IBM - compatible?

Discussion in 'Macintosh Computers' started by MOFS, Jul 7, 2003.

  1. MOFS macrumors 65816


    Feb 27, 2003
    Durham, UK
    Remember the old term for PC-compatible was "IBM compatible". Well, with the new G5s, we now are (in a sense)! I wonder what changed IBM's whole attitude towards Macs/ Apple – the success of Windows/ Microsoft compared to OS/2 perhaps?

    PS: HAL (in 2001) was named after IBM with the letters moved one place forwards - neat huh?
  2. Billicus macrumors 6502a


    Apr 3, 2002
    Charles City, Iowa
    That's because they were all IBM clones. Apple computers aren't IBM clones, they just have IBM processors in them.
  3. gopher macrumors 65816

    Mar 31, 2002
    Maryland, USA
    Re: IBM - compatible?

    The G3s and PowerPC 601 processors are/were both made by IBM. The G5 isn't the first processor made for Apple by IBM. Back with the 601 was released in the PowerMac 6100, 7100, 8100 you might have had a point. That was a weird time.
  4. Sun Baked macrumors G5

    Sun Baked

    May 19, 2002
    Apple did work with IBM & Motorola at building a reference board for use with a variety of OSs.

    The CHRP boards that were around just as the clones were killed. And have survived as Linux PPC machines.

    But it wasn't Apple that derailed the project, MS killing Windows for PPC sort of sank everything.
  5. gopher macrumors 65816

    Mar 31, 2002
    Maryland, USA
    CHRP isn't completely dead...the fact that Macs now use IDE drives, VGA adapters/ports, PCI slots, AGP slots, and even USB slots all come from the CHRP program. There was a time when all you had was PDS, Nubus, SCSI, din serial ports, Apple Desktop Bus, and only Apple only video ports with only third party video adapters that Apple was really proprietary. Apple really has limited itself to specialized processors and ROM chips on the motherboard and everything else is commonplace in the PC industry. There was a time in which everything you bought had to be made for Macs. Apple has expanded on its compatibility with the PC industry a lot since its heydays.
  6. Lanbrown macrumors 6502a

    Mar 20, 2003
    How are the processors specialized? If you want to get technical, the processor in your mobile phone is specialized, as is the one in a digital cable box/satellite receiver. As is any ASIC design.

    If you meant specialized in terms of control, then Intel at onetime sued everyone that tried to create an x86 clone or that called is an X86 processor. The PowerPC architecture has IBM and Motorola producing the chips and Apple as the other member of the group. When have you seen Intel, AMD, Transmeta, etc. work together? Why do you think Intel is reluctant to jump on the X86-64-bit processor? That can’t control it like the Itanium. Intel hates open source and competition. Their long-term goal is to get Itanium the dominant player in the datacenter and on the desktop. While the PowerPC is not as open as the SPARC chip from Sun, where you can get a developer kit for $99 and you can produce a SPARC processor royalty free. The PowerPC is not as closed as some of the others like Itanium. It is the same as the majority of the processors on the market.

    If the ROM chip you are talking about is the OpenFirmware/OpenBoot, then at onetime that was an industry standard, IEE 1275. Please show me what standard the BIOS use in the peecee world. As with the majority of designs in the peecee world, they created it and is nothing more then a spec, like USB is.
  7. gopher macrumors 65816

    Mar 31, 2002
    Maryland, USA
    Apple has some ROM chip that can't be copied by the PC world, otherwise clones of Macs would have been made without Apple's permission. There are sufficient people desiring Mac clones that somebody would have figured out a way.
  8. Lanbrown macrumors 6502a

    Mar 20, 2003
    You can't copy something that someone owns the rights too. Look at all the lawsuits Intel throws out for chipsets. Only companies that they want are licensed the rights to make them. So they are every bit as specialized.

    What Apple does is no different; they just don't license it out and thus the only player. There is a good reason for this, look at the PC industry, they go every which direction. They all move independently and that slows progress down. A technology can't be added unless the hardware and software company move together. Apple has everything under one roof so coordination is better. They just don’t to make their market a half-hearted attempt at things like the PC market is.

