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I do not care for any Anti-Windows, Anti-Mac, or Fanboys of any kind.
I simply want to know the answer to a question about a common issue with Windows vs Mac.

It is often said and bragged about that Mac's cannot get a virus. After some research, although they can-- it seems as though they just plain don't usually.

I am not here to argue the reason why-- only to ask...

"If Mac's rarely get any viruses because 'There are no viruses for Macs", then WHY does Microsoft not copy the way Mac handles its OS so that Windows are just as safe?"

If Mac has some sort of secret way for the OS to prevent viruses, what is stopping Windows from copying Mac? Certainly the reason is not a secret, especially with Microsoft being such a powerful company (and certainly having its own corporate spies planted at Apple).

Is there a trade-off to this virus prevention? Does Windows gain more accessibility by keeping this virus vulnerability?


Thank you,
-Ronny

There is no secret. It is just that PC users where on the rise before, so seeing as PC users as a majority of Computer users, hackers would be better off affecting more people than Mac users. Besides, you have to realize that Windows and Mac OS X are built differently in ways that implementing things such as viruses could be difficult. Of course, with time and research, it is possible to attack Mac OS platform, but it still quite a minority...

Microsoft could not copy the "handling" of things. However, the only thing they could do is to completely rebuild Windows from the ground up. Like I mean, straight up new code, never been used before. In this case, if Windows were to utilize different ways of "handling things", such as DLL's, EXE's, etc, then it could be possible to stop viruses from attacking their platform. However, that is to say that the amount of users grow slower than how Windows has over the years...

Please realize that this is an amateur posting. I am not sure what the heck Microsoft and Apple have behind the public, but there are reasons for everything, including this topic...
 
Next came Antivirus. I wanted to delete the subscription based antivirus she was using and install AVG. Luckily I noticed her subscription ran through 11-2012 so I left well enough alone.

I then walked over to her win 7 box. It had norton crapware installed by the manufacturer and required her to find an obscure greyed out link to avoid purchasing norton security essentials every time she booted.

For many of today's Windows antivirus solutions, the cure seems like it is worse than the disease.

No, just Norton. It's shockingly bad which is a real shame given how it's bundled with so many Windows boxes nowadays.

Incidentally, AVG isn't great either. And please don't go with Avast, that's just as bad. If not worse. The number of naughty things you can do without Avast batting an eyelid is so awful it's just funny. If you want a half-decent AV for Windows, try Avira.

Unix is written from the ground up as a multiuser OS. This means important system files are not writable by non-root users. On windows, there are rudimentary safeguards intended to steer prying eyes away from the windows\system32 folder but by default any user can run cmd and type cd %system root%\system32 and then type del *.* and get away with crippling their machine. In fact, I'm sitting here on win 7 enterprise as I type this and I just went to the folder and did a "dir /ar" to see how many files are not user writable. Guess how many? One. someobscureapi.dll has its write-protect flag set. The other 3,000 files can be deleted by me. Plain old me. Plain old not logged in as root me. This means that any batch file or exe file that runs as me can overwrite, delete or modify the fundamental underpinnings of the OS. No hacking required.

Compare this with OS X (or Linux or any other *nix) where files I can write are confined to /Users/myuserfolder. Sure it is possible to write an exploit in Unix that runs as a user but obtains root priveledges but on windows it's not even necessary to think that hard. All you need to do is want to do something and it's done. If only MS would adopt a Unix layer beneath windows we might begin to see the end of the era where easily doing harm to a system is the rule rather than the exception.

Oh dear. I'm afraid you're completely wrong on that front. Just because a file isn't set to read only doesn't mean that you can delete or modify it. Security permissions have existed in Windows dating back to Windows 2000 (at least, I can't remember earlier than that). Admittedly they didn't do a whole lot in XP as everyone just ran as an admin anyway, but in Vista and 7 Microsoft introduced the "TrustedInstaller" group. Right-click on any system DLL or EXE in the system32 folder, and go to the Security tab. There you can see effective permissions for users and groups of users. See yourself there? Unless someone's been mucking about with your machine you should only have read and execute privileges. Even running as system (or root in Unix terms) you can't modify the files there. You need to take ownership of the file in order to alter permissions of it, which (by default, again Windows lets you muck about with it for some unknown reason - probably too many complaining about UAC in Vista) requires you to accept a UAC prompt.

There is some validity to the market share theory that fewer virus authors attack OS X because there are fewer targets but I assert that it is also a harder target because OS X is built on Unix which was initially conceived as a multi user OS where with few exceptions nobody is root unless they try to be.

