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Re: I was just wondering...

Originally posted by Dr. Distortion
All G1/G2/G3/G4 processors have a unit which can execute 68k code... Will the Power 970 also be able to execute old 68k apps (under Classic)?

No they don't, 68k emulation on Macs has always been handled in software.
 
Originally posted by scem0
Note - This processor isn't really going to outperform other companies processors by much, but it will come in multi-processors, making it faster. That is my view of this processor. The only difficulty is waiting for it......

Not necessarily true at all. Just because it can go into SMP configurations doesn't mean you're going to see a large speed boast. First and foremost, for the apps that a professional will use, anything over 2 cpus will start to become diminishing returns in a real hurry (most of these apps are designed with only two cpus in mind... why waste time developing an app for a system that not only doesn't exist, but will be painfully difficult to optimize for). Probably the only area that you will need more than 2 cpus will be the high end server, and that is a market that apple isn't in yet, and will need to create a new product line to enter. Xserve ain't a high end server.

And, on a second note, this processor won't do SMP any better than a G4. SMP relies very little on the processor, but instead on the chipset it runs on. All the processor does is do the work that's fed to it- it does not make the choice of what to work on. So, if the chipset is better at SMP (which can be a debateable point, since SMP is a pretty mature concept and I think the G4 does it quite well), that should be attributed to the gains that you are claiming, not the new CPU.
 
Originally posted by locovaca
this processor won't do SMP any better than a G4.

If I'm remembering the articles I read last week correctly, the PPC970 will do SMP better than the G4 simply because it's point to point between the processor and the northbridge, rather than a shared bus architecture. (think Athlon EV6 verses P3 GTL+)
 
Originally posted by ogun7


Once again, we have a "Mac fan" that has TOTALLY missed the boat in what the power of this processor really means to desktop computing and is completely blinded by MHz. If 64-bit processing, 2 Altivec units, 200 instructions moving through the processor at any given time and up to 8 way SMP aren't enough for you, then get a SGI or Sun workstation, and stay away from Macs.

I guess I took the bait.
I did not totally miss the boat... the reason I sit in front of a mac right now is that I think they're better, and I don't think that GHz are everything... I know that the macs out there right now will kick every P4's ass. As for the Itanium, I'm not sure about that, I 've never seen one performing...
My point is that they have 1.8 now, and they will be able to sell this chip in a year. Intel (and AMD, which produces the faster processor IMO) will not sleep during that time, and they will have at least 3.5 GHz for desktops... and those chips are cheap, not like those high-end server processors. Intel will probably bring the Itanium up to 2GHz by that time, too. Apple will still have more expensive, but compareable products, if they use the chip, sure. I'm not saying this will ruin Apple or anything like that, cause we've seen that Apple actually does good on the consumer market , though they are more expensive.
I said "This is BS" because I'm just upset that IBM can't do any better (well, they already do better than Motorola)... I mean, you don't need all this expensive high-end stuff as a consumer. Sure, professionals will profit. But as a consumer, I want a simple processor, that runs the system, browser, MP3 encoder and video software fast... stuff like that. And don't tell me, that a P4 in one of those actual Dell computers doesn't do better than a 700MHz iMac, which is more expensive.
And still, I am a loyal Mac user, because Apple just knows how to make great products. And I think that in one year, speed won't matter that much anyways... computers today can do everything a consumer needs in an acceptable amount of time, so people will care more about software and the OS.
Besides that, this is just my opinion, there are a lot of people out there who do need that speed advantage every day for video editing and stuff like that, and they will be willing to pay a high price.
The main reason I use a mac is the software, mainly the great OS and apps from apple, not because I think that my iMac is faster than a PC. Because I've done every-day stuff on a PC as well, and for a regular consumer, a PC is simply faster. This new chip won't close the GHz gap, which is not that important, I agree. But it'll get the mac platform closer to the pc performance.
 
Originally posted by TheT
I know that the macs out there right now will kick every P4's ass.