    When it was only IBM making peecees, the others were locked out because they didn’t have the BIOS. Remember who the first to reverse engineer the BIOS was?
  9. sturm375 macrumors 6502

    Jan 8, 2002
    Bakersfield, CA
    I beg to differ. While Apple might be the first company to fully integrate a complete package, they are generally behind the PC world in terms of hardware. Unless Apple develops the device (like FW800), new hardware is always available in the PC world first. Examples:
    64-bit Processors
    Fast Ethernet (10/100)
    Gigibit Ethernet (10/100/1000)
    Digital Audio Output/Input
    High End Video Cards (Radeon, GeForce, Etc.)
    USB 2.0

    Again, I am not saying that Apple isn't the first to make an "affordable" package including these technologies, just that they are seldom the first to offer these technologies.
  10. Lanbrown macrumors 6502a

    Mar 20, 2003
    AGP was an Intel invention, who do you think would get it first. AGP is also not a standard, but done the typical PC way. Look at how many times it has been updated. Obviously very little thought was put into it and requires recurring modification. Much like the ATA/IDE standard. Look at ho many times the ceiling was reached, while the SCSI side was just laughing at them.

    PCI: most companies used their own bus designs. The PC used ISA, Sun used sBus and UPA, IBM had theirs, etc. PCI is where all companies decided to use a common bus. Wait until 3GIO, it will blow the doors off PCI and PCI-X. There still are specialized buses, like AGP and UPA still in use.

    64-bit processors in a peecee? Get real; Sun has had 64-bit processors for sometime now. So has IBM, Digital (DEC), HP, SGI, etc. The first "peecee" with a 64-bit processor would be the Itanium, that is even a stretch as it is a replacement for the PA-RISC and was considered a workstation as was the ones from Sun. IBM, SGI, etc.. The 64-Bit AMD will really be the first PC. I wouldn't exactly say they have beat Apple by all that much. How many big peecee makers do you see selling a 64-bit AMD right now, today?

    The peecee side will get desktop chip from AMD while Apple will join the exclusive list and give their customers scaled down server chip. Guess which one has better engineering?

    Networking all dealt with what the companies that were buying a large amount of systems wanted. The peecee side has an advantage there. Apple has more machines in their lineup with gigabit then the peecee side does. They are still using 10/100, like the Dell workstations.

    Digital audio has been slow to adopt all around.

    Graphics cards. Blame Nvidia and ATI for that. They sell to the peecee side first. If they released them at the same time, then neither would have an advantage. There are more peecee users then Max users. This has nothing to so with this argument. Just like if Apple had over 50% of the market share, ATI and Nvidia would cater to the Mac crowd first. To really get technical, consumers don't get the high-end graphic cards. Professionals get them in terms of Sun, SGI, etc visualization workstations for CAD, animations, graphics, etc.

    Do you know why PCI-X was created? 3GIO was not close enough, so it is a band-aid until it does come in the next year. That is all PCI-X is. It is irrelevant. I would rather have independent 64-bit 66Mhz buses. Have four slots, have four independent buses. That offers you 528MB/s on each one.

    Some companies have been put off by what memory to use, you had DDR and RAMBUS. No one knew which way to go. At times too much emphasis is put on the memory speed. There is more to making a fast system then just memory speed.

    Serial-ATA has been slow to adopt, period. Dell still is selling ATA systems and use SCSI in some of their workstations. Some of their machines have S-ATA though.

    All variations of USB was and never will be a standard. There are compatibility issues with it and it controlled by the peecee industry. No wonder why they had it first. Firewire was started before USB ever was. USB was only deemed necessary because they didn't want to pay Apple royalties, so they invented their own so they can pay themselves to use it. It is a way for the executives to make more money, look at who is on the board. If you look at the licensing costs, it costs an extra dollar to have two Firewire ports instead of USB.
    Why didn’t they take Firewire to the IEEE like Apple did? It would have delayed it by a year or two, by then Firewire would have had a firm footing and USB would be DOA.

    Apple has more super dives in their machines then their competition does.

    Hmm, Centrino wasn't the first; Apple was, several years ago. Centrino also doesn't support G, which will come late this or next year. If you want G, you have to have a card that will take up a PC Card slot or a PCI slot in the machine. Apple will install one from the factory and not take-up a slot.

    You forgot one. The peecee was the first to have integrated graphics built-in to the chipset. They can keep it, as they are usually very lousy.

    Guess what, AGP will fade away as well. 3GIO will take care of it. It will offer more bandwidth in a switch environment. If you want to get technical, AGP 8 was the first to offer dual display capabilities. Companies like Sun have had that for years, either through the UPA, sBus or PCI.
  11. sturm375 macrumors 6502

    Jan 8, 2002
    Bakersfield, CA
    Let me say it again, for those who don't seem to be able to read. Apple is usually the first to put new technology into a complete "affordable" system. They are however very rarely the first company out with the new technology. Apple is the largest single computer manufacture in the world. I expect they get very good wholesale prices for the newest tech. This is why they were the first to provide a relatively affordable dvd-rw solution to the home user.

