i tend to call those frequencies "low mids", and separate that from the idea of "warmth".
hmm.
isn't that just about separation of sounds, clarity and space?
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If someone asked you..."how do I get a warm sound"......
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i tend to call those frequencies "low mids", and separate that from the idea of "warmth".
hmm.
isn't that just about separation of sounds, clarity and space?
A warm sound is just one that is tilted away from the top end, but in a pleasing way.
Yes, and that does not create warmth in itself. It does, however, create a mix in which it is easier to feature warm sounds.
Though I'm not exactly a world class engineer or anything, I'd say that to get a warm sound you roll off the very high end frequencies and or try to run the signal through mainly tubes rather than digital and solid state IC equipment (i.e. any equipment that doesn't have tubes in it).
They say that analog creates even-order harmonic distortion rather than odd-order distortion that solid state devices create. I don't know if that's what creates the warm sound, but tubes definitely do something pleasingly different to the sound than solid state devices.
If you're trying to make an already recorded track sound more warm or your recording setup requires the use of lots of digital and or solid state IC equipment, then you can warm up the track by routing it out into a tube stage device where you're pushing the signal until right before you hear the tube output distort, and then recording that back in to your multitrack.
They say that analog creates even-order harmonic distortion rather than odd-order distortion that solid state devices create. I don't know if that's what creates the warm sound, but tubes definitely do something pleasingly different to the sound than solid state devices.
If you're trying to make an already recorded track sound more warm or your recording setup requires the use of lots of digital and or solid state IC equipment, then you can warm up the track by routing it out into a tube stage device where you're pushing the signal until right before you hear the tube output distort, and then recording that back in to your multitrack.
There are plenty of solid state recording devices that are excellent at imparting warmth (e.g. Urei 1176, EMI desks, Neve EQs, GML, lots of ribbon microphones, Studer A800) and plenty of tube devices that sound brittle (e.g. many modern chinese microphones). It's a sad state of affairs that many budget equipment manufacturers seem to shoehorn cheap, poor-quality tubes into their designs whether or not they are necessary, just because they know that saying "tube" on the packaging will increase sales.
Tubes are neither necessary nor sufficient to create warmth. (Note: I'm not saying I don't like Tubes here. I've yet to meet a solid state or [*shudder*] digital guitar amp that I really love. And many of the greatest mics ever made are tube mics. But you can't tell me that a Coles 4038 isn't one of the warmest mics in the world!). A good tube in a product that really needs it, created by a talented designer is a wonderful thing. But the next day that designer might create something equally wonderful that is solid state.
I should also point out that it is not just recording equipment that imparts warmth! Part of me really enjoys geeky threads like this, but part of me is aware that these things are so incidental in the making of a good record
i'm not at all convinced that we're any closer to understanding warmth. i do not agree that it's as simple as boosting or cutting frequencies, i do not agree that it's as simple as adding harmonics, i do not agree that it's dependent upon the type of equipment used.
i do agree that all of the above can be useful to making a good mix, but prefer to use terms like width, depth, and clarity, or refer to what's happening in specific frequency regions, than to try to convey any kind of useful meaning with the term 'warm'. even among engineers.
....
heck, i don't even know if warmth has to do with something physiological, or if we just associate it with the kinds of recorded music familiar to the last several generations of humans. who's to say that, in 50 years time, what we call 'cold and digital' today will sound natural, and all those tube and tape tracks will sound flawed?
so here's my challenge: i challenge anyone to come up with a definition for warmth that:
1. everyone can agree upon
2. doesn't use the term warm
3. leads to a specific set of steps to achieve the goal
there are many terms in audio engineering which i assert fit the above criteria. get a room full of audio engineers together, and we'll pretty much agree what it means when someone says, "de-ess those vocals", "widen the mix", "give the guitars more depth", or "the mix is too bright", and what needs to be done to achieve it.
i assert this is not so with warmth, and i challenge anyone to demonstrate that it is.
i do agree that all of the above can be useful to making a good mix, but prefer to use terms like width, depth, and clarity, or refer to what's happening in specific frequency regions, than to try to convey any kind of useful meaning with the term 'warm'. even among engineers.