What you know is wrong, as nice a processor as the G4 is, it's no match for a 2.8Ghz P4 with a PC1066 RDram memory subsystem.

the G4 OTOH, is an embedded processor with delusions of grandeur. :)
 
Originally posted by Chryx


What you know is wrong, as nice a processor as the G4 is, it's no match for a 2.8Ghz P4 with a PC1066 RDram memory subsystem.

the G4 OTOH, is an embedded processor with delusions of grandeur. :)
Point given, I should have said it'll kick every consumer-PCs ass. What I mean is that the actual G4 desktop systems perform better than those Dell-consumer PCs... they'll not beat those really expensive high-end ones :)
 
Originally posted by TheT

Point given, I should have said it'll kick every consumer-PCs ass. What I mean is that the actual G4 desktop systems perform better than those Dell-consumer PCs... they'll not beat those really expensive high-end ones :)
While I wish I could support you on this, the facts say otherwise - per Dell's web site:
Dell Dimension 4550 Series:
Pentium 4 2.80 Ghz with 533MHz system bus/512K L2 Cache

Customizations (tried to match peripherals and whatnot of a 867 Dual PowerMac):
- 256 MB DDR SDRAM at 333Mhz
- No monitor.
- 64MB DDR NVidia GeForce 4 MX
- 60GB ATA/100 7200RPM HD
- Win XP Pro
- SoundBlaster Live! Digital Sound Card
- Harman Kardon HK-206 Speakers
- Norton AntiVirus 12-month (added that because you really NEED that on WinBlows! :) )
- Dell Jukebox (MusicMatch)
- Dell Picture Studio, Image Expert Standard
- Downgraded to 1 year waranty (to match Apple)
- Standard Dell Movie Studio Bundle

Total Price (before tax/shipping): $1,367
Plus, there's a $100 rebate that I do not think is factored into that price

Compared to $1670 for the cheapest PowerMac tower.

***BUT***
I'd still rather have the Mac at home.:D
 
Originally posted by eric_n_dfw

***BUT***
I'd still rather have the Mac at home.:D
Exactly! There's a thread by scem0 somewhere here, who has just recently bought a PC.
The thing is: if you are a student like scem0 or me and only have like 600 bucks, you can get either a 2GHz+ PeeCee or an old G4 400.
Back to the topic: This situation won't change with the 970.. it'll be, just like the G4 was at its introduction, the best processor in a consumer product ever, but too expensive!
 
Originally posted by eric_n_dfw

While I wish I could support you on this, the facts say otherwise - per Dell's web site:


Compared to $1670 for the cheapest PowerMac tower.

***BUT***
I'd still rather have the Mac at home.:D


it's in the software for me

while windows has improved a lot since the early days, the mac os, whether it is os 8, os 9, or os x, is so much easier to use than windows

and less problematic

now that macs have intel's usb, universal motherboard architecture, and some of the same cd-rom, dvd, and superdirve components/parts, the difference between macs and pcs is most noticeably seen in the operating systems

apple does not have it perfect and never has, but they are light years ahead of windows in their operating system's ease of use for the average, non-techie user

i don't care if PCs go to 3.5 ghz next summer, i will still be happy running os x on a sub-2ghz apple-made computer:D
 
Originally posted by TheT

My point is that they have 1.8 now, and they will be able to sell this chip in a year. Intel (and AMD, which produces the faster processor IMO) will not sleep during that time, and they will have at least 3.5 GHz for desktops... and those chips are cheap, not like those high-end server processors. Intel will probably bring the Itanium up to 2GHz by that time, too.

I said "This is BS" because I'm just upset that IBM can't do any better. I mean, you don't need all this expensive high-end stuff as a consumer. Sure, professionals will profit. But as a consumer, I want a simple processor, that runs the system, browser, MP3 encoder and video software fast... stuff like that. And don't tell me, that a P4 in one of those actual Dell computers doesn't do better than a 700MHz iMac, which is more expensive.
You're problem, and I don't mean this to be rude, is you really have no grounding or knowledge of what is coming down the line.

AMD's processors will be around 2 - 2.2 GHz in Q3 2003. That's assuming everything goes perfectly smoothly for them and they don't just do another paper launch.

The Itanium will be around 1.3 - 1.5 Ghz.

I hate to break this to you but all the areas except possibly web browsing (sorry I don't like having to switch browsers for some pages) are generally performed better on a G4 anyway. About the only major flaw right now in the G4 is its FSB. Contrary to popular belief since it stalled it has been keeping up in scaling (by %) reasonably well and there are no signs it won't have a roadmap for the future.

