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3460169

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Original poster
Feb 18, 2009
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This is Ventura-specific. I have a M2 MBA as well on Monterey and this behavior doesn't happen there.

Last night I performed a clean install of macOS 13.2 on my Mac Studio and set it up as new. I of course use iCloud and its storage facilities and have for years and have become dependent on it so the behavior of iCloud Drive is one of the first things I checked.

Out-of-Box, Ventura's iCloud settings default to "Optimize Mac Storage" turned on (This is in Settings -> Apple ID -> iCloud) and the behavior I'll describe doesn't seem affected by Optimization being on or off.

If you've used iCloud Drive you may know that sometimes files and folders have a little "cloud with a down arrow" icon. If you click that cloud icon macOS should download that things contents. Well, it doesn't, or so it makes you believe.


1675026071096.png



1675026116951.png



This only seems to happen for folders specifically.
Furthermore the folders are actually there on the filesystem even if they are labeled with this cloud-arrow icon.

Example: on the other Mac I created an empty folder called "zz" in my Desktop folder which is in iCloud Drive. You can see the cloud-arrow icon thing here in Finder, and the directory listing in the purple window above it via the command shell, proving the "zz" folder is there.

1675026651056.png




One way to see this in action is to have two devices using iCloud Drive -- one of them being a Mac with Ventura. Create a folder on the other device in iCloud Drive and then look for that folder on the Ventura Mac. I'm curious if you can reproduce the same thing.

If you do happen to click that cloud-arrow icon, it may or may not go away and it still elicits the error message. As with my "zz" example, I clicked the cloud-arrow and it went away but still elicited this message.

1675026803509.png



Anyway, again just curious to see if anyone else has run into this here. I didn't find any MR threads on the subject but there is another thread over at Apple's discussions boards from middle last year.



Right now I'm sticking with iCloud optimization turned off and expecting everything to sync from the cloud to my local, thereby if I see that cloud-arrow icon I'll know it's a lie. ;-)
 

svenmany

macrumors demi-god
Jun 19, 2011
2,063
1,338
I would have guessed that the down arrow means the contents of the folder need to be downloaded, not the folder itself.

I just did a quick test, creating a folder at the root of iCloud drive on my Big Sur machine. The folder appeared on my Ventura machine, but without the down arrow.

But, honestly, I've never quite figured out what the icons mean. I really have to look at the tooltip when I mouse over the icon to figure out what it's trying to say.

On Ventura, when I hover over an unadorned cloud, the tooltip reads "Downloaded". The exact same icon on my Big Sur computer has the hover reading "Waiting to Update". I just dragged a file into an iCloud folder on Big Sur and the cloud icon showed with the hover reading "Uploading". So, just now during my brief experimentation, I've seen the same cloud icon with three different meanings.

After putting a file into my iCloud drive on Big Sur, the cloud with a down arrow appeared on my Ventura computer, on the folder which was to get the file. The hover read "downloading" and the arrow disappeared once the download finished. When I clicked "remove download" the arrow reappeared. Now the hover reads "in iCloud". So now I've seen that same arrow icon mean two different things.

I've just come to ignore the icons since I generally don't trust them.
 

svenmany

macrumors demi-god
Jun 19, 2011
2,063
1,338
Too funny...

I just deleted that test folder from iCloud drive on Ventura. It's now in my trash with the cloud there saying "Waiting to Update". This whole topic is beyond Apple's abilities to get right.
 

3460169

Cancelled
Original poster
Feb 18, 2009
1,293
212
I would have guessed that the down arrow means the contents of the folder need to be downloaded, not the folder itself.

...

That's a fair point and I think that's true -- but then why would an empty folder that's already there on the filesystem have a download icon? (Answer: bug). Further, whether or not the folder is empty, why would clicking that icon to download elicit the absurd message about checking the Internet connection? Some lazy programming we have here from Apple.

In Finder in List View you can add a column to the view which is "iCloud Status". Things with a Cloud icon will have tooltip "Downloaded" (aka, in the cloud and synced to local); things with Cloud-downarrow will have tooltip "In iCloud" meaning that they out there in cloud space and downloadable. In Ventura clicking that icon yields the absurd "Check your Internet Connection" lazy error box, but after that it goes to a cloud (downloaded) status.

