iBook G4 ATI Radeon 9200 and Core Image

Discussion in 'PowerPC Macs' started by cyberghoser1, Apr 2, 2011.

  1. cyberghoser1 macrumors member

    cyberghoser1

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    #1
    Well here it goes, my iBook G4, from which i am typing this, is the earlier of all G4 models, its has a maximum capacity of 640mb ram, a 30 gb hd, and an ATI Mobility Radeon 9200 (1st Model in the list in http://guides.macrumors.com/iBook_G4)

    I previously owned another iBook G4, its the 7th in http://guides.macrumors.com/iBook_G4

    As you can see both have the same ATI Mobility Radeon 9200, except if it is x4 agp i don't know that. In the 7th model that i owned few months ago, in Tiger Core Image was not supported, but when i installed Leopard it was supported and reported as: Hardware Accelerated.

    Now on the iBook i own, the same thing under Tiger, Core Image is not supported. I know that to install Leopard on my 800Mhz iBook i have to bypass the 867MHz requirement from Leopard, its fine i can use LeopardAssist for that, but will the Core Image be hardware accelerated as well under Leopard as it was on my other model? I'm asking this because i still have valuable data on my iBook and hell it takes time to install Leopard on this iBook, (boot the dvd and do the install, sometimes fails also).

    So if anyone want to clear things up he/she is most welcome :)
     
  2. MacHamster68 macrumors 68040

    MacHamster68

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    #2
    core image under tiger was to my knowledge only supported in the last iBooks with ati radeon 9550 , so the last 1.33 and 1.42 models from 2005 which came with tiger pre installed
     
  3. MacHamster68 macrumors 68040

    MacHamster68

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    #3
    yes , read there and you know why
    http://guides.macrumors.com/Core_Image
    so yes you can use core image, but it will be hardware accelerated by the poor CPU and not the GPU as the ati radeon 9200 does not support core image
     
  4. zen.state macrumors 68020

    zen.state

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    #4
    You sure the later model you had wasn't a Radeon 9550? Thats the only way it could possibly say Hardware Accelerated.

    On Tiger if you don't have a CI GPU it says not supported as you know and is disabled. If you have a CI GPU it just says Supported. On Leo if you don't have a CI GPU is will say "Software" meaning even though you don't have the proper hardware it needs it just uses the CPU as a GPU for those needs. This makes everything slower. If you have a CI GPU it says "Hardware Accelerated". With a 9200 it couldn't possibly ever say hardware accelerated.

    These are the officially supported GPU's and a couple others that also happen to work simply because of capable hardware. The Geforce 6200 is an example of this. Simply because it's so similar to a 6600 and even a bit like a 5200 and has a very similar arch. and hardware it just works by default.

    * ATI Mobility Radeon 9700 (Mobility Radeon 9600 is also capable)
    * ATI Radeon 9550, 9600, 9650, 9600 XT, 9600 Pro, 9700 Pro, 9800 XT, and 9800 Pro
    * ATI Radeon X600 XT, X600 Pro, X800 XT, X850 XT, X1600, X1900 XT
    * ATI Radeon HD 2400 XT, HD 2600 Pro, and HD 2600 XT
    * NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra, FX Go 5200
    * NVIDIA GeForce 6200, 6600, 6600 LE, 6800 Ultra DDL, and 6800 GT DDL
    * NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT, 7600 GT, and 7800 GT
    * NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT & 8800 GT
    * NVIDIA GeForce 9400M & 9600M GT
    * NVIDIA GeForce GT 120 & GT 130
    * NVIDIA GeForce GTX 285
    * NVIDIA Quadro FX 4500 & FX 5600
    * NVIDIA Quadro FX 4800
    * NVIDIA Quadro 4000
    * NVIDIA GeForce 320M
    * NVIDIA GeForce GT 330M
    * Intel GMA 900, GMA 950, or GMA X3100

    The short answer is no you won't have Core Image hardware support with a Radeon 9200 when running 10.4 or 10.5. Only the final iBook G4 with radeon 9550 supports it.

    Also, any card that supports Core Image also supports Core Video andCore Animation. The Radeon 7000-9200 only support Quartz Extreme.
     