My only complaint would be Apple isn't filtering technology down to the consumer lines fast enough but I believe that is more due to the fact they have nowhere to send their professional line. The PPC970 give the Pro line a future, which leaves the consumer line a little more open to development.
 
Originally posted by Telomar
AMD's processors will be around 2 - 2.2 GHz in Q3 2003. That's assuming everything goes perfectly smoothly for them and they don't just do another paper launch.

FYI, I can buy a 2.06Ghz AthlonXP right now, they are still kinda rare, but they are out there.
 
Originally posted by Chryx


FYI, I can buy a 2.06Ghz AthlonXP right now, they are still kinda rare, but they are out there.
I should correct myself and say AMD's performance processors. The clawhammers will clock around there. The current XP processors are a less efficient processor.
 
audio people NEED the PPC970, without question!

Audio is a world where its often can do or can't do. Not can do or can do 20 seconds later.

I agree there, I think it was the guy doing the audio column on Xlr8yourmac a while ago that decribed audio vs graphics needs when it comes to cpu power.

"Audio performance is always black & white, graphics is always shades of grey" or words to that effect.

Just for comparison, and this is a little biased given the different CPUs involved but here goes :

Photoshop (from barefeats)

P4, 2Ghz : Wait 90 seconds (SP action file)
P4, 2Ghz : Wait 73 seconds (MP action file)

G4, 2 x 1Ghz : Wait 101 seconds (SP action file)
G4, 2 x 1Ghz : Wait 48 seconds (MP action file)

Protools LE, dave c test (from DUC)

All results are realtime performance, extension tweaks and custom RAM allocation is used on the macs and various OS settings are used on the PCs aswell for best performance. The test is not MP aware so only 1 cpu is being used for both Protools LE and the Mac OS. PT 6 under OS X promises a 10-15% improvement over PT 5 under OS 9 on an MP aware mac but even that isn't going to be enough from the results we've had so far :

G4, 2 x 800Mhz : 24 tracks + 8 aux (160 realtime plug-ins)

P4, 2.26 Northwood : 24 tracks + 20 aux (220 realtime plug-ins)

The reason the G4 tested is only a dual 800Mhz model and not a dual 1.25Ghz model for example is because the guy who tested it used a very well optimised extension set and audio drive arangement that hasn't been beaten by any of the newer models other people have run the test on. Also, the PC was tested with far lower buffer setting of 128bytes where as the G4 was using a 1024byte buffer. This is kind of like a cache used to buffer the plug-ins and audio tracks so they don't use as much cpu load.

This proves without any doubt at all that the Northwood pentium 4 with it's 512K L2, 133Mhz bus (Quad pumped) and RDRAM smokes the G4 with it's far lower clockspeed, 256K L2, 133Mhz bus and SDRAM.

The dual 1Ghz DDR macs have already being tested and don't perform any better than the older QS models so the extra benefit of the 167Mhz bus vs the 133Mhz bus on the older models is obviously cancelled out by the smaller L3 cache.

The Dave C test is this (just incase you're interested) :

Sample rate = 44100
Hardware Buffers = 1024
Bitdepth = 16bits

1) Open new PT session
2) Create a new mono audio track
3) Add PT stock effects Compressor, 4B-EQ, Slap delay, medium delay, long delay.
4) Select the newly created track from step 2 above.
5) Duplicate the track.
6) Record enable the track.
7) Repeat step 5 until your CPU goes into the red.
8) If your CPU is in the RED delete the last track created. IF it's still in the red, delete another track until the CPU is back in the green. Click on the CPU meter after every deletion to reset the meter.
9) Hit RECORD, and record for 60 sec. Repeat steps 8 and 9 until you can record 60 secs. without cpu meter peaking.

*** N.B. If you can achieve the full 24 tracks with record enabled and can record for 60 secs. start adding Aux tracks with the same plug-ins and keep going until you hit RED.
 
