they're not, Apple's trackpads are amazing and better than a mouse when you take into account all the gestures. What does scrollbars have to do with gaming?

Even if you don't want a trackpad just get a Magic Mouse and you can still scroll nicely. Scrollbars are deprecated.
 
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bbeagle

macrumors 68040
Oct 19, 2010
3,419
2,684
Buffalo, NY
Yeah, but trackpads just plain SUCK period. Try gaming on a trackpad. It's horrible. Try quickly clicking on something. Not happening. Fortunately, the scroll wheel on teh vastly superior mouse makes scrolling just as simple as a trackpad without all the awful finger movements and hard surfaces that get tiring over time. Trackpads are a necessary evil for notebooks, but I can't imagine using one at a desktop workstation for long periods of time. I'd go insane.

I use BOTH. I have a trackpad to the left of my keyboard, and a mouse to the right.

I can't imagine going back to just using a mouse.

Scrolling is so easy now. I get to anything I want to scroll, use my left hand with 2 fingers to scroll up and down. I can swipe out screens with 3 fingers, swipe up to change screens and find all my running programs. And I use a mouse for pointing, clicking and dragging.
 
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MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,178
1,418
No they're not, Apple's trackpads are amazing and better than a mouse when you take into account all the gestures.

They're better than some other trackpads for movement, although I have never liked the fact they don't provide two buttons. Hell, the new ones don't provide even ONE button. They have that hard glass surface which is not comfortable to use for any period of time if you want to rest your hand. Gestures give the illusion of being fast/handy, but they're also likely to do things you don't want them to do sometimes the more complicated they get. My iPod Touch often misinterprets two-button touches and swipes when I don't want them to do that. So what's GOOD about trackpads. NOTHING.

What does scrollbars have to do with gaming?

Let me see if I can slow down and spell it out. Someone mentioned that trackpad arrows aren't needed since it's so easy to scroll with a trackpad. My point is if you don't have/use a trackpad and instead use a mouse the point about arrows they made is invalid. Your bit about gaming...well I don't know what you cannot comprehend. My point is that a trackpad is worthless for various computer activities like gaming (plus everything I just mentioned above) and thus I don't like them as I want one pointing device to do everything. Thus 1+1+1 = 3. :eek:

Even if you don't want a trackpad just get a Magic Mouse and you can still scroll nicely. Scrollbars are deprecated.

A Magic Mouse is not a gaming friendly mouse and thus I don't want one. Trackpads are only good for gestures and without gestures, they're HORRIBLE thus gestures give the ILLUSION that trackpads don't suck, but some of us know better. Now Apple could allow gestures with the push of a middle mouse button or something with a mouse and then there's zero advantages to a trackpad. I honestly don't know why some people like trackpads. They've been around since the '90s and they're horrible. Apple's are simply a bit less horrible than others (minus the lack of dedicated buttons these days. Pushing down on the trackpad itself particularly with multiple pressure points is going to lead to more errors. The only reason they're used in large quantities is that's it's a PITA to carry around a mouse with a notebook and notebooks are mega-popular and hence their high rates of use along with touch-screens on tablets/phones. They were never popular at home on desktops as mice are vastly superior devices.

It has a scroll wheel. By touch sensitivity I meant a part that could detect movement without physical movement, like a trackpad or magic mouse can.

My point was that even with the simplest of mouse (which I consider a scroll-wheel to be), the scroll arrows are still unneeded.

I don't care about the scroll arrows, although on lousy trackpads they're helpful as they are more precise than badly working gestures (e.g. my old hackintosh netbook that runs Snow Leopard and thus still has arrows and can't be upgraded to anything beyond Snow Leopard).

I think the point is that if some people WANT them, there's no reason Apple couldn't offer a preference pane for them other than the fact that Apple likes to be jerks about personal preferences and have been since Jobs return back in the late '90s. I always assume it was just Jobs ego so now I assume it's Johnny Ive's ego that prevents more preference pane selections.
 
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grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
643
What makes you think that? ...

Some of the discussion here, and elsewhere; and without the OS, I couldn't test for myself. As Apple did some ridiculous things with OS X 10.10, so I'm prepared to read and/or ask about ridiculous things with 10.11 :)
 
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bbeagle

macrumors 68040
Oct 19, 2010
3,419
2,684
Buffalo, NY
I think the point is that if some people WANT them, there's no reason Apple couldn't offer a preference pane for them other than the fact that Apple likes to be jerks about personal preferences and have been since Jobs return back in the late '90s. I always assume it was just Jobs ego so now I assume it's Johnny Ive's ego that prevents more preference pane selections.

