iPod ID3 Tags Missing after Burning AAC Music

[xliver]

I'm having a problem with maintaining the ID3 tags on songs that I have purchased from iTunes.
I've purchased an album and then burned a CD of it that is CD Player compatible. After it is done, I am able to put the CD back in my computer and it will show the songs. But when I take that CD and put it in my roommates computer (I've tried to computers - both Macs) it does not list the track names or album info. It specifically tells me it cannot find them on the internet. After that, I still go to the advanced tab and try to get the track names but I get the same message that they can't be found. I place the CD back in my computer and - no problem, track names and info.
I'm wondering if this is something Apple has done to make it more difficult to by-pass their DRM by burning CD's in the sense that now we have to type in the track names and info ourselves.
Any feedback?
Thanks!

 

[SilentPanda]

Are you burning a full CD or a pick your own music CD?

If you burn something like Bad by Michael Jackson, iTunes should find it. But if you burn "Xliver's favorite songs" it won't find them except on your Mac. I believe your Mac stores on the hard drive what tracks are on that CD. Most likely if you made an additional user account on your computer and inserted the CD under that account it wouldn't find them.

At least I think. I have nothing to back that up. Turning on "burn CD-Text" in the burn options may circumvent this though. Not sure if iTunes reads CD-Text or not.

Also if it is a full CD it still might not find it if it's not in the database iTunes is looking in. Or if the full CD you have is actually slightly different than the full retail CD.

 

[gnasher729]

I'm having a problem with maintaining the ID3 tags on songs that I have purchased from iTunes.
I've purchased an album and then burned a CD of it that is CD Player compatible. After it is done, I am able to put the CD back in my computer and it will show the songs. But when I take that CD and put it in my roommates computer (I've tried to computers - both Macs) it does not list the track names or album info. It specifically tells me it cannot find them on the internet. After that, I still go to the advanced tab and try to get the track names but I get the same message that they can't be found. I place the CD back in my computer and - no problem, track names and info.
I'm wondering if this is something Apple has done to make it more difficult to by-pass their DRM by burning CD's in the sense that now we have to type in the track names and info ourselves.
Any feedback?
Thanks!

First, a plain music CD doesn't contain any information about the titles whatsoever. Second, if you buy a music CD and put it into your computer or your friends computer, iTunes reads how long each song on the CD is, then it calls a database on the internet and asks for information about a CD with titles with exactly these lengths. For example, first song 4'02'', second song 3'47'', third song 5'12'' and so on. That is the only information that the Macintosh has, but it is usually enough to lookup the CD.

However, if you burnt your own CD that is not exactly the same as one in the CD database, that cannot work. If you took songs from different CDs, or left out some songs, or exchanged their order, that CD will not be found.

Try importing one of your own CDs, burn the songs to a CD in the same order, and give it to your friend; that way it should work fine (obviously this is only to try out that it works, since you wouldn't want to make illegal copies, right? )

 

[Revlimit Punk]

I'm having a problem with maintaining the ID3 tags on songs that I have purchased from iTunes.
I've purchased an album and then burned a CD of it that is CD Player compatible. After it is done, I am able to put the CD back in my computer and it will show the songs. But when I take that CD and put it in my roommates computer (I've tried to computers - both Macs) it does not list the track names or album info. It specifically tells me it cannot find them on the internet. After that, I still go to the advanced tab and try to get the track names but I get the same message that they can't be found. I place the CD back in my computer and - no problem, track names and info.
I'm wondering if this is something Apple has done to make it more difficult to by-pass their DRM by burning CD's in the sense that now we have to type in the track names and info ourselves.
Any feedback?
Thanks!

That behaviour is completely normal. The tags are displayed on your mac because at the moment the disc was burned, iTunes put that playlist in a hidden database in your iTunes library and associated it with that particular disc.

No artist/track info is actually burned in any audio CD (although CD TEXT is somewhat an exception but it's not comparable to tag info), so the only way to keep the tags is to burn the files in a data CD/DVD, but of course that will prevent protected files to be played (or imported) on non authorized computers.