Perhaps. I tend to believe that while XP still has around 50% market share (last time I looked), why go after anything else when there's that low-hanging fruit just sitting there. Malware authors have had years of experience going after Windows targets, why throw all that knowledge away for a different OS when the market share is still very low. It's easier to gain knowledge incrementally as new versions of Windows appear. If you look at the recent Pwn2Own contest, the number of exploits used for IE8 that had to be chained to together just to break out of the browser is seriously impressive stuff and more complicated than for any other browser.

On windows, everybody is root all day every day and a highly destructive attack is much easier to mount.

Yeah, that's not true either I'm sorry to say. Root on Windows is the system user, which you can only run as if you get the OS to launch you as such. This usually means running as a service (like the PsExec tool from Sysinternals will do for you). It's more difficult to do anything as system given that you don't get a desktop (there is one incidentally, you just can't ever see it), and it's not easy to get a command prompt running as system.

Cheers,

Snooksy
 
Perhaps. I tend to believe that while XP still has around 50% market share (last time I looked), why go after anything else when there's that low-hanging fruit just sitting there. Malware authors have had years of experience going after Windows targets, why throw all that knowledge away for a different OS when the market share is still very low.
The market share theory is bunk. Explain the fact that 10-15 years ago, when Mac OS had a much smaller market share and installed base, there were Mac OS viruses in the wild. Now that market share and installed base is much larger (around 50 million or more and growing by around a million per month), the number of viruses has decreased.... to zero. The market share theory doesn't hold water.
 
The market share theory is bunk. Explain the fact that 10-15 years ago, when Mac OS had a much smaller market share and installed base, there were Mac OS viruses in the wild. Now that market share and installed base is much larger (around 50 million or more and growing by around a million per month), the number of viruses has decreased.... to zero. The market share theory doesn't hold water.

Surely a case of malware developers targetting whichever system is easier to attack? Let's face it, if it were easy to target OSX or Linux, then people would, as it would give them a higher number of compromised machines, even though the overall percentage of users on those OS's is lower. Windows is just a soft target, one that MS have been toiling to toughen up for about 16 years now.
 
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The market share theory is bunk. Explain the fact that 10-15 years ago, when Mac OS had a much smaller market share and installed base, there were Mac OS viruses in the wild. Now that market share and installed base is much larger (around 50 million or more and growing by around a million per month), the number of viruses has decreased.... to zero. The market share theory doesn't hold water.

It does when you also look at the number of machines around today compared with 10-15 years ago. Even with a lower market share, there are so many Windows machines around that you don't need to go after anything else. Malware writers are also far more motivated by earning money today as well. So much personal information is stored on personal computers - bank account details being the major one - that they won't do anything that won't put money in their pockets.
 
It does when you also look at the number of machines around today compared with 10-15 years ago. Even with a lower market share, there are so many Windows machines around that you don't need to go after anything else
That was even more the case 10-15 years ago, and yet there were Mac OS viruses then. If the market share theory worked, there should be more Mac viruses now, not less.. or zero.
So much personal information is stored on personal computers - bank account details being the major one - that they won't do anything that won't put money in their pockets.
That same personal information exists on both Macs and PCs. With 50+ million Macs out there, there are plenty of targets for anyone wanting that personal information.
 
If you look at the recent Pwn2Own contest, the number of exploits used for IE8 that had to be chained to together just to break out of the browser is seriously impressive stuff and more complicated than for any other browser.

Your forgetting the fact that Chrome was not compromised.

The sandbox used in IE is not very effective. It does not isolate the plugins, scripting engine, and renderer. These all run in the IE process, which increases the available attack surface. The security model of IE is not very good; see link below.

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/ne...support-webgl-and-meet-our-security-needs.ars

Neither was Firefox despite not having nowhere near the amount of security mitigations. Firefox only has out-of-process plugins.

This is because the best security mitigation is to have as few bugs as possible so that you don't have to rely on the security mitigations in the first place.

Safari only has out-of-process plugins at the moment. But, the next release of Safari will have full sandboxing very similar to Chrome.

http://trac.webkit.org/wiki/WebKit2

There are other various examples that show that pwn2own is not a completely objective test of browser security.

For example, both Chrome and Firefox rely on less secure password management systems than Safari, given that Safari uses keychain (this only applies to Safari on OS X).
 
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Your forgetting the fact that Chrome was not compromised.

...

Neither was Firefox despite not having nowhere near the amount of security mitigations. Firefox only has out-of-process plugins.

Yeah, that's true. I should have taken those into account.