  5. MacHamster68, Apr 2, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2011

    MacHamster68 macrumors 68040

    MacHamster68

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    #5
    thats partly true ,he can still use core image and it says hardware accelerated (just means it is accelerated by the CPU and slower )

    Hardware acceleration (in computing) is the use of hardware to perform some function faster than is possible in software running on the general purpose CPU. Examples of hardware acceleration include blitting acceleration functionality in graphics processing units (GPUs) and instructions for complex operations in CPUs
     
  6. cyberghoser1 thread starter macrumors member

    cyberghoser1

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    #6
    Well thank you for the research, i came to same conclusion, however i am sure that my model was the one i pointed at, it said hardware accelerated, but i see what MacHanster68 says and it might be correct.

    Well the only objection i could have is that if it was reported faulty that its hardware accelerated, it should state Software accelerated, like in hackintosh's i used in past without QE/CI support, but overall i think its like you said.
     
  7. zen.state, Apr 2, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2011

    zen.state macrumors 68020

    zen.state

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    #7
    From this thread: http://discussions.apple.com/message.jspa?messageID=9678152

    "Do I have Core Image Support under either Tiger 10.4.11 or Leopard 10.5.7 using a GeForce4 MX (Mac Edition, originally installed in a QS 2002 Dual 1GHz)?

    I'm running it in a Digital Audio Dual 533 in its 4x AGP Slot.

    Under Leopard 10.5.7, the system profiler says its Software Supported, but I don't see any "Ripple Effect" when adding something to the Dashboard. Under Tiger 10.4.11, it says Not Supported. I thought I had at least Software support in my Quicksilver 2002 Dual 1GHz when I was running with Leopard or maybe Tiger there ... CI wasn't available in Panther 10.3.9, was it?"



    "I also wanted to share some Xbench 1.3 results, which may indicate something is going on in the graphics department between Tiger 10.4.11 ("Not Supported") and Leopard 10.5.7 (Software").."

    So in Tiger it says either supported or not supported but in Leo it says either software support or hardware accelerated. Software support means it's dumped to the CPU and hardware accelerated means you have a capable CPU.

    This is my current core image supported GF 6200 graphics info in system profiler:
    [​IMG]

    Notice it says "Hardware Accelerated" which means it supports Core Image. When I had my Radeon 7500 in it which does not support CI it said Software Accelerated" If I have to go so far as to throw my Radeon 7500 in my tower and take a screen shot to prove it I will. :)

    Although Apple states in this info that the info there pertains to 10.5 also the terminology they use like "supported" and Unsupported" only pertains to 10.4 with core image but still in 10.5 with Quartz and rotation. In 10.5 it will say either software or hardware supported. Hardware support means GPU support. Can I be any more clear?
     
  8. cyberghoser1, Apr 2, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2011

    cyberghoser1 thread starter macrumors member

    cyberghoser1

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    #8
    @zen.state well i think ist a tricky part, but i am sure i remember it because when under Tiger i saw not supported, and after installing Leopard i saw Hardware Accelerated i was so happy, and its the same card with same values :p so here is my question:

    do you guys think it worths to install Leopard on that machine?

    The specs are:

    G4 CPU 800 MHz
    640 MB RAM
    30 GB HD
    32 MB Vram on the famous ATI Radeon 9200

    I've read somewhere that some benchmarks were giving Leopard slightly better than Tiger on this configuration, since 640 mb is max ram on my model.

    Edit: Well in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYKv2qFVbCA at 1:27 it does say Core Image: Software

    I don't know i am sure in the other ibook it was hardware accelerated, anyway :p, installing Leopard right now...can't wait to see how it goes :)
     
  9. MacHamster68, Apr 2, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2011

    MacHamster68 macrumors 68040

    MacHamster68

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    #9
    if you really need leopard then i would install on a 800mhz G4 only with at very least 1GB ram , but as your iBook only has 640mb ram i'd say no ,unless you up the ram to max possible which are 1152mb
    as everymac.com states for the orig iBook G4 800mhz :
    Apple reports that the maximum memory capacity of this system is 640 MB with 128 MB onboard and a 512 MB SO-DIMM. However, third-parties have been able to upgrade the system to 1152 MB with the 128 MB onboard and a single 1.0 GB memory module.

