I visited the Apple Store today and tried out the new MacBook Pro keyboards...

[dmccloud]

I think you still confuse objectivity with your opinion.

For me for example more travel is not better. In fact I just recently tried a couple of (mechanical) gaming keyboards to see whats the fuzz about them. And I hated every single one of them. I just don't understand why you would like to have more travel than needed. For me less travel is always better as long as there is a defined pressure point. More travel means you need more time per key pressure. So for me Apples current keyboards on MacBook Air, MacBook Pro and Magic Keyboard are the best in their respective class I ever had. And yes, I had probably every MacBook Pro and Apple Desktop keyboard since 2006. I even liked the butterfly keyboard but their problem was that they were prone to dust and their pressure point got worse over time.

So please remember: You are talking about you, not everyone. Only because travel is important for you doesn't mean it is for everyone!

With mechanical keyboards, there are literally dozens of variables that can affect the user experience. Key travel, actuation force, silent vs. tactile vs. clicky, etc. Personally, I prefer a quieter, "faster" mechanical keyboard with switches that have less travel and require less activation force because speed can often make a world of difference in the gaming realm. I also don't want my computer keyboard to sound like the typewriters my grandmother used back in the day, but that's my personal preference. I have friends who prefer the exact opposite of my preferences when it comes to mechanical keyboards, and that's fine. There's a reason gaming keyboards, keyboard switches, etc. has become such a big sub-industry on the PC side, and it's because everyone has their own preferences rather than some sort of "universally accepted" standard.

 

[Apple Knowledge Navigator]

Having used Mac's since 1998 (not that I'm claiming my memory is in HD), I believe the current MacBook Pro keyboard is the best they've released - though the trick is to get used to having light touches.

The keyboard of the white polycarbonate/early unibody era comes a close second.

The butterfly keyboard was atrocious and hurt my fingers after long typing sessions.

 

[dmccloud]

I'm fascinated that so many people seem to have ONE keyboard they feel is just right for them and don't want to deviate from it.

Is there anyone here who likes a whole range of keyboards?

I use different keyboards depending on which machine I'm using. With my Windows PC, I use an EVGA keyboard using silent speed switches with low key travel. I also have a Logitech MX Keys for Mac that I use with both my iPad Pro and iPhone, which has a completely different feel from either the EVGA keyboard or the MBP keyboard. I'll probably also use the MX Keys with this MBP when I'm using it in a docked mode, but when out and about the built-in keyboard works just fine for my needs.

 

[turbineseaplane]

Is there anyone here who likes a whole range of keyboards?

I like a range of Apple keyboards, but they tend to all be older ones with more travel and feel to them.

I tend to type and "think through my fingers" and I struggle when the travel gets too low and everything is registering too easily.

I also love a touch of bounce to the whole thing. Not a lot, but just enough to give a bit of rebound when I'm really flying along and text is flowing out through my fingers.

 

[teknikal90]

You're right. The older Unibody keyboard had even more travel, which I know from personal experience. However, if I was to replace my Retina MacBook Pro, it would be with a similar model since it weighs an entire pound less than the older unibody MacBook Pro. It's remarkable how keyboards have consistently gotten worse. The Retina had the last good one.

I personally like the stable and shallow 2019 butterfly keyboard. YMMV.

 

[257Loner]

Apple totally lost their way since Macintosh Portable IMHO.

You think you're funny, but Apple has increasingly shown disdain for ergonomics with their hardware. First, it was the mice. Ever since the iMac G3's puck mouse, Apple mice have received many poor reviews. And this is not a subjective matter. Their mice aren't ergonomic because they don't fit in the palm of your hand. Anyone's hands! The hands of the human beings who use Apple mice!