    You are correct in most of what you said, you just didn't refute any my origional argument. I do have to point out one thing: Apple was not first to the market with 802.11b. They introduced the Airport before the 802.11b standard went through IEEE. When the standard was published, Airport didn't meet it. It took a firmware update to meet the IEEE standard, meanwhile other companies sold true 802.11b hardware.

    If you can call the new (not yet actually released) G5s a Personal Computer, than I can call the systems that BOXX makes a Personal Computer. Or the ones that Xi Computers makes are Personal Computers. Both of these companies are currently shipping (BOXX since early June). There are more out there, like Or you can order your own Opteron, MoBo, and components and build your own.
  12. Lanbrown macrumors 6502a

    Mar 20, 2003
    You mentioned stuff that Apple was first on; you just didn’t know it. You mentioned 802.11g as one; who on the peecee side is selling integrated 802.11g systems? Now back to 802.11b. What peecee company sold integrated 802.11b as well? They just started that this year with Centrino.

    I refuted quite a bit and pointed out that peecee companies created most of the items mentioned. Why would Apple get it before they do? Apple gets it after they have rolled it out for themselves. Like USB, what a POS specification that is. It was designed as their version of Firewire; they just had to rush it out the door, hence the 1.1 that was virtually the same a 1.0 but some bug fixes. Not to mention that chipsets they used was never standardized on, they were compatibility issues from that as well.

    Look who can't read? Look at what I said about 64-bit systems. I said how many BIG peecee companies are selling 64-bit systems? You bring up companies that are small and not very well known as your examples. Want to try again?
  13. sturm375 macrumors 6502

    Jan 8, 2002
    Bakersfield, CA
    1) Nobody on the PC side is as big as Apple. For one thing nobody on the PC side makes their own computers, and OS to operate them.

    2) I was not speaking of integrating these technologies. I am speaking of components. I said that Apple is usually the first to package the new technologies together, but not the first company to have those technologies.

    3) Unfortunatly, due to Intel's Strong Arm Tactics, none of the large OEMs (Dell, Gateway, Etc) produce AMD Based computers anymore. Therefore you have to go to "obscure" venders for complete systems. However, Boxx systems are well know, or so I've heard, in the 3D graphics market.

    BTW, another nitpick. I happen to own an nVidia GeForce4 Ti4600. It is an AGP 4x card, with Dual Monitor support.

    Companies building Opteron Workstation systems:


    Company URL
    High Performance Servers and Workstations for CAD/CAM and Scientific Applications.
    Boxx Technologies
    BOXX is a leading edge developer and manufacturer of high-performance, high-bandwidth Windows NT, Windows 2000 and Linux based hardware and software solutions.
    CCSI (Computer & Control Solutions Inc.)
    We build Thermally Correct? high density systems.
    Monarch Systems
    Monarch Computer is a leading provider of high-quality, pre- built Personal Computers, award-winning CAD and Corporate Workstations, as well as Mid-to-High-End Servers.
    @Xi Computer
    The Leader in Performance System Integration!

    Company URL
    Angstrom Micro
    Angstrom Microsystems is the world's first provider of dual-processor 1U AMD Opteron development servers and is a leader in high-performance server solutions.
    Now Micro
    Now Micro, Inc. is the manufacturter of the Frontier Systems line of custom configured technology solutions including PCs, Notebooks and Servers.
    Einux develops and markets servers, storage and turn-key solutions, which help companies with high-performance computing requirements, achieve maximum return on their investment.
    Micro Pro is a nationally recognized OEM computer company and parts wholesaler/reseller that has been in business for over 10 years.
  14. Lanbrown macrumors 6502a

    Mar 20, 2003
    Nobody is as big as Apple. In terms of what?

    You are implying that Apple ALWAYS gets them last, which is not the case.

    I know what Intel does. Don't forget that, Compaq at onetime sold AMD based systems and companies were reluctant to buy them. Their clients didn’t want them so they dropped them. The other companies sold them as well, some results. Home users buy them because they are typically cheaper then the Intel machines. Once again, so me a big peecee company that sells the 64-bit AMD system. You can't, face it; you lost that argument. The real 3D world doesn’t use a peecee.