    then it should handle leopard , ok leopard will run with even only 640mb ram but then your hdd has do do a bit more work with page ins and outs and as i guess you still got a 4200rpm drive inside, it might slow down the system a bit, so upgrading ram and the hdd should be on your leopard must have list


    and why it says on some systems under core image "software" while on identical systems sometimes "hardware accelerated" ...not a clue , as on my mini G4 it too said hardware accelerated when i installed leopard and the G4 mini has the same graphics card radeon 9200 with 32mb vram

    but no matter what it says i guess we can all agree that core image is not supported by the ati radeon 9200 and therefor leopard dumps the pressure on the poor CPU when you need core image support
     
  10. cyberghoser1 thread starter macrumors member

    cyberghoser1

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    #10
    Yeah, if you are sure memory can be maxed at 1152 MB then i'll wait and get a 1GB PC2700 or PC2100 and then install leopard :) Thanks for the tip i thought max is 640 but i viewed so much videos telling that all g4 can handle 1,2GB ram
    Edit: Lol it does also support Airport Extreme? The seller told me it only supports Airport B only and not Extreme
     
  11. zen.state macrumors 68020

    zen.state

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    #11
    You must be mistaken. A Radeon 9200 could never ever possibly say Hardware Accelerated in 10.5. I would even bet my life on that.

    It's hard to help or teach people when they keep asking for help yet doubt the proof you give them.

    I bet you $100 it will say software.
     
  12. zen.state macrumors 68020

    zen.state

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    #12
    MacHamster68:

    Nothing to comment on? I have no issue with you being wrong about something but when I am right and you tell me i'm wrong I do.

    You have your entire hardware acceleration explanation backwards.
     
  13. cyberghoser1 thread starter macrumors member

    cyberghoser1

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    #13
    Well i don't need you to teach me, i know what i've seen, i cannot say something else, if i ever can contact the actual owner of the ibook i'll be even happy to buy it for you and show you that, but i'm sure it was saying that because firts i was happy when i saw it and secondly i kept leopard because of that, but of course i'm not in doubt of what you're saying i've read tons of info on all that, i even agree with you on that ati 9200 cannot do hardware acceleration but i'm sorry it was stated Hardware Accelerated i cannot do something about that :)
     
  14. MacHamster68, Apr 3, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2011

    MacHamster68 macrumors 68040

    MacHamster68

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    #14

    sorry mate i did not say you are completely wrong , but i have seen it too on my old G4 mini ..sold it too last year but i remember it as hardware accelerated under leopard and software under tiger and not supported under panther (the old G4 mini came with panther originally)

    and maybe the last bit on the core image guide gives us a hint why
    Apple has provided a fallback option for computers without graphics cards supported by Core Image. You'll still be able to use Core Image but your CPU will do the work instead of the graphics card

    and i am convinced that software alone is not enough you need a CPU that can handle it ,
    proof ..hmm my iMac G3 with the ati rage 128 pro2 is running tiger tiger supports core image , but there it says core image not supported , so software alone cant handle it , it needs a CPU that can handle the core image if the GPU doesn't and if you need hardware to make the software work then it is hardware accelerated ..hope i made sense there and if you install leopard, leopard knows where its running and what each hardware is able to do according apple
     
  15. zen.state macrumors 68020

    zen.state

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    #15
    A couple things..

    1. Panther didn't even have core image. It didn't exist till 10.4.

    2. Tiger did not use core image at all if you didn't have the proper GPU.

    3. You tried to tell me that "hardware accelerated" means that the CPU handles core image in 10.5 and that is 100% wrong. It will say "software" if the CPU has to do the core image work.

    4. If either of you did happen to have an iBook G4 with Radeon 9200 and it says hardware accelerated then it's obviously incorrect. Either it's some system profiler bug with the 9200 or your ibooks actually had the 9550 and not the 9200.

    5. Just ask any person around the PowerPC forum with 10.5 and a Core Image capable GPU. Their system profiler will say hardware accelerated just like mine above which means you have a CI GPU.
     
  16. 666sheep macrumors 68040

    666sheep

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    #16
    This.
    The same situation is with 9200 PCI. In 10.5 - Hardware Accelerated. Curious thing: PCI cards by default won't support QE (it can be enabled by hack).
    So, with 9200 PCI 10.5 ASP says: Hardware Accelerated CI but no QE :D
     
  17. zen.state macrumors 68020

    zen.state

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    #17
    666sheep: Interesting. I figured it could only be a false info bug.