Originally posted by Chryx
With the low power consumption we can see new enclosures, and What i am saying is maybe we will have the cube back (with dual processors),

Nope, not gonna happen, the PPC970 is relatively low power for a processor in that performance catagory, but it's NO WHERE NEAR cool enough to stick in an 8"x8"x8" cube (well, maybe ONE of them with active cooling)
The cube will not come back but maybe a bigger version, you see with apple they go the extremes, with the iMac you can't upgrade anything execpt memory, and then you increase loads of money and get the Power mac... The cube was fine except that it had no upgradeablity with like thet iMac...
The IBM 970 shows lots of improvment over the either High MHZ processors with big lines of command (p4) or the lower MHZ processors with short lines of command(G4). Since the IBM 970 has both a higher clock speed and slightly longer lines then the G4.
It should make a good processor.:)
 
Re: audio people NEED the PPC970, without question!

Originally posted by barkmonster

The dual 1Ghz DDR macs have already being tested and don't perform any better than the older QS models so the extra benefit of the 167Mhz bus vs the 133Mhz bus on the older models is obviously cancelled out by the smaller L3 cache.

I'm not convinced that the tests comparing the old and new 1Ghz G4's weren't processor bound (rather than cache/bandwidth bound)

I'd be inclined to not guesstimate the performance in a pro-audio situation off a possibly flawed benchmark set.
 
Speculate

Reposted from /.

What I really want to know is how much this chip is going to cost. If its cheap for Apple to put 2 or 4 of these in a machine, then how much will it matter that an expensive P4 (P5) out performs it? Hmmm.... The current Wind-Tunnel G4s raised a few eyebrows when it first came out do to the new case design. These things were designed to disapate heat! A HUGE (7 lbs) heat sink w/ matching fan, a small case fan, 2 fans on the power supply, and a ton of ventalation in the back. WAY more cooling that those 2 little G4s require. I think Apple is trying to avoid the fiasco it had with the 1st gen G4s (Yikes? Sawtooth? Can't remember which came first) where they just slapped a G4 onto a G3 mobo. This time around, I believe they're releasing a new mobo first and then put a new proc in it down the road. I've also read stuff in forums suggesting that the power supply for the Wind-Tunnel had way more juice than the system currently demands. Can anyone out there do the math on this? We know how much power the PPC 970 eats. Can we figure out how much heat the Wind-Tunnel case is designed to disapate? What about how much power the power supply is putting? With these numbers, can we figure out how many PPC 970 the Wind-Tunnel case could power and cool? I've been suffering with a 266MHz G3 iMac, and I refuse to upgrade until Apple comes out with a system that really is worth that premium they charge, and a G4 is not it.
 
Re: Speculate

Originally posted by skinlayers
Reposted from /.

What I really want to know is how much this chip is going to cost. If its cheap for Apple to put 2 or 4 of these in a machine, then how much will it matter that an expensive P4 (P5) out performs it? Hmmm.... The current Wind-Tunnel G4s raised a few eyebrows when it first came out do to the new case design. These things were designed to disapate heat! A HUGE (7 lbs) heat sink w/ matching fan, a small case fan, 2 fans on the power supply, and a ton of ventalation in the back. WAY more cooling that those 2 little G4s require. I think Apple is trying to avoid the fiasco it had with the Sawtooth (1st gen) G4s where they just slapped a G4 onto a G3 mobo. This time around, I believe they're releasing a new mobo first and then put a new proc in it down the road. I've also read stuff in forums suggesting that the power supply for the Wind-Tunnel had way more juice than the system currently demands. Can anyone out there do the math on this? We know how much power the PPC 970 eats. Can we figure out how much heat the Wind-Tunnel case is designed to disapate? What about how much power the power supply is putting? With these numbers, can we figure out how many PPC 970 the Wind-Tunnel case could power and cool? I've been suffering with a 266MHz G3 iMac, and I refuse to upgrade until Apple comes out with a system that really is worth that premium they charge, and a G4 is not it.
Another characteristically worthless self-promoting Slashdot comment - in other words, "What does the label on the power supply say the max output is?"
 
What really matters...

There are a few key issues to remember.

First, there's the "Viper effect." If a company makes the fastest machine, it sells the less-fast machines. Having the Viper king of the hill sells Neons...having the Vette king sells Cavaliers...the image crosses over for bragging rights. (Which is why Ford is working on the GT40, using former Viper engineers, and why GM is beefing up the Corvette to try to match the Viper's performance).