Leaving an option to show the arrow keys is more code to support, and costs people and money.

As a software developer myself, I understand the reasons. The more code you get rid of, the less options you provide, the simpler the code base, the less prone to errors it is, and the easier to release software in the future. It's not some personal ego thing - it really matters.
 
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grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
643
Leaving an option to show the arrow keys

Ah. I may have misread the earlier conversation. Has the option disappeared and if so, when?

From the glossary of an old Inside Macintosh document:

scroll arrow An arrow at either end of a scroll bar. When the user clicks a scroll arrow, the application moves a document or list by one unit of measure in the direction of the arrow. When the user holds the mouse button down while the cursor is over a scroll arrow, the application moves the document or list continuously in the direction of the arrow.

I don't have a usable Mac with me but I'm almost certain that I use scroll arrows frequently in Mavericks. With both arrows at one end.
 
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redheeler

macrumors 604
Oct 17, 2014
7,663
7,518
Ah. I may have misread the earlier conversation. Has the option disappeared and if so, when?

I don't have a usable Mac with me but I'm almost certain that I use scrollbar arrows frequently in Mavericks.

From the glossary of an Inside Macintosh document:
The scrollbar arrows were removed in Lion. When I talk about the iOS-ification of OS X, I almost certainly have the Lion and later scrollbars in mind.

In this screenshot from my iBook G4, the two arrows can clearly be seen at the bottom of the pre-Lion Aqua scrollbar.
Picture 4.png
 
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grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
643
... with the simplest of mouse (which I consider a scroll-wheel to be), the scroll arrows are still unneeded.

Right now I'm using a Logitech trackball (810-000767) alongside a macalley ikey with an Ergo Vista 631 running PC-BSD. The trackpad of the ergo has a vertical scroller alongside its right-hand edge but to use that I must raise my hand, move it more than twelve inches to the left, move it away from me, look away from the screen to check that the index finger of my right hand is appropriately positioned above the scroller before scrolling.

I prefer to use the trackball with the scroll bar and scroll arrows.

Later today I'll regain normal use of a MacBookPro5,2 with a Magic Mouse.
 
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grahamperrin

macrumors 601
Jun 8, 2007
4,942
643
The scrollbar arrows were removed in Lion. ...

Hidden by default, not removed. (I have used scroll arrows often enough, since upgrading from Snow Leopard, to be certain that they can be shown ;)

Thanks for the screen shot and all.
 
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redheeler

macrumors 604
Oct 17, 2014
7,663
7,518
Hidden by default, not removed. (I have used scroll arrows often enough, since upgrading from Snow Leopard, to be certain that they can be shown ;)

Thanks for the screen shot and all.
The scrollbars themselves can be shown, but the arrows at the bottom like shown in my screenshot above are still gone from them ;)
 
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MagnusVonMagnum

macrumors 603
Jun 18, 2007
5,178
1,418
Leaving an option to show the arrow keys is more code to support, and costs people and money.

As a software developer myself, I understand the reasons. The more code you get rid of, the less options you provide, the simpler the code base, the less prone to errors it is, and the easier to release software in the future. It's not some personal ego thing - it really matters.

I'm sorry, but that's a complete and utter load of horse manure you're trying to sell me as fertilizer for a concrete driveway. We're talking about two arrow buttons here that have been there forever, not maintaining Carbon compatibility forever (and from a company that can afford to buy its own series of islands). :rolleyes:

If volunteer theme makers for Firefox can afford to maintain gadgets through all the crap the Mozilla team has put them through, I think Apple could bother with a few preference pane options to move up their ratings (which are getting pretty terrible for Yosemite in the reviews and I don't just mean the arrows). Frankly, a slider for transparency of the dock would work wonders as well. It's been hideous since Mavericks with many backgrounds.
 
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KALLT

macrumors 603
Sep 23, 2008
5,173
3,218
My point was that even with the simplest of mouse (which I consider a scroll-wheel to be), the scroll arrows are still unneeded.

Indeed.

Some other options:
  • Use the arrow keys on your keyboard to get the same behaviour.
  • Set the scroll bar behaviour to 'Jump to next page' (system preferences > general) to make the distance shorter when clicking on a random spot on the scroll bar (it's like the arrow feature, only cruder).
  • Use a third-party tool that provides additional scrolling options, like Smart Scroll which features hover-scrolling, grab-scrolling and vector-scrolling (like in Firefox).
There are ample possibilities. I wouldn't wait until Apple reintroduces the arrows. They're gone, likely for good.
 
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