If the Mac Pro comes out in 2018, will you buy one?

[richinaus]

"basically" ?
hmm..

-----------
if your mac was either overheating or crashing then you have a faulty computer or buggy software..

as far as not being fast enough, what do you mean by fast? like, you were sitting at the computer-> move the mouse, wait 5 seconds, click a key, wait 20 seconds, orbit the model, wait 30 seconds, etc?

as in your body movements were outpacing the computer and it couldn't keep up with you? or something else?

or maybe I am pushing it too hard, beyond what it was designed for.....
you are obviously one of these people who cannot comprehend that some people can push computers hard, and that the computer can actually struggle.

And yes, my body did move faster than the computer. Amazing eh. A mouse movement shifting high amounts of information in a 3D model, resulted in delays in the objects moving, freezing up the machines, overheating. But sorry, must be a fault or bug, or maybe just maybe there was too much information for it to handle, which means I need an upgrade. And the point is there is no Mac Pro to upgrade to. Happy to see what will happen in 2018, but in the meantime it is Windows workstations for the office.

 

[flat five]

you are obviously one of these people who cannot comprehend that some people can push computers hard, and that the computer can actually struggle..

i don't agree with this at all.. srry.
i feel i definitely understand (and have personally experienced this plenty) computers can be pushed too hard and they can struggle.

And yes, my body did move faster than the computer. Amazing eh.

no.. it's not amazing. if you were modeling and your computer was struggling then you have too much data visible.. for huge models, try organizing with layers.. keep visible only the objects necessary for the current work.
these are software limitations, not hardware.. like, if your computer was struggling as bad as you're describing then any (yes, ANY) computer would struggle there.. more processing potential would only equate to more power sitting idle... no hardware is going to rescue you in this type of scenario and you should better optimize your modeling strategy if you want any improvements.. be it, lower poly counts or visibility controls as well as blocks/instancing when the particular software package supports these features..

A mouse movement shifting high amounts of information in a 3D model, resulted in delays in the objects moving, freezing up the machines, overheating. But sorry, must be a fault or bug, or maybe just maybe there was too much information for it to handle,

look, i'm just having a hard time imagining a scenario like you describe.. you've said you've lost considerable amount of money due to crappy hardware.. so what are we talking? hours of extra work? days? weeks?..
probably weeks so i'm imagining you spending a week doing something that should take a day and the delays are all the type that have you staring at a spinning beachball for 6 out of 8 hours per day..

so what's so unbelievable to me is that a person could actually stare at a beachball all week while earning considerably less money than their time is worth -- without just sticking that pen in their eyeballs instead.. like, i don't feel a person could live to tell a tale such as this.

 

[richinaus]

i don't agree with this at all.. srry.
i feel i definitely understand (and have personally experienced this plenty) computers can be pushed too hard and they can struggle.




no.. it's not amazing. if you were modeling and your computer was struggling then you have too much data visible.. for huge models, try organizing with layers.. keep visible only the objects necessary for the current work.
these are software limitations, not hardware.. like, if your computer was struggling as bad as you're describing then any (yes, ANY) computer would struggle there.. no hardware is going to rescue you in this type of scenario and you should better optimize your modeling strategy if you want any improvements.. be it, lower poly counts or visibility controls as well as blocks/instancing when the particular software package supports these features..



look, i'm just having a hard time imagining a scenario like you describe.. you've said you've lost considerable amount of money due to crappy hardware.. so what are we talking? hours of extra work? days? weeks?..
probably weeks so i'm imagining you spending a week doing something that should take a day and the delays are all the type that have you staring at a spinning beachball for 6 out of 8 hours per day..

so what's so unbelievable to me is that a person could actually stare at a beachball all week while earning considerably less money than their time is worth -- without just sticking that pen in their eyeballs instead.. like, i don't feel a person could live to tell a tale such as this.

yep it drove me mental and the computer nearly went out the window. Really though I think it was more GPU related than CPU. Anyway the whole point is the way Apple has disregarded the pro lines, and as such put people like myself in awkward positions.
We wouldn't be having this conversation if they had kept the Mac Pro up to date. I would have been out buying one instantly. There was not this option, and still isn't. I can't wait to 2018, so am looking at a temp solution in windows.