    I said AGP 8X was the first AGP to offer dual display as in two cards. 4x doesn't support it. The functionality has been around for many years, just now the peecee side got it. At onetime, the peecee wouldn't even boot with two cards in it. It would if one was VGA and the other monochrome.
  15. sturm375 macrumors 6502

    Jan 8, 2002
    Bakersfield, CA
    Not being first, and being last are very different. I said, and will say it again, Apple is usually the first to get all the new tech integrated under one roof. They are not usually the first to get the newest tech. If I had the time, money, and inclination, I could go to, and build a computer that would whip the tar out of the G5, that haven't shipped yet. That's the difference, Apple is ahead of Dell and Gateway, but not the home computer builder, like myself. The one thing I can't build into my computer is FW800. That is because it is propritary to Apple, and either other companies choose not to pay Apple for licensing, or Apple isn't selling.

    I guess I don't understand what you mean by dual displays. Are you talking about 1 AGP card that has the capibility of sending independant signels to 2 different displays? If so, my 4xAGP GeForce Ti4600 does that. If you are talking about 2 AGP slots, that is something I've heard about, but never seen before. I have in the past set up computers, quite easily I might add, with 2 PCI Video card, and 1 AGP + 1 PCI video cards. The AGP+PCI computer was done with AGP 2x I belive (It was long ago). These were all done with nVidia based cards, as I have found that ATI, though they preform well, often times conflict with other hardware.
  16. macser macrumors newbie

    Jul 9, 2003
    Apple Using Intel?

    One of my friends works for a mexican manufacturer and he just told me that he heard form a very good source that Apple will be releasing an Intel based computer on December...

    Have anyone heard anything?
  17. sturm375 macrumors 6502

    Jan 8, 2002
    Bakersfield, CA
    Re: Apple Using Intel?

    Seeing as how they just annouced their alliance with IBM and the G5, I doubt very much that this is true.

    The only possibilities are perhapse they will use an Intel processor in an Apple PDA or Tablet PC. I still doubt it very much.
  18. gopher macrumors 65816

    Mar 31, 2002
    Maryland, USA
    Re: Re: Apple Using Intel?

    Apple's "announced" alliance with IBM started back in 1992 or 1993 when the PowerPC was announced in Apple's future. It is has had an aliance with both IBM and Motorola to produce CPUs. If you look in iBooks and the G3 Powerbooks, and the Blue and White G3s, and the Powerbook G3 series through 2000, you'll find that all those CPUs were made by IBM. It was called AIM alliance. At times it has been shaky in the past since IBM didn't have access to Motorola's Altivec instruction set, but if you look at the specs of the G5, similar vector instructions exist to those that Motorola has in Altivec. Thus calling this a "just announced" alliance is somewhat a misnomer. It is a reinvigorated alliance with IBM.

    But the ability to make Mac OS X run on Intel machines is not going to happen anytime soon. It will take Apple's making more money on software than hardware for that to become a reality, and Apple's own userbase to become aclimated to the possibility of such a machine. Most Mac users would say never to that since rewriting the applications to compile on Intel running Mac OS X would require as much an effort as it took to get applications upgraded to Mac OS X if not more so! And you can forget Mac OS 9 compatibility if that were ever to happen. There is a very good article on why this won't happen on page 128 of the July 2003 Macworld by Matt Deatherage.
  19. Sun Baked macrumors G5

    Sun Baked

    May 19, 2002
    Re: Apple Using Intel?



    That's funny, needed a good laugh.

    Yes, Apple is working with AMD.

    IBM is working with AMD.

    Steve Jobs is keeping his options "open".


    Must mean that the G5 is going to be replaced by Intel x86 CPUs in December. :rolleyes:

    [edit - must have lost something in the translation, like credibility]
  20. Flowbee macrumors 68030


    Dec 27, 2002
    Alameda, CA
    Re: Apple Using Intel?

    A very silly rumor, indeed. Are you sure you're not from MacWhispers?
  21. applemacdude macrumors 68040


    Mar 26, 2001
    Over The Rainbow
    What part of mexico? What reliable source? What reliable source? What reliable source? What reliable source? Comon this is a little lie you made up isn't it?:) ;)
  22. Lanbrown macrumors 6502a

    Mar 20, 2003
    You could put all kinds of crap in a peecee, guess what, nothing is integrated though. You could fill all the PCI slots up and still not have everything. There is no built-in wireless option, or Bluetooth. You still end up with the same POS in a beige box. Wow. What about a factory warranty, that's right, no warranty.