Keyboards are easily reviewed based on their ergonomics. However, while Apple has historically had unergonomic mice (the 2000 Pro and 2005 Mighty mice were merely "fine"), Apple keyboards have only become decreasingly ergonomic. The super short travel of their keys is as stiff as typing on concrete. Defending typing on concrete is like defending sitting on concrete furniture. Some people might enjoy it, like this guy:

 

[stevemiller]

this is all so subjective. i've always preferred more laptop style keyboards. whenever i have to use a full desktop keyboard (including ones belonging to people who are obsessed with keyboards - so not cheap garbage ones) i can't believe how uncomfortable i find them.

to which i'm sure some would say "well you just need to get used to it." i just think that logic goes both ways.

but hey, i bet we can all at least agree the 2016-2019 mac laptop keyboards were terrible (at least from a reliability standpoint).

 

[stevemiller]

You think you're funny, but Apple has increasingly shown disdain for ergonomics with their hardware. First, it was the mice. Ever since the iMac G3's puck mouse, Apple mice have received many poor reviews. And this is not a subjective matter. Their mice aren't ergonomic because they don't fit in the palm of your hand. Anyone's hands! The hands of the human beings who use Apple mice!

Keyboards are easily reviewed based on their ergonomics. However, while Apple has historically had unergonomic mice (the 2000 Pro and 2005 Mighty mice were merely "fine"), Apple keyboards have only become decreasingly ergonomic. The super short travel of their keys is as stiff as typing on concrete. Defending typing on concrete is like defending sitting on concrete furniture. Some people might enjoy it, like this guy:
View attachment 2153056

"ice cream quality is easily determined by flavour. chocolate is delicious and vanilla is terrible. q.e.d. you're wrong."

 

[MBAir2010]

form an experienced MacBook typist:
here are my favorite typing MacBooks:
1) Macbook Air 2010
2) MacBook Air 2020 M1
3) MacBook Pro 2012

 

[MBAir2010]

"ice cream quality is easily determined by flavour. chocolate is delicious and vanilla is terrible. q.e.d. you're wrong."

and no one eats the strawberry part!

 

[257Loner]

this is all so subjective. i've always preferred more laptop style keyboards. whenever i have to use a full desktop keyboard (including ones belonging to people who are obsessed with keyboards - so not cheap garbage ones) i can't believe how uncomfortable i find them.

to which i'm sure some would say "well you just need to get used to it." i just think that logic goes both ways.

but hey, i bet we can all at least agree the 2016-2019 mac laptop keyboards were terrible (at least from a reliability standpoint).

What's curious about subjectivity is that that is a quality that Apple does not want in their product designing process. Apple has a history of hiring experts in certain fields to lead their product development. Therefore, Apple might have hired an expert in keyboards to lead keyboard development and make objective improvements in their keyboards, and not subjective ones.

But what keyboard expert at Apple would have given the stamp of approval for their latest keyboards? Because as soon as you speak to many keyboard aficionados, they have very high standards that Apple keyboards do not satisfy:

 

[smirking]

Keyboards are easily reviewed based on their ergonomics.

Hi there. I'm a physical therapist by training. I went through a lot of school to be one for a while. I've treated patients for hand injuries and used to do ergonomic consultations.

What you just said is a common misconception about ergonomics and it's wrong. You can't easily review the ergonomics of anything because what makes something perfectly ergonomic for one person may make it worse for another.

Some people with tiny hands loved the puck mice. I had serious hand pain and the butterfly keyboard was the only one that I could type on pain free even though most people reported the opposite. And about that perfectly shaped mouse that fits right in your hand? It depends on how you use it. If you palm your mouse, it'll probably work well, but if you claw grip or fingertip your mouse, it might land you in a hand clinic.

Ergonomics is the study of fitting task work to individuals and there is no one size fits all in ergonomics.

It all depends on circumstances, so please stop telling people what is and isn't right.

 

[257Loner]

Hi there. I'm a physical therapist by training. I went through a lot of school for this. I've treated patients for hand injuries and have done ergonomic consultations.