    In my experience not having a CI GPU when I was still running my 7500 my CPU performance was down up to about 23%.

    Geekbench

    w/Radeon 7500 - 903
    w/GeForce 6200 - 1127
    I know GB doesn't test graphics at all but it does test the CPU/FPU/RAM and all will be slower without a CI GPU regardless of what you do. With the 6200 that burden is totally gone from the CPU.

    Xbench 1.3 CPU Score

    w/Radeon 7500 - 77
    w/GeForce 6200 - 96

    Leo should not force CI like it does since the software/fallback doesn't even support all the aspects of CI to begin with. ie. ripple effect. Systems without CI support would be better off not running it at all like how it works in 10.4.
     
  18. MacHamster68, Apr 3, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2011

    MacHamster68 macrumors 68040

    MacHamster68

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    #18
    just found this bit here on a old article from macintouch about a article of apple thats no longer availabe now as if you click on it you come to snow leopard
    Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger: Core Image :
    For computers without a programmable GPU, Core Image dynamically optimizes for the CPU, automatically tuning for Velocity Engine and multiple processors as appropriate.
    So it seems that Core Image will use the graphics card if it can, but if there is no suitable graphics card available, then it will use the CPU. Whether the CPU will support all of the effects and transitions is another matter, but it seems that support for Core Image is not an all-or-nothing proposition.

    and in tiger ,if you installed the developer tools too ,you find core image fun house and it works even on Mac's with no core image support through GPU ...but still the ripple effect for example can only be used through a supported GPU
    and it depends on the G4 processor in use which effects core image can make and if how fast
     
  19. MacHamster68 macrumors 68040

    MacHamster68

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    #19
    so another article that explains core image pretty well

    Core Image is a pixel-accurate, near-realtime, non-destructive image processing technology in Mac OS X. Implemented as part of the QuartzCore framework of Mac OS X 10.4 and later, Core Image provides a plugin-based architecture for applying filters and effects within the Quartz graphics rendering layer.
    Overview

    Core Image abstracts the pixel-level manipulation process required when applying a filter to an image, making it simple for applications to implement image transformation capabilities without extensive coding. In a simple implementation, Core Image applies a single Image Filter to the pixel data of a given source to produce the transformed image. Each Image Filter specifies a single transform or effect, either built into Core Image or loaded from a plugin called an Image Unit. Combined with preset or user-defined input parameters, the filter can be applied to the original pixel data without modifying it, thereby providing non-destructive image editing.

    Like Photoshop, Core Image can apply multiple filters to the same image source. Instead of applying a series of filters individually, Core Image assembles a dynamic instruction pipeline so that only one calculation needs to be applied to the pixel data to achieve a cumulative effect. Applying the pixel operations associated with multiple filters can be achieved simultaneously and without a significant increase in processing time. Regardless of the number of filters, Core Image assembles the code for this instruction pipeline with a just-in-time compiler, which is executed by either the CPU or graphics card's GPU, whichever can perform the calculation faster.

    Filters are written in the Core Image Kernel Language, which shares a subset of commands with OpenGL Shading Language (GLSL). When a compatible GPU is available, the Core Image compiler writes the instruction pipeline using GLSL, handling buffers and states transparently. Although GPU rendering is preferred, the compiler can operate in a CPU fallback mode, generating commands suitable for the current CPU architecture instead. CPU fallback uses the vector processing capabilities of the current CPU or CPUs, and it is multi-processor aware. Thus, Core Image performance depends on the GLSL capabilities of the GPU or the processing power of the CPU. With a supported GPU, most effects can be rendered in realtime or near-realtime.
     
  20. zen.state, Apr 3, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2011

    zen.state macrumors 68020

    zen.state

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    #20
    I don't need an explanation about how Core Image works as I understand that perfectly. The main point I was trying to make is that you wrote that Hardware Acceleration meant the CPU deals with CI and that is totally wrong.

    Here are your words again:
    "thats partly true ,he can still use core image and it says hardware accelerated (just means it is accelerated by the CPU and slower )"

    You are way way out in left field with that explanation. It's entirely inaccurate.

    EDIT:
    Another glaring fact about the 9200 is that it is based off the 8500 but is 2 downgrades away from it in capability. Even the 8500 it's based on doesn't support CI. The 9000/9200 are a less capable 8500. 8500/9000/9200 Family info

    Like 666sheep confirmed from personal experience it's a System Profiler glitch as it should say "Software".

