I have about 3 eBook apps on my iPad. Most of the books I have found easiest on the Kindle App. Just get that on your iPad and don't worry about whether iBooks has it or not. Also, I have found some books to be cheaper on Kindle 
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iBooks just failed an important test
- Thread starter JulianL
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A lot of posters who know nothing about the publishing world here. And that's ok. At the end of the day, as someone else has written here, a customer shouldn't care. They should just be able to get the book they want. Fortunately - they can. Unfortunately - it means they have to shop around vs getting all their goods in one place.
But any insinuation that Random House is "boycotting" or is being stupid, etc is laughable. Just because someone doesn't play ball with Apple's rules doesn't mean they are boycotting. Both companies have failed to reach an agreement. There's a WORLD of difference and people should choose their words a lot more carefully.
Apple believes very little in compromising. Much like a lot of posters on MR who believe that their opinion is the only one that matters. As you can imagine - this makes negotiating with them a challenge.
Ultimately - how much can you fault either company for wanting to protect its best interests? Yes - the consumer is the one that loses. But if you're going to finger point - BOTH companies in (any) negotiation have accountability.
But any insinuation that Random House is "boycotting" or is being stupid, etc is laughable. Just because someone doesn't play ball with Apple's rules doesn't mean they are boycotting. Both companies have failed to reach an agreement. There's a WORLD of difference and people should choose their words a lot more carefully.
Apple believes very little in compromising. Much like a lot of posters on MR who believe that their opinion is the only one that matters. As you can imagine - this makes negotiating with them a challenge.
Ultimately - how much can you fault either company for wanting to protect its best interests? Yes - the consumer is the one that loses. But if you're going to finger point - BOTH companies in (any) negotiation have accountability.
The issue here isn't really the format, it's the DRM. Apple does support the native ePub format, most of the books on my iBook bookshelf are in that format (i.e. un copy-protected ePub files). If you find or create any unprotected ePub books then you can import them into iTunes/iBook (and the same goes for PDFs by the way).
The issue that creates the incompatabilities isn't Apple's choice of the format, basing it on ePub was probably the most open choice they could have made. The issue is that most (all?) the commercial titles in the iBook store have DRM included and that makes them incompatible with everything except the iBook reader. Amazon is even more guilty of having an incompatible format here by the way, its .AZW format also has proprietary DRM for most commercial titles so if you buy a commercial title from the Kindle store then that will not read on anything else and the AZW format isn't even based on an open format like ePub.
The thing that makes Amazon look less bad than Apple is that the Kindle reader runs on lots of devices so, even though both formats are effectively proprietary (the Apple format might be based on an open standard but the inclusion of proprietary DRM locks it to iBooks), one can still read the proprietary Kindle files on a wide range of devices due to the range of platforms for which you can get the Kindle reader app.
Why is DRM included? I assume that is down to the major publishers and/or authors being unwilling to release copyright works without DRM protection so the reason that both Apple and Amazon have DRM is not down to them, it's down to the publishers insisting on it. In fact Apple have shown a willingness to ship content without DRM as demonstrated with music on iTunes.
Theoretically one day we might have an iTunes-like revolution where DRM is removed but I can't see that happening. One advantage that the music industry had is that once artists become mainstream they can make huge amounts of money from live performances, merchandising etc. Literature just isn't a mainstream enough force in our culture for authors to have those additional revenue streams; can you really imagine a day when someone like John Updike would have sold out stadium tours for book readings? For authors their sole source of income seems to be locked to their book sales, with a lucky few (very few) gaining significant income from movie and merchandising rights, which is why publishers and authors view DRM as so important because if piracy of their work destroys their royalty income then they have no other sources of income to fall back on.
Should Apple have gone with the Kindle .AZW format? That would have made this whole problem go away but that format it proprietary to Amazon and there is no way on earth that Amazon would have let Apple use it so, even though I think that would have been the dream scenario, it was never a realistic possibility.