What you just said is a common misconception about ergonomics and it's wrong. You can't easily review the ergonomics of anything because what makes something perfectly ergonomic for one person may not necessarily do it for another.

Some people with tiny hands loved the puck mice. I had serious hand pain and the butterfly keyboard was the only one that I could type on pain free. About that perfectly shaped mouse that fits right in your hand? It depends on how you use it. If you palm your mouse, it'll probably work well, but if you claw grip or fingertip your mouse, it might land you in a hand clinic.

It all depends so please stop telling people what is and isn't right.

Ergonomics is the study of fitting task to persons and there is no one size fits all in ergonomics.

Then you might be familiar with carpal tunnel syndrome, an inflammation that's exacerbated by using unergonomic computer equipment for extended periods of time. Articles like these...

Best Mouse For Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (2024): 6 Top Choices

This article explains what carpal tunnel is, how it affects writers, and the best mouse for carpal tunnel available on the market in 2024

becomeawritertoday.com

...typically recommend ergonomic mice to alleviate the symptoms of carpal tunnel, and you will never find the widely-criticized iMac hockey puck mouse among them.

 

[russell_314]

While I do have sympathy for those that don’t find these keyboards suitable, I AM glad I’m in the group that can say, “I like these keyboards”. Because there’s not likely going to be any new keyboards with Apple logo’s on them that are made too much different from these.

A keyboard is a personal thing so I can understand someone not liking it. I've used keyboards that others have said were really good and I didn't get the same impression. My issue was saying it's somehow considered an inferior or bad keyboard. Now if we're talking about the butterfly keyboard I can see that. I've watched lots of laptop reviews and I can't think of one that said it wasn't among the best. I have the MacBook Air so it's not quite as good as the Pro keyboard. I won't say it's the best laptop keyboard I've used because I've used some nice Lenovo laptops but it's good.

 

[mectojic]

I personally like the current gen the best. Butterfly sucked. But the unibody keyboards feel super mushy to me in comparison to the latest.

Interesting. How would you describe the current gen?

 

[smirking]

Then you might be familiar with carpal tunnel syndrome, an inflammation that's exacerbated by using unergonomic computer equipment for extended periods of time. Articles like these...

Best Mouse For Carpal Tunnel Syndrome (2024): 6 Top Choices

This article explains what carpal tunnel is, how it affects writers, and the best mouse for carpal tunnel available on the market in 2024

becomeawritertoday.com

...typically recommend ergonomic mice to alleviate the symptoms of carpal tunnel, and you will never find the widely-criticized iMac hockey puck mouse among them.

Dude, you're talking to someone whose profession was treating people for injuries like this. You really think you know more than someone who used to do this kind of thing professionally because you read a clickbait article on the Interwebs?

BTW, since you bring it up, I'll address a common misconception that most people have about hand pain. Most hand pain is NOT carpal tunnel syndrome. True carpal tunnel syndrome is actually not that common. Most people who have hand pain just have tendinitis and sometimes the actual injury isn't even in the wrist.

 

[eicca]

Interesting. How would you describe the current gen?

Precise. Not paper thin like the butterfly, not mushy like the unibody.

 

[stevemiller]

What's curious about subjectivity is that that is a quality that Apple does not want in their product designing process. Apple has a history of hiring experts in certain fields to lead their product development. Therefore, Apple might have hired an expert in keyboards to lead keyboard development and make objective improvements in their keyboards, and not subjective ones.

But what keyboard expert at Apple would have given the stamp of approval for their latest keyboards? Because as soon as you speak to many keyboard aficionados, they have very high standards that Apple keyboards do not satisfy:

but why does some keyboard afficionado's opinion about what's good or bad matter more than my own? i personally think those keyboards are garbage and i love my 2021 macbook pro keyboard. also i've never gotten carpal tunnel from my macbook but my hands start cramping within 30 seconds with high travel keyboards.

i'm not denying that you and many others can absolutely hate the macbook keyboards. i believe you! i'm just saying that for many people they're perfectly fine, and for some they're downright preferable. i've even heard there are people who prefer the feel of the butterfly keyboards. personally they probably were a bit shallow even to me, but i'm not going to deny their experiences. i had one and didn't bemoan it too much except for the terribly reliability issues.