BTW time lost I reckon could have paid for a new Mac Pro. Anyway, lessons learned and moving on...........

 

[flat five]

Edit : as a side note - a colleague who does not know anything about computers, bought the latest 2016 top end MBP for her work [Cinema 4d etc] and is very disappointed. She is a creative and what is typically described as a 'pro' and got sucked into believing a 'pro' monikered machine was good enough for her. Now $4000 out her pocket.... same could be said for the 2013 Mac Pro. Let's hope the 2018 / 2019 MP does not dissapoint.

again, doing what, exactly?

just for example of differences between my imac and (2013)mbp.. this model is handled fine by the imac and begins showing sluggishness on the laptop:

i use NURBS software but for this, i converted to polys as that's more in tune with C4D, Modo, sketchup (which is the absolute worst when it comes to this type of stuff btw), etc..

that's 1.85 million polys.. (the model is bigger than shown here.. i just liked this view for the screenshot ..click on the image to expand it to see the actual mesh)..

so if i keep it at ~1million polys on my laptop, it's smooth sailing... i can do around 2 million on the imac before needing to keep the size under control by other methodology.. this is mostly due to the difference in CPU speed.. the cpu speed of a single core.

---
anyway- what is she trying to model? you can do an awful lot with a million polygons.. either her mesh settings are way unnecessarily fine for the model or she's trying to do something like make a model of a forest using detailed 3-dimensional trees..
there are other approaches.

sorry but the 2016 MBP should be able to handle most models of professional caliber in an acceptable manner.. by all means use a desktop instead as they're going to have faster CPUs in there.. but don't expect a night and day difference.. just a slightly more enjoyable experience on the desktop.

tbh, when you say she doesn't know anything about computers, i think she also doesn't know a whole lot about 3D modeling software.. generally speaking, if the computer is struggling, don't blame it... make sure her modeling approach is proper first, blame the software if you want to start blaming things, and if you want to blame the hardware then so be it.. the third option isn't going to solve anything though. (unless we're talking about some super old (in tech time) computer.. 6+ years at least)


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edit- correction
just checked and now realize my laptop is mid-2014 and not 2013 as i've been thinking it was for a while ..the imac is a late-2013 model..

both of them are the last models available with nvidia in their respective line.. for those that are into that kind of thing.

 

[Larry-K]

not sure how you can't believe this. For example I had some huge delays a few months back on a project due to a slow Mac. The time wasted was easily the cost of a new computer [time that could have been spent on other projects earning $]. The hardware is cheap. I spend probably 3 times as much on software as hardware each year per computer.

Hardware is cheap, but new hardware isn't necessarily better (nMP), and I don't know any Pros who enjoy tossing $5 or $10K away for no appreciable increase in performance, in fact, I know quite a few who spent that much and more on disappointing Apple hardware and subsequently switched to Windows.

I don't own any slow Macs, all of the ones I do own are configured to do their jobs as well as it can be done by a Mac, and cost was never a concern. There's no way throwing any more money at newer computers (at least the ones currently offered) would make me any faster or more efficient.

It sounds like your colleague with the new MBP made the mistake of knee-jerk technology spending without a clear-cut strategy. It's an all-to-common story for people that don't do their homework or seek wise council. Some of the best creatives I know are abysmal at adopting new technology, frequently, they are seduced by meaningless or groundless marketing claims from companies like Apple.

Buying things because they are shiny, trendy, or Phil Schiller told you to, is the antithesis of buying things that suit your needs now, and will continue to do so for the near future.

The whole point is not to waste your most important asset, which is time. If you had huge delays on a project because of a "Slow" Mac, don't blame it on the hardware, blame it on your strategy for hardware acquisition and implementation, which wasn't efficacious in that it failed to identify the issue beforehand.

 

[Chancha]

The specific case of nMP needing external solutions for hardware configs that were possible on cMP going internal is more than just an upfront purchase cost. The reliability of extra 3rd party hardware, more points of failure in data chain, time and expertise needed to setup and maintain, everything adds up for a given use case. "Pros" typically also have to spend and maintain their own setup of gears anyway and Macs used to fit into their workflow with in a elegant manner, with or without aftermarket config, which is where the trashcan approach fails massively.

