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...They definitely would see a huge dip in sales of the iPhone

Huge? No. Some. sure. A few percentage perhaps. ..Maybe. These JB folks really think they are more then they are. And of those JB how many of those would really ditch the iphone. Very. few. The opinions on these boards are pretty much the vocal minority of techie literate.


The reason I bring this up is that I recently heard someone say that if it wasn't for jailbreaking, they wouldn't be able to stand using the iPhone the way it comes.


Good. If apple blocks JB. They can go buy a pre then.

Less whining about on the boards about apple and a few jobs saved at Palm. (which otherwise will not be there a year and a half from now..) when pre sales drop off to just hard core treo users and people hoodwinked by someone saying javascript will be able to make all the same cool apps objective c and apple tech can.

:rolleyes:
 
When Iphone makes their next gen phone jail break proof (i truly believe they will in June), Iphone sales will drop after hackers find out they can't jail break it, and word gets out to the general public.

Devs/hackers (whatever you want to call them) will just find another phone OS to exploit.


the problem is that the iphone is a general-purpose computer, and the only tool strong enough to control what software can run on a general-purpose computer is encryption. fortunately, apple can cryptographically sign all the code they want and check it as many times as they like -- it's still a "trusted client" problem, and that's always a losing proposition.

bruce schneier explains it better than i can:
http://www.schneier.com/essay-063.html
 
the problem is that the iphone is a general-purpose computer, and the only tool strong enough to control what software can run on a general-purpose computer is encryption. fortunately, apple can cryptographically sign all the code they want and check it as many times as they like -- it's still a "trusted client" problem, and that's always a losing proposition.

bruce schneier explains it better than i can:
http://www.schneier.com/essay-063.html

Excellent article. Good read.
 
...They definitely would see a huge dip in sales of the iPhone. Look what they did to the second generation iPod touch. That thing STILL doesn't have an untethered jailbreak. What would happen if the next generation iPhone has hardware changes that make it even harder to crack than the 2nd generation touch? If they did, people would be able to make a killing off the 3G model by advertising it as (Jailbreakable and Unlockable). It kinda makes you think a little bit. Does Apple really want jailbreaking to stop for good? I wonder if they want to keep jailbreaking alive just to sell more iPhones, but not encourage jailbreaking (they call it illegal).

The reason I bring this up is that I recently heard someone say that if it wasn't for jailbreaking, they wouldn't be able to stand using the iPhone the way it comes.

Says the guy who made a top 10 reasons why he doesn't JB. I have a topic you should start "Do annoying people that make up annoying stories on macrumors just to have people post make you want to smash their iPhone over their head"....

Now that is a topic I would be happy to post in... for real anyway.
 
Says the guy who made a top 10 reasons why he doesn't JB. I have a topic you should start "Do annoying people that make up annoying stories on macrumors just to have people post make you want to smash their iPhone over their head"....

Now that is a topic I would be happy to post in... for real anyway.

I thought it was a worthy discussion. Just because I don't want to stay jailbroken, doesn't mean I hate it. I'm not against people who jailbreak either... it's their phone, and if they want it to run slow, all power to them. I didn't want to turn this into another "I don't wanna jailbreak because..." thread. Please try not to bring up my posting habits in my threads.

The thing is... I see how popular jailbreaking is and without it... I don't think there would be as many iPhones around... unless the people who jailbreak are just a very small number of people. I think the jailbreaking community is a lot larger than you think.

I didn't see how this was even a made up story. It was just a thought that I wanted to discuss... afterall... it's MacRumors... not MacFacts.
 
1) Legal = Best Buy could take an iPhone and put their own OS on it before selling it.

2) Not Legal = Companies aren't allowed to mess with the iPhone software like they could in a "legal" world. Users may void their warrenty, but that's all. They're free to do whatever they want besides that one restriction.

3) Illegal = If Apple finds a jailbroken phone on a user, they have the right to take it back. They may even punish you in other ways.

- - -

Currently the situation is "2- not legal." Apple has been making moves to prevent "1- legal" from becoming the standard. (And I agree with that.)

Many folks think that those moves mean that Apple wants to move to "3- Illegal" but I think those folks are crazy. They just want things to stay the way they are and not move towards "legal."

EDIT: Note that in the current #2 world, Apple can offer optional updates to iTunes or iPhones that disable (or don't work with) jailbreaking, but I don't believe they can put out a forced iTunes update that prevents jailbroken phones from connecting to iTunes. (Never tested in court, but I suspect that this is what the court would rule.) In a #3 world, they COULD do that. That's a big difference, and if you never see this happen (and it hasn't, yet) then that proves we're still living in a #2 world.

This is an excellent explanation...well written!
 
the problem is that the iphone is a general-purpose computer, and the only tool strong enough to control what software can run on a general-purpose computer is encryption. fortunately, apple can cryptographically sign all the code they want and check it as many times as they like -- it's still a "trusted client" problem, and that's always a losing proposition.

Not always. But I wouldn't bet money on Apple winning either.

See it's always going to be possible to execute untrusted code -- to win, all Apple has to do is make the cost of jailbreaking more expensive than it's worth for most people.

There's one really easy way to do this: custom CPUs.

Consider the following chain of trust:


1) CPU has access to secret key (S) stored in on-die ROM.

2) A first stage bootloader (1BL) is stored in the same location as S, and used as the starting point of execution.

3) 1BL performs CPU initialization. 1BL checksums a second-stage bootloader (2BL), stored elsewhere (anywhere it will fit -- probably wherever is cheapest.) If the checksum passes, execution is passed to 2BL.

4) 2BL uses S to decrypt the next link in the chain of trust (the kernel) as well as check its signature against Apple's public key. If the signature is valid, execution is passed to the kernel and the OS begins to boot. If the signature is invalid, the CPU halts.

5) At this stage the kernel is known to be trusted, and from now on, binary signatures can be enforced.


There are a couple drawbacks though:

First, there's the issue of cost. Yeah, we won't need that much space for the secret key and 1BL (which can be fairly small, as we only need to hash 2BL, not check a signature) -- but using any custom CPU is going to boost the cost of the device by quite a bit.

Second, there's the issue of writing bug free code: it's harder than it seems. The bootloaders would have to be written in assembly (ROM is expensive, remember), and thus verifying that they're free of bugs is a non-trivial challenge. Definitely doable, but still not easy.

The advantage, however, is that you've basically ensured that nobody's going to jailbreak. In order to JB, you'd have to replace the CPU, and that would be both expensive and difficult (for starters, if it's a custom chip you might not be able to get a hold of one...) Without replacing the CPU, you can't modify 1BL, and without modifying 1BL, you can't bypass the kernel verification.

The really geeky folks reading this post might realize that this is basically what MS did with the Xbox (except they didn't use a custom CPU.) As Michael Steil pointed out, had Microsoft put the secret key on a custom CPU, cost would have indeed prevented the recovery of the secret key (as well as recovery of 1BL.) Of course he was also right in pointing out that cost would be an issue for both sides.

So yeah, as long as Apple's going to use commodity CPUs, I can't really see a way to avoid people modifying the iPhone. They might eventually make it difficult to do without physical modification (which would definitely dissuade most users), but I can't see them every making it too difficult for determined hobbyists.
 
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