BTW only the folders (directories) show this weirdness. Actual files seem fine. If I create a folder with a single file on it from another machine, when viewed in List View with the iCloud Status column the file will in fact be downloaded while the folder itself thinks itself is not. Clicking the folder's status elicits the popup error of course, but then it clears up. I also noticed that simply moving around in finder will often straighten out the statuses also, e.g., in List View expand and collapses the directory trees and it should straight those iCloud status icons out.

The reason I posted this at all is because Monterey was fine by comparison and I noticed this behavior within minutes of finishing the initial install of Ventura. Is it an issue? For me, anecdotally, no. However it could pose a problem for other users who actually use Ventura with Optimize Mac Storage enabled and need to know, by way of that iCloud Status, what items are downloaded or not. They will find themselves annoyed AF when they have to actually click on that cloud download icon and constantly be presented with a useless error box that may or may not actually be downloading their stuff.

I left a bug report with Apple through their feedback facility ( https://www.apple.com/feedback/macos.html ) and will commence ignoring the behavior. ;-)
 

HDFan

Contributor
Jun 30, 2007
6,700
2,928
Out-of-Box, Ventura's iCloud settings default to "Optimize Mac Storage" turned on

Just did an in-place upgrade to Ventura. Optimize Mac Storage was off.

if you've used iCloud Drive you may know that sometimes files and folders have a little "cloud with a down arrow" icon. If you click that cloud icon macOS should download that things contents.

Since I don't optimize storage the down arrow means, I think, that the local copy is being uploaded to iCloud. But that's irrelevant to your question.

 

TorbenIbsen

macrumors regular
Feb 22, 2021
176
146
That's a fair point and I think that's true -- but then why would an empty folder that's already there on the filesystem have a download icon? (Answer: bug). Further, whether or not the folder is empty, why would clicking that icon to download elicit the absurd message about checking the Internet connection? Some lazy programming we have here from Apple.

In Finder in List View you can add a column to the view which is "iCloud Status". Things with a Cloud icon will have tooltip "Downloaded" (aka, in the cloud and synced to local); things with Cloud-downarrow will have tooltip "In iCloud" meaning that they out there in cloud space and downloadable. In Ventura clicking that icon yields the absurd "Check your Internet Connection" lazy error box, but after that it goes to a cloud (downloaded) status.

BTW only the folders (directories) show this weirdness. Actual files seem fine. If I create a folder with a single file on it from another machine, when viewed in List View with the iCloud Status column the file will in fact be downloaded while the folder itself thinks itself is not. Clicking the folder's status elicits the popup error of course, but then it clears up. I also noticed that simply moving around in finder will often straighten out the statuses also, e.g., in List View expand and collapses the directory trees and it should straight those iCloud status icons out.

The reason I posted this at all is because Monterey was fine by comparison and I noticed this behavior within minutes of finishing the initial install of Ventura. Is it an issue? For me, anecdotally, no. However it could pose a problem for other users who actually use Ventura with Optimize Mac Storage enabled and need to know, by way of that iCloud Status, what items are downloaded or not. They will find themselves annoyed AF when they have to actually click on that cloud download icon and constantly be presented with a useless error box that may or may not actually be downloading their stuff.

I left a bug report with Apple through their feedback facility ( https://www.apple.com/feedback/macos.html ) and will commence ignoring the behavior. ;-)
Just a thought. A folder must have some meta data just like a file. Can it be the case that the mysterious cloud icon somehow reflects the status for those metadata and not (just) for the existence of the folder? - Of course the error message is insane and some programmer and some tester should be a bit ashamed of that. But the rest might be OK.
 

3460169

Cancelled
Original poster
Feb 18, 2009
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212
Just a thought. A folder must have some meta data just like a file. Can it be the case that the mysterious cloud icon somehow reflects the status for those metadata and not (just) for the existence of the folder? - Of course the error message is insane and some programmer and some tester should be a bit ashamed of that. But the rest might be OK.