This is similar to the MBP2016 dongle situation, yes you can have a solution but it is not cost effective and practical, for minimal if any gain in performance in TB3.

 

[jjhoekstra]

If it is as good as my beloved 2009 MP definitely. The money to buy a new MP is lying around unused since the silly little shiny black MacPro came out.

But my bigger hope is that there will also be a decent MBP. I need a laptop where battery-use is not measured in hours WATCHING video, but in hours EDITING video. Or compiling C++, or doing some other real WORK! Please, please, please! I do not want to move to Windows, but I will if next year Apple tries to sell us more silly stuff.

 

[flat five]

The whole point is not to waste your most important asset, which is time. If you had huge delays on a project because of a "Slow" Mac, don't blame it on the hardware, blame it on your strategy for hardware acquisition and implementation, which wasn't efficacious in that it failed to identify the issue beforehand.

or at the very least, don't misquote the project.. huge mistake (and dare i say - typical beginner mistake)..
if the job is going to take two weeks then quote & charge for two weeks.. not two days.

if a new computer will make the project considerably faster, and a faster lead time is paramount to landing the gig, then get the new computer.. and charge for it.

but do all of this figuring prior to contract.. don't wait until you've lost money/time then start pointing fingers elsewhere.

and hey, mistakes do happen.. even when you've prepared well.. it's just this particular instance sounds to be the type of mistake/loss that could of more easily been prevented. (imo)

 

[Morpheo]

Edit : as a side note - a colleague who does not know anything about computers, bought the latest 2016 top end MBP for her work [Cinema 4d etc] and is very disappointed. She is a creative and what is typically described as a 'pro' and got sucked into believing a 'pro' monikered machine was good enough for her. Now $4000 out her pocket.... same could be said for the 2013 Mac Pro. Let's hope the 2018 / 2019 MP does not dissapoint.

So she's a 3D artist and she doesn't know anything about computers? Doesn't her job requires her to know a thing or two about "computers" (such as, I don't know, modeling/rendering/GPUs/"cores"/memory/etc)?

Anyway, not my business...

Buying a computer because it's called "Pro" is not a very "pro" move but that's just me. You know, like the Best Buy salesguy who tells you Bose stuff sounds amazing because well, you know, "Bose, man"...

 

[Mac Kiwi]

This time I want a motherboard that can handle the full power output of the PSU for a starter

 

[Larry-K]

or at the very least, don't misquote the project.. huge mistake (and dare i say - typical beginner mistake)..
if the job is going to take two weeks then quote & charge for two weeks.. not two days.

if a new computer will make the project considerably faster, and a faster lead time is paramount to landing the gig, then get the new computer.. and charge for it.

but do all of this figuring prior to contract.. don't wait until you've lost money/time then start pointing fingers elsewhere.

and hey, mistakes do happen.. even when you've prepared well.. it's just this particular instance sounds to be the type of mistake/loss that could of more easily been prevented. (imo)

I think one of the first questions you have to ask yourself when bidding a job is, "can we handle this?". Seems like a simple question, but i amazes me how many people don't do that.

Second question would be, "If we can't currently handle it, can we add resources in a timely and effective manner?".

I watched a place down the street that got a huge contract, buy 40 MacPros, put on a couple of dozen freelancers, spend thousands on software, mismanage the whole mess and go out of business in three months.

The did have a great closeout sale, new cMPs, still boxed at 20% on the dollar. Wish I'd bought a couple, but at the time there was no need.

There's so much more to doing this work than a fast computer. That's usually the least demanding and easiest to solve issue.

 

[juanm]

Just wondering, is it as some have said? The real pros have already moved away from Macs?
Either a hackintosh or a PC?
I love Macs but I wonder at this point if there will be anyone that wants a new Mac Pro in 2018?

Maybe. Processors are so fast nowadays that many don't need dual processors anymore, and for that an i7 would be perfect.

The mythical one-processor/one-replaceable GPU small tower would be very hard to say no to. We'll see.