- Julian
As Apple and its competitors have learned, being first has its advantages. Amazon's 2-year lead (aside from over a decade of dealing in printed books) has forced Apple into catch-up mode. It has undoubtedly caused lots of problems on both sides, the publishers not wanting to sour a good deal with Amazon and Apple relying on their market studies to determine price points.
As noted, however, competition is good. But it'll be a couple of years before the dust settles.
As noted, however, competition is good. But it'll be a couple of years before the dust settles.
As stated above - the other big issue is all the other competitors have a way of reading their formats on other devices.
Try and read an iBook on a non-Apple device.
Nope. Amazon books are restricted to their app, ditto iBooks.
The way I see it, whenever I'm at someone's house they invariably have hardcovers stacked on a bookshelf separate from paperbacks, so there's been some subconscious classification going on for decades. So what if some of my books are from Amazon and others from iBooks?
Just as poloponies said, it's all about licensing.
Apple can't just "choose" to sell a book - Apple and the publisher have to both agree on the terms to do so. Random House and Apple haven't agreed on the licensing terms. Random House has agreed with Amazon, Barnes & Noble, & Borders.
It is NOT a deal on just one book, but on an umbrella licensing with the publisher for all of their eBooks. No political motivations (because you know, Steve Jobs is really trying to manipulate UK politics), no choosing to avoid this one book, none of that.
The "Sesame Street level of clarity" here is that two business need to agree on licensing terms and they didn't. If you want to blame one or the other for that, go right ahead. That's fine. But to claim that Apple is specifically avoiding this book or claiming that it is not a licensing disagreement is... well, to be generous... missing some facts.
Regardless of who is to blame, the silver lining is that we are arguing about eBooks here....not physical books. The whole Publisher versus Apple/Amazon/B&N/Borders argument is being challenged in our generation as authors are, for the first time, able to actively ENGAGE in deciding who gets their books, in what formats and at what price points. THAT is the paradigm shift that we can all, as avid readers, agree is changing things for the better.
The days of relevancy of what the publishing house does/doesn't want to do may eventually evaporate entirely as authors have the ability to self-publish without investing their life savings in doing so. Arguably, it will also mean we may have to suffer through some less-than-perfectly-edited books as well. But I think the benefits outweigh the negatives.
In a world not too many months/years from now...Tony Blair could publish directly to our eReaders and cut Random House and Apple both out of the equation entirely, other than by paying them a commission on every sale for hosting the distribution model.
Gizmodo did a little blurb article on this very topic just a few days ago in fact: http://gizmodo.com/5629812/5-reasons-why-best+selling-authors-are-going-direct
The days of relevancy of what the publishing house does/doesn't want to do may eventually evaporate entirely as authors have the ability to self-publish without investing their life savings in doing so. Arguably, it will also mean we may have to suffer through some less-than-perfectly-edited books as well. But I think the benefits outweigh the negatives.
In a world not too many months/years from now...Tony Blair could publish directly to our eReaders and cut Random House and Apple both out of the equation entirely, other than by paying them a commission on every sale for hosting the distribution model.
Gizmodo did a little blurb article on this very topic just a few days ago in fact: http://gizmodo.com/5629812/5-reasons-why-best+selling-authors-are-going-direct
It's absurd to blame this on Apple. It's well known and fully documented that the publishers are doing this.
It's a power play in progress. The music guys and the book guys are afraid that Apple will have too much control over their products -- that's what happens when you make the best devices on the planet: people buy them and you become dominant.
Apple would love to have every book ever printed available. This ain't the app store where you can potential damage a device with a rogue app. These are books. Heck, you can buy porn on the iBookstore! So to blame the lack of a book on Apple is to be clueless.
It's a power play in progress. The music guys and the book guys are afraid that Apple will have too much control over their products -- that's what happens when you make the best devices on the planet: people buy them and you become dominant.
Apple would love to have every book ever printed available. This ain't the app store where you can potential damage a device with a rogue app. These are books. Heck, you can buy porn on the iBookstore! So to blame the lack of a book on Apple is to be clueless.
Wrong. The bottom line is that both parties have failed to reach an agreement. Apple would love to carry any and every book on THEIR terms. And publishers have their OWN terms.