The sandbox used in IE is not very effective. It does not isolate the plugins, scripting engine, and renderer. These all run in the IE process, which increases the available attack surface. The security model of IE is not very good; see link below.

http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/ne...support-webgl-and-meet-our-security-needs.ars

That link only seem to deal with WebGL, which I happen to agree with Microsoft on - it's not something I'm looking forward to, especially given exploits are already being found for it: http://www.contextis.com/resources/blog/webgl2/


Safari only has out-of-process plugins at the moment. But, the next release of Safari will have full sandboxing very similar to Chrome.

http://trac.webkit.org/wiki/WebKit2

There are other various examples that show that pwn2own is not a completely objective test of browser security.

For example, both Chrome and Firefox rely on less secure password management systems than Safari, given that Safari uses keychain.

Interesting, thanks for the link.
 
That link only seem to deal with WebGL, which I happen to agree with Microsoft on - it's not something I'm looking forward to, especially given exploits are already being found for it: http://www.contextis.com/resources/blog/webgl2/.

It seems only the DoS issue exists in Chrome. I wonder if this is due to the sandbox. Chrome's sandbox may be the reason the memory disclosure is only an issue for Firefox.

The differences between the Chrome and IE 9 sandboxing could be the reason that MS has decided to not even try to include webGL. I believe Firefox is also working on developing a similar sandbox to Chrome.

The article I posted earlier about the issues with webGL in IE 9 suggested that this issue would allow code execution with system rights in Windows. This is a much more serious issue than DoS.

Edit: Yup, Chrome's sandbox mitigates this issue from being as bad as it is in IE 9. I suspect the use of out-of-process plugins in Firefox does the same. IE 9 does not sandbox plugins from the IE process.

A Google spokesperson said the company doesn’t see WebGL as a significatn threat to its users. Many parts of the WebGL stack, including the GPU process, “run in separate processes and are sandboxed in Chrome to help prevent various kinds of attacks,” the spokesperson added. Google says it can ward off lower level attacks by working with hardware, OS, and driver vendors to disable WebGL on system configurations that are found to be unsafe.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/micr...technology-in-chrome-and-firefox-harmful/3470
 
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The market share theory is bunk. Explain the fact that 10-15 years ago, when Mac OS had a much smaller market share and installed base, there were Mac OS viruses in the wild. Now that market share and installed base is much larger (around 50 million or more and growing by around a million per month), the number of viruses has decreased.... to zero. The market share theory doesn't hold water.

It does hold water if you look at it as an aspect of how things are the way they are, not as an all-encompassing theory that explains the whole situation. To say that market share has absolutely nothing to do with it is just as bunk as to say that market share explains everything.

Has OS X's security improved upon OS 9's? Oh most definitely. Has Windows 7's security improved upon Windows 98's? Oh most definitely. Is OS X generally more secure than Windows 7? Quite possibly. The fact that Windows has the greater market share and the greater number (or, if you prefer, all) of viruses is more than just coincidence.

Also, I believe the number of viruses for Mac OS Classic was around 200 or less. So, relatively speaking, the number of viruses decreased from a tiny drop in the bucket to no drop in the bucket. Viruses were never a major problem in Mac OS Classic anyway.
 
I'm surprised no one has brought this up.

OSX is basically running Unix. It's built on top of a unix-like file system (I mean, it is technically BSD).

On the other hand, Windows is built on top of MS-DOS, and the NT architecture.

Unix was built from the ground up with many users in mind. It was built for large businesses to have many users all running instances on one mainframe.

This means Unix has built in permissions and had to take into careful consideration user interactions so that one user couldn't get into another users files, or the OS itself.

yep, even any linux distro can claim the same "no virus" thing because of the unix operating system, (upuntu, fedora, suse, mandrake, and tons more) it's not a mac only thing, it's a unix thing
 
yep, even any linux distro can claim the same "no virus" thing because of the unix operating system, (upuntu, fedora, suse, mandrake, and tons more) it's not a mac only thing, it's a unix thing
Then explain why, in Mac OS 9 and earlier, which were also based on Unix, there were viruses.
 
Then explain why, in Mac OS 9 and earlier, which were also based on Unix, there were viruses.

Mac OS 9 and earlier do not support Unix DAC (permissions).

These OSs function like DOS via using a protected attribute.

So, I think it is incorrect to refer to these OSs as Unix-like.
 
Long story short, Microsoft has to do infinitely more than Apple does. Has to support more etc etc. Apple's OS teams aren't that great. They can't even handle releases simultaneously of iOS and MacOS. I shudder to think what would happen if MacOS had to work on the scale that Windows does.
 
Long story short, Microsoft has to do infinitely more than Apple does. Has to support more etc etc. Apple's OS teams aren't that great. They can't even handle releases simultaneously of iOS and MacOS. I shudder to think what would happen if MacOS had to work on the scale that Windows does.

This seems like a post by someone feeling burned that they didn't wait for the hardware update.
 
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