Second, there's the "trickle-down effect" which was just alluded to. Fast new machines = good prices on decent-speed used machines. For the price of a new Dell 2 GHz machine, namely $420 with rebate, I can get a blue and white G3...MAYBE...if I shop really hard. Used Macs hold their value - that's both good and bad. The down to earth affordable Macs are beige G3s with their 66 MHz busses, marginal OS X support, etc. (Like mine!) - running at 233-266.

Finally, there's the "entry level" issue. Automakers sold base models that lost money for years to grab new buyers. Ford lost money on Escorts, GM on Cavaliers, Chrysler on Shadows, and reportedly even the Japanese lost money on some of their entry-level cars, but they did it to get loyal customers. Start with a Reliant, end up with a 300M. Well, how's Apple doing there? Not so well. The cheapest machine is the eMac. And for people like me, there's NOTHING. I have a monitor, thank you. I DON'T have $1,600. The last time I can recall Apple without a $1,200 or less computer is...well...the mid-1980s? (Yes, I know about inflation - I just choose to ignore it, since the competition has had DEflation).

I don't recall a time when Apple had such a large price discrepancy against its largest competitor - Dell, at the moment - while not matching performance. And with OS X, the user interface is not even any better...sure, the programs ARE, but the user interface is not.

(Steve should really be begging at Tog's door right now.)
 
Re: What really matters...

Originally posted by allpar
And with OS X, the user interface is not even any better...sure, the programs ARE, but the user interface is not.

(Steve should really be begging at Tog's door right now.)
That's your opinion! A lot of people, me included, love the OSX interface. I personally hate the look & feel of windows, even WinXP, which is already better than those grey other versions. Sure, the WinXP interface might be faster than the one from OSX, because OSX has some 'useless' stuff like trasparancy and window shading that takes a hell of a lot processor power. But this 'useless' stuff makes it more fun to work with the computer, and it just looks better. Besides that, I just think the main idea of the MacOS (menu bar on the top, apple menu, system prefs, column view and so on) is better than Windows, especially WinXP with that IMO really horrible start-menu. When I put a CD in my drive, I just expect it to be on the desktop, not in some folder... it just makes more sense!
Again, this is my personal opinion, and it doesn't have to do anything with the 970 anyways ;) I totally agree with you on the rest... on the one hand, I'm glad my three-year-old mac is still worth something and still runs the new system well. But it's also hard to buy a 'new' computer with a limited budget.
 
Re: Re: Re: Nice flamebate

Originally posted by tychay

Has anyone else who read the article found it interesting that IBM has chosen to "crack" some of the PowerPC operations into smaller ones? After all, the whole point of RISC was to have all instructions be one cycle and avoid the one criticism the author has with the CPU (grouping of uops creating nop bubbles).

I was talking about this to a friend, having referred him to the AT article. He's spent a while playing with embedded PPCs. His take was that PPC is an architecture and that different physical implementations will make different choices on hows to approach the architecture. So there's a degree of implementation independence in the PPC ISA. Calling PPC a RISC has always been a little contradictory to the R, IMHO :p Lot's of the original sounding cool and revolutionary ideas have had some bumps along the way: delay slots sounded good until superscalar processors came along, single cycle everything was find when the memory system could keep up, and Harvard architecture only really exists in the DSP world these days.I'd make the guess that instructions that need cracking aren't too performance criticial - and if they are, there'll be a -mppc970 (GCC) compiler flag or something that provides a hint to use alternative instructions to correspond to specific implementation characateristics the the CPU.
 
Originally posted by nixd2001


Maybe a P4 is a toaster with delusions of cinnamon?

(Off-thread.....)

P4 is low heat...that is why the wintel world puts the desktop version in the wintel laptops...very low heat but the desktop processors run a lithium ion battery down in two hours or so...not good

but there is no overheating with the desktop P4s in the PC laptops

the G4, even being much slower and less capable, does run hot but does not run the battery down too fast in the tibooks

much of the heat goes into the titanium case which makes the user get burned on the legs but at lest that heat is not in the system which would slow it down

heat reduces battery times and slow the processes down

i hope the ibm 970 with its low voltage, will be better

but it's all just speculation right now
 
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