    How about two, as in separate, not the same, independent, dos, 1+1=2, one less then tres, one more then uno, graphics cards. See, the "s" on the end, it means its plural, i.e. more then one.

    Only AGP 8X supports it, and even then, peecee companies only out one AGP slot in. When 4x came out, it offered marginally better graphics then 2x did. Conflict, very good, that's because of the BIOS and the lousy peecee design. It was fine over 25 years ago when it was created, but as with everything electronic, it is more then time for an update, but they can't do it. AMD is only drawing it out further. Who wants to buy basically the same thing you could 25 years ago. Back to the video card crap. Some of the wonderful peecee designs have integrated graphics and thus no AGP slot, most users have a very hard time getting a PCI card recognized, especially the ones from ATI. So much for "compatible" that they keep mentioning.

    Peecee manufacturers still don't sell many AMD systems as companies don’t trust AMD on the desktop and even less in the server room. Intel could screw themselves with the Itanic and AMD goes down with the ship as well. The ship has sailed; so far, it’s a one-way trip.
  23. sturm375 macrumors 6502

    Jan 8, 2002
    Bakersfield, CA
    You must be an angry person. I ask a simple question, and get a rant back. I guess you are talking about multiple AGP Slots on a motherboard. As I said, something I've heard about, but never seen. Most home users, and heck most workstations do just fine with 2 monitors, which is handled just find by a dual display card. (That's one AGP card with 2 outputs ususally a DVI and VGA, and usually comes with a DVI to VGA adapter so you can have 2 VGA Displays)

    As for the rest of your rant. Listen closely: I am, and have been agreeing with you. Apple is usually the first to put the new tech into a complete package, all bundled nicely, including a pretty case, nice warrenty, great software, etc.

    BTW, if you buy a decent name brand, like Sony, Crucial, Western Digital, Creative Labs, LeadTek, Gainward, ATI, Abit, Asus, Tyan, Intel, 3Com, US Robotic (now a division of 3Com), Plextor, and so on, you ususally get a pretty good warrenty. You just have to put up with the hassel of going to different companies for each component in your computer.
  24. Lanbrown macrumors 6502a

    Mar 20, 2003
    Sorry, what peecee companies call workstations are not real workstations. Same architecture except for a few upgrades here and there. A real workstation has a very powerful graphics card; the cheap ones run more then what a peecee costs.

    You brought up technology that Apple was the first one, which made it irrelevant to the whole topic. Like 802.11g, gigabit, etc. What peecee company has gigabit on their notebooks or even some of their desktops, and I am talking big companies.

    Exactly the hassle and when one device doesn't work, they all point the finger at one another and you are stuck in the middle. Building your own peecee is almost always cheaper, but you trade for the savings. If you have a problem, a peecee manufacturer replaces components, sometimes several components because any one of them could be the culprit. Imagine trying that with a self built system. They will want proof that it's their problem or not another piece of the computer.

    The peecee companies put profit first and performance, expandability and engineering near the bottom. Like the blade servers they sold several years ago. Companies like Sun stayed away from them, as the bus could not handle the load. While you could fit more processors in the same space, you didn't have the bandwidth to feed them. The peecee companies knew this, but still proceeded with them. Blade servers got a tarnished reputation because of it.

    What about SCSI? Apple used it for a longtime, now peecee companies use it many years later on their workstations. The peecee companies used to use specialized hardware all over the place, like special sized hard drives or the way they mount. Graphics cards that used a special slot or were built-in (they are back to that again) and no way to disable it. It was hit or miss if an ISA card would work. There was nothing compatible except the software; hardware certainly was not. For 25 years the specifications on what the software programmer can and cannot do still has not been resolved. Every release of windows they chip a little off to make the OS responsible for everything. Something UNIX has had since the beginning. Sun defines what can be done, as does IBM, HP for their PA-RISC, etc. Apple is up there too; the hardware and software must coexist. Something the peecee industry is still trying to get a handle on.
  25. macser macrumors newbie

    Jul 9, 2003
    Don't Know Manufacturer Name


    1. I'm not sure about it, that's why I asked!
    2. I know fo a fact that this Company it's in Guadalajara and that these guys built tha motherboard for the firt iMac. They've been building componets for Apple for a while, that's why I think there's a big chance that it can actually happen.

    ... maybe he just sald it to upset me.

    I asked in other forums and this is one of the ansewrs.

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