....
heck, i don't even know if warmth has to do with something physiological, or if we just associate it with the kinds of recorded music familiar to the last several generations of humans. who's to say that, in 50 years time, what we call 'cold and digital' today will sound natural, and all those tube and tape tracks will sound flawed?
so here's my challenge: i challenge anyone to come up with a definition for warmth that:
1. everyone can agree upon
2. doesn't use the term warm
3. leads to a specific set of steps to achieve the goal
there are many terms in audio engineering which i assert fit the above criteria. get a room full of audio engineers together, and we'll pretty much agree what it means when someone says, "de-ess those vocals", "widen the mix", "give the guitars more depth", or "the mix is too bright", and what needs to be done to achieve it.
i assert this is not so with warmth, and i challenge anyone to demonstrate that it is.
Not meaning to sound flippant, but personally I have no problem understanding the concept of warmth, and it is an expression that in the pro recording world is used with consistency. It's just that after 8 years of working beside people and learning what it is by osmosis, it's actually quite a hard thing to put into words (just as to this day I struggle to define the word 'producer' even though I get paid to do it). All I can say is that warm is a bit like 'dark' but with a positive implication.
....
Warmth is not the opposite of flawed. Warmth is just a way of describing a certain sound. I certainly do not want every mix I do to be warm. Sometimes I want them to be the opposite of warm, depending on the music. Digital does not equal cold.
I don't think there could ever be a specific set of steps. On one occasion, simply rolling off top will make a sound warm. On another, that will just be muffly.
I challenge you to give a pithy, one-sentence description of 'depth'! Just because it's difficult to define doesn't mean people don't know what it is. Anyone who has been brought up in the old-fashioned teaboy-tapeop-engineer loop will understand what is meant when warmth is mentioned.
Ironically, given how much time people spend obsessing over it, warmth is not something that is highly valued on the radio today (which is a shame).
i'll refer back to something i said earlier in the thread:
i assert we can't *define* it, or at least get agreement on a definition. i've no doubt that, upon playing back something, several engineers will nod in agreement on whether something is 'warm' or not.
then perhaps we're in agreement that it can't be defined.
depth is a quality of a mix where some elements appear more forward (closer to the listener) and others appear more distant. further, we achieve depth through application of reverb, delays, relative volume levels, or even positioning players/mics at record time.
Well you met the challenge admirably
Zimv20 - looking at your recent, knowledgable answers I think I may have misinterpreted your earlier posts. I thought you wanted advice, but now I realise your questions were framed rhetorically as part of a debate. So sorry if I've come across a bit patronising!
Zimv20 - looking at your recent, knowledgable answers I think I may have misinterpreted your earlier posts. I thought you wanted advice, but now I realise your questions were framed rhetorically as part of a debate. So sorry if I've come across a bit patronising!
So sorry if I've come across a bit patronising!
no worries! warmth discussions are always interesting, especially because i have so little tube gear and someone always says, "use tubes."
I saw this and all I could think of was sizzlin' bacon....
But like its been mentioned before, you need a little more direction to get them what they want.
D
But like its been mentioned before, you need a little more direction to get them what they want.
D
Exactly. You can't tell someone how to make a song "warm". No more than you can tell them how to make it "edgy" or make it "pop". It's how it's perceived by the listener. Your song that "pops" may be boring to me.
Hey, anyone know how I can make my song sound "deep"?
Hey, theapex.... Ask this question over on the TapeOp message boards. Or Tweakheadz.
You'll get a different set and style of responses. Or just search their messageboards. But mostly, you're going to be looking at
Instrument choice
Preamp choice
Recording Levels (you want 'em as low as possible with a DAW, ironically)
Mixing to tape
Using real tube components in the signal chain
etc etc.
You'll get a different set and style of responses. Or just search their messageboards. But mostly, you're going to be looking at
Instrument choice
Preamp choice
Recording Levels (you want 'em as low as possible with a DAW, ironically)
Mixing to tape
Using real tube components in the signal chain
etc etc.
All those things add to distortion. Ergo, 'warm' means 'mild amount of distortion'.