It's absurd to put the blame on EITHER side. Sometimes companies simply reach an impasse.
Wrong. Some media companies are refusing anything Apple offers because they are trying to weaken Apple in order to create more competitors to Apple.
I'm trying to work out what you mean by this.
Are you saying the files are coded (DRM) so they cannot be used on each others reading app, or the files are not findable in the 1st place.
I strongly disagree with data (a book) not being your's to view on things in the future.
The bottom line is that Apple has decided to offer publishers the opportunity to sell their books via the agency model, which some publishers like a lot and others don't like at all. And some don't like, but they like Amazon's attempt to corner the ebook market by selling bestsellers at a loss even less, (Yes, really, those hardcover best sellers they're selling for 9.99 they actually pay half the cover price for).
In the short term publishers make more money selling ebooks on Amazon, but in the long term they could very well make more money selling them via the agency model, like Apple is using.
Since you keep asserting this - please provide a link or other evidence besides your conspiracy theory personal opinions.
The Random House issue is well known, no links needed. They don't want the agency model that would allow them to set their own prices (go figure), because they are in bed with Amazon.
The music company issues are also well known, no links needed. They don't like Apple's power.
No, it means you are not bothering to look up what you should have known about before you started posting things that don't fit the facts the rest of us know about.
Well since I've worked in the publishing industry for close to a decade - let's just propose that I might know more about this than you do. Which is why I was asking for specific examples of where you got your information. I'm not going to refute or debate something based on your opinion (only). But if you had a link - any link at all - I could address what you are reading or THINK you are reading.
The onus is on you since you're stating something as fact to show that it is indeed a fact and not opinion.
Piggie said:
It is possible to find the files, either through jailbreak apps or external apps. But iBooks cannot open a Kindle book and the Kindle app cannot open an iBooks book*, even if you can get the file and try to put it into the iBooks or Kindle app. You have to get the file, strip the DRM and convert it to the appropriate format, and then you can read it in the other app.
(*And neither iBooks nor Kindle can open DRM-protected Kobo, B&N, public library, etc., etc., books, not without DRM stripping and possibly format conversion.)
I also have a very strong interest in publishing, and this is the first I have heard of this approach.
The agency model as proposed by Apple apparently contains a clause to the effect that the publisher cannot allow the same book to be sold for less elsewhere. This means that if a publisher agrees to this they have to set the price throughout the market.
If anyone in the publishing industry is worrying about control, it is not Apple that is the concern, it is Amazon. The fact that one of the largest publishers deems the deal Apple is offering to be worse than the possible stranglehold Amazon have...
Anyway, obviously I just don't know the facts, humour me and give us some links. I'm fascinated at what I'm missing, and obviously I'm just hanging with the wrong publishing / ebook crowd.
I do not work in publishing, so if those of you who do are saying I have the facts wrong, I will accept that. My apologies. I know what I've read, and I've put it down as intransigence on the part of Random House. If there are indeed control issues on Apple's part that a disinterested party could construe as unfair, then your points are correct and I was wrong.
Aside from DRM (which applies differently to Kindle and iBooks format) iBooks reads epub and pdf files. Both are "open" formats absent some sort of DRM. Sony's readers, for example, also use epub, as do a couple of lesser-known ereaders. Kindle, on the other hand has a proprietary azw format. Even without DRM only Kindle hardware/software reads azw (and pdf).
So unless you employ some DRM-stripping methodology and then use some conversion program, then iBooks content and Kindle content remain locked to their respective platforms.
Not sure about your last sentence - I don't recall saying you don't have a right to view your purchased e-media in the future.
I suspect that the last sentence was inspired by the infamous (and hugely ironic) Kindle 1984 incident when Amazon had an issue with the rights on various George Orwell novels, including 1984, so to solve it they remotely uninstalled all copies of the novel that Kindle users had already purchased and downloaded to their devices. Ouch!poloponies said:
Here's a link: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html
- Julian
To be fair, they deleted and refunded the purchases. Sloppily handled but it wasn't their decision.