 

[ssgbryan]

Maybe. Processors are so fast nowadays that many don't need dual processors anymore, and for that an i7 would be perfect.

The mythical one-processor/one-replaceable GPU small tower would be very hard to say no to. We'll see.

Unless your software workflow will use every scrap of ram and every core you can throw at it.

I'm a 3d art hobbyist - the only "expensive" piece of software I own is Zbrush and an i7 simply wouldn't cut it.

 

[juanm]

Unless your software workflow will use every scrap of ram and every core you can throw at it.

I'm a 3d art hobbyist - the only "expensive" piece of software I own is Zbrush and an i7 simply wouldn't cut it.

That's why I said "many". I used to work with 3ds Max and I feel your pain.

 

[pcd109]

again, doing what, exactly?

polygons.

Well, maybe your model is not what all people are actually using for they work. They can have different instances, like textured models for simulating real world scenes. My daily workflow requires to bring full CAD machines into Houdini and apply fluids and particles simulations. At some point i can have as much as 5-7 or more dynamic simulations running all at once to depict how a machine functions. This can be fluids, particles, smoke etc. The machines alone are about 2GB of 3d data without any photo real texturing or simulations applied to them. There is no current Apple machine that can sustain my workflow or this type of heavy work, but my Dell can. I don't know your workflow but the image you showed to us looks like some abstract models without any textures and studio lighting where all the burden start to push on cpu/gpu. If i would need to guess is some play image done in Rhino. When you have 6+ lights and 4k textures in a scene your laptop will not even open that. Your laptop will break well before 100k polygons with 4k textures and a fair amount of simulated glass(think of a mall scene, or a shop where you make a commercial and need to simulate all the light coming through the glass etc) for a regular scene like a shop or an outdoor scene. So the shear number of polygons is not what actually breaks the machine, but how that data is flowing(and how many parts/objects/textures and lights do you have in the scene). If i have a machine with simulated glass and 100+ metal parts moving, your beloved Apple will not even be capable of opening it. I can show you a scene with about 1-200k polygons that neither of your stated machines will be capable to open, much less to work with. If it's ok for you, than great but do not assume that you are the norm for heavy 3d usage cause from what i seen you are not even close. My workflow and others will break anything Apple has to offer. Don't take it as a personal insult or offend(it's not), just trying to tell you as gentle as possible that your workflow might not be the only real live scenario. For my scenes i use Quadro cards and, yes, they are an absolute requirement.
regards,
C

 

[greenmeanie]

Could be software problems.

or maybe I am pushing it too hard, beyond what it was designed for.....
you are obviously one of these people who cannot comprehend that some people can push computers hard, and that the computer can actually struggle.

And yes, my body did move faster than the computer. Amazing eh. A mouse movement shifting high amounts of information in a 3D model, resulted in delays in the objects moving, freezing up the machines, overheating. But sorry, must be a fault or bug, or maybe just maybe there was too much information for it to handle, which means I need an upgrade. And the point is there is no Mac Pro to upgrade to. Happy to see what will happen in 2018, but in the meantime it is Windows workstations for the office.

 

[ssgbryan]

That's why I said "many". I used to work with 3ds Max and I feel your pain.

I'm not feeling any pain (but I am not using an i7 either).

The key for me was having enough cores and ram to throw at the process.

When I got my 1st Mac Pro, most of my software was 32-bit. Each part of my workflow had 2Gb of ram & I had multiple programs up & running at the same time (Photoshop Elements, Vue, Poser, ZBrush, Hexagon, & such) - I saw a real performance increase when I went went from 16 to 22Gb of ram. My system had breathing room.

Then my software caught up to the hardware, which is why my 1,1 was replaced with a 4,1. With the exception of Zbrush & PE, my software is now 64-bit. That drove me to more cores & more ram. I'm at 32Gb of ram - do I need more? Maybe. I'm tinkering around with the workflow (and OSX) - I have way too many useless processes running in the background that I can't permanently turn off - it really chaps my ass - anyone know how to permanently nuke Spotlight? - it has never found a single item I've had it search for - but EasyFind can quickly dig through literally millions of files in just a minute or so.