Yes at the filesystem level they have extended attributes which are prevalent throughout files and directories on macOS filesystems. It's an idea worth exploring further later today after Monday work interference. ;-)
 
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svenmany

macrumors demi-god
Jun 19, 2011
2,063
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That's a fair point and I think that's true -- but then why would an empty folder that's already there on the filesystem have a download icon? (Answer: bug). Further, whether or not the folder is empty, why would clicking that icon to download elicit the absurd message about checking the Internet connection? Some lazy programming we have here from Apple.

Yeah, bugs. I encounter at least a couple of bugs a day with Ventura. Yesterday, I had to restart System Settings when it became unresponsive. It's kind of appalling how bad they are at software.

Certainly icons on folders is harder to interpret than those on files. The icon on a folder has to represent the state of all the files within it and at arbitrary depth. Any file not downloaded at some deep point in the filesystem has to trigger every folder above it to have a down arrow. But, I very often see some icon on a folder that suggests the state of some file within it and there's no such file having that state. I think I've seen "Waiting to Upload" for that. I always wonder what is waiting to upload.

Just a thought. A folder must have some meta data just like a file.

Sounds reasonable. At the terminal you can inspect the metadata with the "mdls" command. The man page is incomplete (as usual), but it might be self-explanatory.

I did a quick test, not with metadata, but simple permissions on a folder. I made a change and noticed that the change did not propagate to my other computer. Seems like another bug. I had thought that would cause a download arrow to appear, but it didn't.
 

3460169

Cancelled
Original poster
Feb 18, 2009
1,293
212
Just did an in-place upgrade to Ventura. Optimize Mac Storage was off.

Did your prior macOS installation have such optimization turned off?

I did not perform an upgrade. I did a clean install and set up as new as noted in the OP.

Since I don't optimize storage the down arrow means, I think, that the local copy is being uploaded to iCloud. But that's irrelevant to your question.

Uploads that are happening in progress actually show a third icon -- an uparrow cloud :)

The down arrow thing means it's "in iCloud" and it's downloadable but it's already there. It's just a bug and only happens on folders and is only a nuisance, I think, if optimize storage is on and storage is actually in short supply.

Example showing the misleading icon and tooltip.
 

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svenmany

macrumors demi-god
Jun 19, 2011
2,063
1,338
Sounds reasonable. At the terminal you can inspect the metadata with the "mdls" command. The man page is incomplete (as usual), but it might be self-explanatory.

Sorry, I think I got metadata confused with extended attributes. Assume I don't know what I'm talking about on that one :)
 

HDFan

Contributor
Jun 30, 2007
6,700
2,928
Did your prior macOS installation have such optimization turned off?

I did not perform an upgrade. I did a clean install and set up as new as noted in the OP.

Same. However it is possible migration assistant may have carried it over from system settings somehow.

The down arrow thing means it's "in iCloud" and it's downloadable but it's already there. It's just a bug and only happens on folders and is only a nuisance, I think, if optimize storage is on and storage is actually in short supply.

Thanks. Guess I never see it since have enough space so iCloud downloads not necessary.
 

svenmany

macrumors demi-god
Jun 19, 2011
2,063
1,338
Thanks. Guess I never see it since have enough space so iCloud downloads not necessary.

I’ve seen it also mean “downloading”. So, if you have a large file added from a different device, you could see that arrow for a while. I wish Apple had chosen a different icon for that since clicking on it during that long download would have no effect and might interpreted as a problem.
 
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Coltaine

macrumors 6502
Jan 7, 2012
314
331
I have run into the same issue, however, it started on Monterey for me and has persisted through all updates of macOS Ventura up to the current version 13.2.1 (22D68).
Storage Optimization is not and has never been turned on.
I am running into this issue on my M1 MacBook Pro and my M1 Mac Studio.

As far as my knowledge allows, I have made sure that all files and folders are perfectly in synch.
Still on some folders I get the "In iCloud" icon with the little down arrow and clicking on it tells me that I have no internet connection, even though files in the folders synch perfectly and are up to date.
Curiously, on the M1 MacBook Pro two folder show the cloud icon with the continous line (not the dotted line), but hovering over it tells me "waiting for upload". Again, the files in these folders are synching perfectly and are completely up to date as far as I can tell.