You either put that info in by hand or well... i don't know. There probably is some way to automate the process, probably by making a script or something like that, but i don't know where you can find such thing (or if anybody actually ever made such thing).

 

[xliver]

To clarify: This "CD" is exactly what I downloaded and in the same order that it was downloaded. I changed nothing - only tried to burn it.
Also, I have, in the past, burned CD's of varying artists from albums I had imported into iTunes (as opposed to downloading them from the iTS). When that CD was given to someone else and the option to "get cd track names" was used, it had not problem finding the artist and songs names associated (i.e. it was a total mix of random songs/artists).
Either way though, this particular CD, as mentioned, has not been altered from it's download format other than being burned to a disc in CD format.
Any other ideas?
Can someone try some of this w/ their stuff?

 

[SilentPanda]

To clarify: This "CD" is exactly what I downloaded and in the same order that it was downloaded. I changed nothing - only tried to burn it.
Also, I have, in the past, burned CD's of varying artists from albums I had imported into iTunes (as opposed to downloading them from the iTS). When that CD was given to someone else and the option to "get cd track names" was used, it had not problem finding the artist and songs names associated (i.e. it was a total mix of random songs/artists).
Either way though, this particular CD, as mentioned, has not been altered from it's download format other than being burned to a disc in CD format.
Any other ideas?
Can someone try some of this w/ their stuff?

What CD is it? Most likely it's just not in the database that Apple uses. It is on your computer because it's the computer the CD originated from and is stored like another poster said. It is not on other peoples computers and therefore has to be downloaded from the database. It doesn't exist in the database. It's probably specific to the album you are burning.

 

[Revlimit Punk]

To clarify: This "CD" is exactly what I downloaded and in the same order that it was downloaded. I changed nothing - only tried to burn it.
Also, I have, in the past, burned CD's of varying artists from albums I had imported into iTunes (as opposed to downloading them from the iTS). When that CD was given to someone else and the option to "get cd track names" was used, it had not problem finding the artist and songs names associated (i.e. it was a total mix of random songs/artists).
Either way though, this particular CD, as mentioned, has not been altered from it's download format other than being burned to a disc in CD format.
Any other ideas?
Can someone try some of this w/ their stuff?

It's not the same as using commercial CDs you find in the stores. It doesn't matter if the tracks are the same and in the same order, any album burned from a bunch of files, either taken from the iTunes music store or any other source will not be recognized but on the computer it was burned with.

Example: take a commercial CD bought in a store. Import it into iTunes. iTunes will look that disc in the CDDB on the internet and associate the correct tags. Now that you have those files imported on your machine, try burning them as an audio CD. I bet a large chunk of cash that if you try and import that burned disc on any other machine than yours, no tags will show up. (Edit: sorry, not true)

It's normal behaviour, it's not a technical problem or a drm feature.

Edit: i'll try it anyway just to be sure of what i'm saying, but i'm pretty sure it's normal.

Edit x2: sorry for the misleading infos guys, i guess CDDB was much less smart some years ago when i tried importing burned CDs.

 

[theBB]

When you download a compressed album from iTunes and burn a CD of it, it does not come out to be identical to a real factory made CD. When you place your burned CD on another computer, it connects to a database via internet and tries to find an entry that fits that CD perfectly. Unfortunately, it cannot find something that fits. This is normal. Sorry, I know it is not the answer you want to hear, but that is how it works at the moment.

 

[SilentPanda]

It's not the same as using commercial CDs you find in the stores. It doesn't matter if the tracks are the same and in the same order, any album burned from a bunch of files, either taken from the iTunes music store or any other source will not be recognized but on the computer it was burned with.

Example: take a commercial CD bought in a store. Import it into iTunes. iTunes will look that disc in the CDDB on the internet and associate the correct tags. Now that you have those files imported on your machine, try burning them as an audio CD. I bet a large chunk of cash that if you try and import that burned disc on any other machine than yours, no tags will show up.