 

[jetjaguar]

Even though I doubt it will be released in 2018 .. Im pretty sure I would pick one up along with the monitor they release.

 

[AidenShaw]

Well, maybe your model is not what all people are actually using for they work. They can have different instances, like textured models for simulating real world scenes. My daily workflow requires to bring full CAD machines into Houdini and apply fluids and particles simulations. At some point i can have as much as 5-7 or more dynamic simulations running all at once to depict how a machine functions. This can be fluids, particles, smoke etc. The machines alone are about 2GB of 3d data without any photo real texturing or simulations applied to them. There is no current Apple machine that can sustain my workflow or this type of heavy work, but my Dell can. I don't know your workflow but the image you showed to us looks like some abstract models without any textures and studio lighting where all the burden start to push on cpu/gpu. If i would need to guess is some play image done in Rhino. When you have 6+ lights and 4k textures in a scene your laptop will not even open that. Your laptop will break well before 100k polygons with 4k textures and a fair amount of simulated glass(think of a mall scene, or a shop where you make a commercial and need to simulate all the light coming through the glass etc) for a regular scene like a shop or an outdoor scene. So the shear number of polygons is not what actually breaks the machine, but how that data is flowing(and how many parts/objects/textures and lights do you have in the scene). If i have a machine with simulated glass and 100+ metal parts moving, your beloved Apple will not even be capable of opening it. I can show you a scene with about 1-200k polygons that neither of your stated machines will be capable to open, much less to work with. If it's ok for you, than great but do not assume that you are the norm for heavy 3d usage cause from what i seen you are not even close. My workflow and others will break anything Apple has to offer. Don't take it as a personal insult or offend(it's not), just trying to tell you as gentle as possible that your workflow might not be the only real live scenario. For my scenes i use Quadro cards and, yes, they are an absolute requirement.
regards,
C

With paragraphs, please.

 

[flat five]

Well, maybe your model is not what all people are actually using for they work.

heh, that model isn't even what i use in my work

idk, i asked dude multiple times what the usage is exactly (you even quoted me asking one of the times) and i didn't get clarity.. so, i resorted to a generic polygon count example as that can more-or-less scale across a broad range of 3D softwares and use cases.

They can have different instances, like textured models for simulating real world scenes. My daily workflow requires to bring full CAD machines into Houdini and apply fluids and particles simulations.

..and my (computer based) work would be more likened to designing and modeling those machines.. which, i'm sure you know, is far less taxing to a computer than doing something like particle simulations.. (but likewise, probably requires more skill/talent as a user )

At some point i can have as much as 5-7 or more dynamic simulations running all at once to depict how a machine functions. This can be fluids, particles, smoke etc. The machines alone are about 2GB of 3d data without any photo real texturing or simulations applied to them.

2GB of raw CAD data? what the heck are you working on, a Boeing 727 emergency scenario or something?

There is no current Apple machine that can sustain my workflow or this type of heavy work, but my Dell can.

that's good. use the tool that's right for the job.. no qualms there.

I don't know your workflow but the image you showed to us looks like some abstract models without any textures and studio lighting where all the burden start to push on cpu/gpu. If i would need to guess is some play image done in Rhino.

right.. Rhino & Grasshopper.
a .gh defintion to grid array 10k points with random Z heights.. interpolate curves through the rows of points.. loft the curves.. then mesh it (to get to the polygon comparison.. i very rarely do actual work with meshes)..
so yeah.. nothing too complex or something i spent more than 10mins on.. i could of just arrayed a bunch of meshed spheres to arrive at a similar comparison but a bit too boring to get myself to go through the steps of doing only that.

there are no textures on that model and the 'lighting' is just standard openGL trickery.