    This is how the Radeons actually rank power-wise and the numbers are mostly on pace with the numbering systems but a couple are off. Listed slowest to fastest:

    Radeon 7000
    Radeon
    Radeon 7500
    Radeon 9200
    Radeon 9000
    Radeon 8500
    Radeon 9500
    Radeon 9550
    Radeon 9600 Pro
    Radeon 9650
    Radeon 9600XT
    Radeon 9700 Pro
    Radeon 9800 Pro
    Radeon 9800 XT
     
  21. MacHamster68, Apr 3, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2011

    MacHamster68 macrumors 68040

    MacHamster68

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    #21
    so you are saying if i dont have a gpu that can deal with core image it dont need a cpu for it? thats wrong too
    as core image does if it does not find a GPU thats able to handle core image , core images is on the lookout for a CPU that is able to be altered /optimised to handle core image
    thats why you cant use core image on a G3 processor no matter how fast it is unless you fit a GPU that can handle core image , then even a G3 is able to show the ripple effect , that was the great advantage of core image as it took away lots of stress from the CPU when rendering pictures and movies

    and core image is not a app it is part of the operating system, but apps can use core image and core image then decides if it can use the GPU and if not goes back to the CPU if it can alter the CPU's normal function to be able to handle core image , as normally the CPU is not really suitable for that job



    i dont know get the feeling we dont talk to each other maybe we even dont understand each other , maybe its caused because english is not my first language and i got a little translation glitch in my brain or maybe i am to far ahead :confused:


    maybe we can make it simpler by sticking to the OP's iBook G4 800mhz , his GPU cant handle core image no matter what system profiler says tiger or leopard does not matter , but he can use apps in both tiger and leopard that need core image , but because his GPU does not support it everything has to be done by the CPU which might be a bit slow for these tasks or not even be able to do some of those tasks

    maybe that helps to express myself as you can even force core image to use only the CPU even if the GPU would support it
    http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#qa/qa1416/_index.html
     
  22. zen.state macrumors 68020

    zen.state

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    #22
    I think this is at least partly the reason. Do you at least understand now that "Hardware Accelerated" means you do have a capable GPU? If it says that with a 9200 then it's a cause of the very glitch that 666sheep mentions in the quote here:

     
  23. MacHamster68, Apr 3, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2011

    MacHamster68 macrumors 68040

    MacHamster68

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    #23
    yes that i did partly understand from the first sentence i wrote , i just did not think about a glitch and focused on the GPU versus CPU and thought that if system profiler displays hardware accelerated on a GPU which is obviously not suitable for hardware acceleration of core image , the system profiler meant the fallback to CPU ( as the CPU is hardware too )



    but as this "problem" thats someone sees the wrong attribute behind core image on his GPU might turn up again , i guess you should make a sticky out of that , as i guess it will not be the last time that problem occurs and somebody asks why his GPU says hardware accelerated when his GPU in the list of GPU's who do support it is not listed
     
  24. MacHamster68, Apr 3, 2011
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2011

    MacHamster68 macrumors 68040

    MacHamster68

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    #24
    so why did apple make it not simple with just

    under GPU : core image support yes or no
    and
    under the CPU the same: core image support yes or no
    as you need at least one of the 2 options to be able to work with core image
    if you got a GPU that does support it the cpu does not need to be used for core image
    but if you got GPU that is NOT supporting core image you need at least a G4
     
  25. zen.state macrumors 68020

    zen.state

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    #25
    Using the CPU for CI is not Hardware Acceleration. This is the key thing you are not getting. Hardware Acceleration means GPU support and nothing else but a bug in the 9200 system profile. The CI code in 10.5+ was built to all be run on the GPU so if a capable GPU cannot be found it has to go into "Software" mode and run all that GPU specific code in a minor emulation-type mode on the CPU. Hence the term "software".

    A CPU is not a GPU and even though most Mac PowerPC era GPU's run at only 200-400MHz they can compute certain graphic stuff much faster than a CPU because it's far more generally capable with common code. The reason for this is a GPU is build to only deal with graphic operations so it is very very good at them. This is what you do not understand. It is a glitch and nothing but a glitch that it would say "Hardware Accelerated" with a 9200 as 666sheep very clearly verified.
     

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