It's normal behaviour, it's not a technical problem or a drm feature.

I've imported burned CD's before and the tracks do show up. Often times I will burn a CD in iTunes from iTunes music store tracks at home, listen to it on the way to work, and import them onto my work computer. The tracks do show up. They only show up though because they are in the CD database that Apple contacts for the information.

My guess is that it's an obscure enough CD to not be in the database.

 

[balamw]

My guess is that it's an obscure enough CD to not be in the database.

I can confirm what the Panda says, it usually works if you don't rearrange add or subtracts songs. One possibility is that the album has iTunes only bonus tracks which throw it off.

FWIW the CDID matching Gracenote uses is actually kinda fuzzy so it doesn't need an exact match on the track lengths for it to work, apparently not even all pressed CDs are exactly the same, but to does have to be close.

B

 

[xliver]

Sorry but...

I know i originally am the poster of this question but most of the info i'm reading is inaccurate.
First to clarify (b/c some just aren't understanding), this CD i'm burning is not to obscure for iTunes to recognize - it was downloaded FROM ITS. So they should know the music. Also, it does not have any additional tracks on it or BONUS material. It is a normal CD. In addition, I'm almost certain iTunes itself does not necessarily use ITS to gather track names when you put a commercial CD in. It gets the names from CDDB which is not run or maintained by Apple.
Also, I have actually burned a copy of another album that I purchased from ITS (although purchased several several months ago) and placed this CD in my roommates computer - IT WORKED!! The track names and all info showed up! Its just not working on the RECENTLY downloaded album.
With that info - anything else anyone can think of?

 

[SilentPanda]

I know i originally am the poster of this question but most of the info i'm reading is inaccurate.
First to clarify (b/c some just aren't understanding), this CD i'm burning is not to obscure for iTunes to recognize - it was downloaded FROM ITS. So they should know the music. Also, it does not have any additional tracks on it or BONUS material. It is a normal CD. In addition, I'm almost certain iTunes itself does not necessarily use ITS to gather track names when you put a commercial CD in. It gets the names from CDDB which is not run or maintained by Apple.
Also, I have actually burned a copy of another album that I purchased from ITS (although purchased several several months ago) and placed this CD in my roommates computer - IT WORKED!! The track names and all info showed up! Its just not working on the RECENTLY downloaded album.
With that info - anything else anyone can think of?

All the info I've posted is accurate. iTunes does not use the iTunes music store to get track information. The CD you have made is not in the database that iTunes is getting the information from. End of story.

Would you mind telling us what the CD is? Or is it embarrassing?

http://www.apple.com/itunes/hottips/

First, if you’re connected to the Internet you can go to Advanced on the menu bar and select Get CD Track Names. Chances are high that your CD will be in Gracenote CDDB, the online CD database used by iTunes, and you’ll receive song names in just seconds.

But perhaps your CD is rare and the album information is not in the database online. In that case, you can click the song name twice and then type the title manually. The same applies for the Artist and Album names.

Can you find the album on this site? http://www.gracenote.com/music/index_old.html

 

[xliver]

As both of us have noted and agree to, itunes does not use ITS to gather track names.
I have checked gracenote the CD is there. I guess thats my point; I know the CD is listed there, why, when i burn it and then put that CD into another computer do the names and info not appear?
The music is in the same order as the album as downloaded and listed (even though that should not be a factor - it definitely is not in this case b/c it is not even applicable).

 

[SilentPanda]

Would you mind telling us what the CD is? Or is it embarrassing?

Otherwise I guess I'm done here.

 

[balamw]

Take an audio CD, rip the tracks to MP3, burn using the software of your choice in TAO mode and you will never get the same CD track length back. Why? Predominantly the gaps between tracks. In TAO mode, which most burning apps use to burn CDs each track is written separately and a MINIMUM 2 second gap is introduced between tracks. If the original had either longer or shorter gaps it no longer matches the original track lengths.

Usually the fuzzy hashing algorithm Gracenote uses is smart enough to tell it's the same CD, but not always. Perhaps the CD version of this disc that Gracenote indexed is special in some way...