So, I too, suppose that the iCloud Drive status icons themselves must be buggy and not the synch process itself.
But it kind of makes me uneasy, because I am relying on iCloud synching correctly.

I am going to file a bug report with Apple, too.

If any news come up, I would be grateful for an update in this thread.
 

3460169

Cancelled
Original poster
Feb 18, 2009
1,293
212
I have run into the same issue, however, it started on Monterey for me and has persisted through all updates of macOS Ventura up to the current version 13.2.1 (22D68).
Storage Optimization is not and has never been turned on.
I am running into this issue on my M1 MacBook Pro and my M1 Mac Studio.

As far as my knowledge allows, I have made sure that all files and folders are perfectly in synch.
Still on some folders I get the "In iCloud" icon with the little down arrow and clicking on it tells me that I have no internet connection, even though files in the folders synch perfectly and are up to date.
Curiously, on the M1 MacBook Pro two folder show the cloud icon with the continous line (not the dotted line), but hovering over it tells me "waiting for upload". Again, the files in these folders are synching perfectly and are completely up to date as far as I can tell.

So, I too, suppose that the iCloud Drive status icons themselves must be buggy and not the synch process itself.
But it kind of makes me uneasy, because I am relying on iCloud synching correctly.

I am going to file a bug report with Apple, too.

If any news come up, I would be grateful for an update in this thread.

That's disconcerting but not surprising given the historical general apathy around iCloud Drive. It seems it's been a hot-mess for ages and that's "just the way it is" -- at least this is the vibe generated by this thread overall.

I haven't studied the issue again myself since the early days of this thread's life, and of course I haven't heard anything back from Apple. I wasn't expecting to though. Best bet is to make sure to report it to them, as clearly and detailed as possible, and hopefully things like this will be addressed down the road.
 

theipguy

macrumors newbie
Apr 18, 2023
1
2
This is Ventura-specific. I have a M2 MBA as well on Monterey and this behavior doesn't happen there.

Last night I performed a clean install of macOS 13.2 on my Mac Studio and set it up as new. I of course use iCloud and its storage facilities and have for years and have become dependent on it so the behavior of iCloud Drive is one of the first things I checked.

Out-of-Box, Ventura's iCloud settings default to "Optimize Mac Storage" turned on (This is in Settings -> Apple ID -> iCloud) and the behavior I'll describe doesn't seem affected by Optimization being on or off.

If you've used iCloud Drive you may know that sometimes files and folders have a little "cloud with a down arrow" icon. If you click that cloud icon macOS should download that things contents. Well, it doesn't, or so it makes you believe.


View attachment 2150269


View attachment 2150270


This only seems to happen for folders specifically.
Furthermore the folders are actually there on the filesystem even if they are labeled with this cloud-arrow icon.

Example: on the other Mac I created an empty folder called "zz" in my Desktop folder which is in iCloud Drive. You can see the cloud-arrow icon thing here in Finder, and the directory listing in the purple window above it via the command shell, proving the "zz" folder is there.

View attachment 2150281



One way to see this in action is to have two devices using iCloud Drive -- one of them being a Mac with Ventura. Create a folder on the other device in iCloud Drive and then look for that folder on the Ventura Mac. I'm curious if you can reproduce the same thing.

If you do happen to click that cloud-arrow icon, it may or may not go away and it still elicits the error message. As with my "zz" example, I clicked the cloud-arrow and it went away but still elicited this message.

View attachment 2150284


Anyway, again just curious to see if anyone else has run into this here. I didn't find any MR threads on the subject but there is another thread over at Apple's discussions boards from middle last year.



Right now I'm sticking with iCloud optimization turned off and expecting everything to sync from the cloud to my local, thereby if I see that cloud-arrow icon I'll know it's a lie. ;-)

The way I resolved this is quite tedious but basically if you rename the folder on your mac then name it back that issue went away. It cascades to subfolders so you only have to do the root level folders.
 
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