 

[257Loner]

It all depends so please stop telling people what is and isn't right.

I'm going to refer you to this post: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...w-macbook-pro-keyboards.2379350/post-31936339

But moreover, no commercial product would be possible if there did not exist any agreed-upon standards of excellence. If you sell a crappy burger, few customers will like it. One person might say "It all depends!", but that establishment will quickly go out of business unless they quickly discover what most people generally like in a hamburger or any other product.

There exist techniques for discovering how to please customers. Some companies use focus groups. Some take surveys. Apple tends to hire experts, but also listen to customer feedback. My quoted post wonders aloud what keyboard expert at Apple would have approved of their latest keyboards.

 

[smirking]

I'm going to refer you to this post: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...w-macbook-pro-keyboards.2379350/post-31936339

You're unbelievable. Tell me, are you your own dentist, doctor, and lawyer too? How old are you?

 

[257Loner]

Dude, you're talking to someone whose profession was treating people for injuries like this. You really think you know more than someone who used to do this kind of thing professionally because you read a clickbait article on the Interwebs?

What kind of expertise is meant to blur categories and destroy knowledge? My response is meant to discuss possible common knowledge.

 

[257Loner]

You're unbelievable. Tell me, are you your own dentist, doctor, and lawyer too? How old are you?

I promise you, keyboards are easy. It's not that hard! Claiming that some people prefer butterfly keyboards, while true, did not prove to be a success for Apple and most of their customers. This "expert" says "horses for courses" is the only knowledge applicable to this discussion, and that's not true. Otherwise, Apple would not have received the backlash they got for the butterfly keyboard fiasco. There do exist standards, and that's why I brought up the commonly-prescribed ergonomic mice to help alleviate carpal tunnel syndrome to establish a basis of common knowledge.

 

[smirking]

What kind of expertise is meant to blur categories and destroy knowledge? My response is meant to discuss possible common knowledge.

You keep insisting there is one standard and that you're going by that one objective standard. I'm telling you as a professional that it's way more complicated than that and there isn't simply a line that says this device is ergonomic and this one isn't. It all depends on the person and context in which it's used which is why this is such a contentious conversation.

People who don't understand this argue like they're talking about different realities... because they ARE different realities.

 

[smirking]

I promise you, keyboards are easy... There do exist standards, and that's why I brought up the commonly-prescribed ergonomic mice to help alleviate carpal tunnel syndrome to establish a basis of common knowledge.

Serious question. Are you in high school right now?

 

[257Loner]

You keep insisting there is one standard and that you're going by that one objective standard. I'm telling you as a professional that it's way more complicated than that and there isn't simply a line that says this device is ergonomic and this one isn't. It all depends on the person and context in which it's used which is why this is such a contentious conversation.

People who don't understand this argue like they're talking about different realities... because they ARE different realities.

If you were my physical therapist, I would hear you out. I would understand from what you were telling me that it might be worth trying out a variety of mice, ergonomic or unergonomic, to see if anything at all alleviated my carpal tunnel.

But when Apple designs a product, they must find out in advance what most people will like. They cannot subscribe to "horses for courses" because everyone is going to get the same keyboard. Therefore, Apple is tasked with finding what makes a keyboard objectively good in the hopes of satisfying as many of their customers as possible. The opening post of this topic noted that Apple has forgotten what made their previous keyboards great since they've lost keyboard travel generation after generation after generation. And this has made typing on them very uncomfortable. Therefore, I said I might replace my Retina MacBook Pro with another similar model. "Horses for courses" is irrelevant when Apple keyboards keep losing key travel generation after generation after generation. There's a history of things getting worse. That's what I was pointing out.