Just for grins I'm going to take the last complete album I bought on iTMS, burn it and take it to a couple of different machines.

EDIT: I burned this album, Propaganda - Outside World: http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=78919919&s=143441 to a CD-R took it to my iMac and it recognized the names immediately. Here's the Gracenote link. http://www.gracenote.com/music/album.html/genelect/fced060390c54428b3ea9212b523d854.html

FWIW I left in the default 2 second gap, but turned off Sound Check. Perhaps if the volume of the tracks changes Gracenote sees it as different.

B

 

[xliver]

Take an audio CD, rip the tracks to MP3, burn using the software of your choice in TAO mode and you will never get the same CD track length back. Why? Predominantly the gaps between tracks. In TAO mode, which most burning apps use to burn CDs each track is written separately and a MINIMUM 2 second gap is introduced between tracks. If the original had either longer or shorter gaps it no longer matches the original track lengths.

Usually the fuzzy hashing algorithm Gracenote uses is smart enough to tell it's the same CD, but not always. Perhaps the CD version of this disc that Gracenote indexed is special in some way...

Just for grins I'm going to take the last complete album I bought on iTMS, burn it and take it to a couple of different machines.

EDIT: I burned this album, Propaganda - Outside World: http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?id=78919919&s=143441 to a CD-R took it to my iMac and it recognized the names immediately. Here's the Gracenote link. http://www.gracenote.com/music/album.html/genelect/fced060390c54428b3ea9212b523d854.html

FWIW I left in the default 2 second gap, but turned off Sound Check. Perhaps if the volume of the tracks changes Gracenote sees it as different.

B

B -
Good idea. I think the album might be gapless and that might be the problem, i have the 2 sec gap in there. I was not aware that this is how gracenote determined the CD.
That is interesting to me though b/c i'm able burn different songs from other artists w/ zero relation to each other and it is still recognized in another computer. All very interesting.
I did not, however, adjust the sound check. I left that off b/c i figured it was since I purchased it digitally anyway (even though I'm converting)

btw - the Album is David Crowder - A Collision. but i'm not totally sure why that matters panda

 

[SilentPanda]

btw - the Album is David Crowder - A Collision. but i'm not totally sure why that matters panda

It matters because there is a chance there could be bonus material on the reatil CD or maybe a bonus track on the retail CD that's not on the online version. This might make it not the exact same. It always helps to have all the information available.

I have 4 other David Crowder albums but not that one otherwise I'd give it a whirl.

Edit: Amazon lists it as an "enhanced" CD. This really could be the reason.

 

[balamw]

That is interesting to me though b/c i'm able burn different songs from other artists w/ zero relation to each other and it is still recognized in another computer. All very interesting.

Did you perchance have CD Text on for those compilations and not on this burn? CD Text allows for some of the information in the tags to be encoded on the CD itself.

An excerpt of a recent Wired interview follows which seems pertinent to the discussion.

WN: Who had the idea to use track times to identify CDs? I know Gracenote has acoustic recognition as well. Is anything else used to identify CDs now? What else is Gracenote's acoustic recognition being used for these days?

Scherf: Although the idea of using track times to identify discs existed before CDDB's time, the real trick is in using that information to find discs quickly and accurately. For some twisted reason, each time a new batch of CDs is manufactured, the factory makes a new master that often has timings slightly different from previous batches of the same disc. (I think there is a Linkin Park disc in our database with over 1,000 different TOCs.) .

It's a black art, and involves layers of hashing, fuzzy logic and other matching methods to ensure quality results. This is what Gracenote has mastered, and is far more important than just the lone idea of using track times to identify discs.

As far as acoustic recognition, Gracenote has two types of audio recognition. The simpler one is used for identifying audio files, and helps audio software catalog your music collection. The other, heavier method is very tolerant of background noise. .

http://www.wired.com/news/columns/1,72105-0.html

As SilentPanda sys, it might be the lack of the enhanced CD data track from the physical disc that is throwing it off...

B