When you have 6+ lights and 4k textures in a scene your laptop will not even open that. Your laptop will break well before 100k polygons with 4k textures and a fair amount of simulated glass(think of a mall scene, or a shop where you make a commercial and need to simulate all the light coming through the glass etc) for a regular scene like a shop or an outdoor scene.

fwiw, all of my renders these days are done via cloud processing.. not trying to say this is the solution for everyone or even most everyone.. i realize i'm more of an early adopter regarding this type of solution but it's been incredibly beneficial for me so far (in more ways than one).. i can use lower res images on my computer as well as non-raytraced lighting for my scene setups.. call for the final via cloud and a minute later, i have my hi-rez version.. easy/painless/and extremely fast (compared to my yesteryear workflow(s))

again, i'm not trying to imply "you should do it this way".. just adding info regarding where i'm speaking from.

likewise, same with simulations (albeit- my simulations are structural load / engineering based sims which are generally way less involved than fluids etc.. but these too, i run on the cloud)

If i have a machine with simulated glass and 100+ metal parts moving, your beloved Apple will not even be capable of opening it. I can show you a scene with about 1-200k polygons that neither of your stated machines will be capable to open, much less to work with.

cool

If it's ok for you, than great but do not assume that you are the norm for heavy 3d usage cause from what i seen you are not even close. My workflow and others will break anything Apple has to offer. Don't take it as a personal insult or offend(it's not), just trying to tell you as gentle as possible that your workflow might not be the only real live scenario.

yeah, i get that.. and i also get that '3D' is definitely not an all encompassing genre of computing.. you're (i'm guessing) doing animations for content viewing purposes..

i'm designing and building stuff.. i earn my money in exchange for the real-world objects i produce (and on seldom occasion.. design and/or rendering work only)... the computer is mainly used as a drawing medium (which i happen to do in 3D instead of pencil/paper).. it's used for it's accuracy.. it's used to talk to robots (CAM) ..it's used to communicate instructions to other builders.. it's used for sales purposes (renders)..
but my actual workflow in entirety? has nothing really to do with computing at all. the computers are just one of the tools in my kit. you see?

----
anyway, i don't think dude was talking about real-physics based animations and simulations and instead was talking about something i'm much more familiar with.. 3D CAD/modeling.. (with the 'D' in cad meaning drawing/drafting)

if he was talking about producing video and/or animations then i certainly wouldn't be offering up advices on how to flow faster with less hiccups because i don't know how. ya dig?

 

[flat five]

For my scenes i use Quadro cards and, yes, they are an absolute requirement.

i'm curious about this bit though..

why not 8 (or 12) core nMP w/d700?
i'm not really understanding how nMP is utter fail on your scenes or won't work with them.. while your Dell/quadros are blazing through this stuff.

or, would the difference between you using either computer be more slight than you're making it out to be?

 

[choreo]

If it's truly modular, with multiple PCI-e slots, expandable/upgradeable non-proprietary SSDs and RAM, M.2, NVIDIA Pascal graphics (also upgradeable), latest Intel CPUs, and plenty of room to add internal drives/SSDs, then ABSOLUTELY YES, I will buy it!

We video professionals don't care if the machine makes a bit of noise, or if it's less power-efficient than other computers; we need the POWER!

Same here.

 

[flat five]

anyone know how to permanently nuke Spotlight?

use it for your calculator..
just cmmd/spacebar then start typing numbers.

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..because you can type out equations like that ^ and don't have to push the = key since it's live updating.

(or maybe not.. but if you use calculators sometimes then... spotlight is pretty good for that)

 

[ssgbryan]

use it for your calculator..
just cmmd/spacebar then start typing numbers.

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View attachment 696869
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..because you can type out equations like that ^ and don't have to push the = key since it's live updating.

(or maybe not.. but if you use calculators sometimes then... spotlight is pretty good for that)

That isn't nuking it - I want to turn that PoS off - forever.

 

[richinaus]

So she's a 3D artist and she doesn't know anything about computers? Doesn't her job requires her to know a thing or two about "computers" (such as, I don't know, modeling/rendering/GPUs/"cores"/memory/etc)?

Anyway, not my business...

Buying a computer because it's called "Pro" is not a very "pro" move but that's just me. You know, like the Best Buy salesguy who tells you Bose stuff sounds amazing because well, you know, "Bose, man"...

Nope, an interior designer who uses Cinema 4d in a basic way to develop concepts. She hasn't a clue about tech and doesn't really like computers but obviously needs to use one for her job. I can say from experience too that there a lot of designers out there like this, who will just buy the latest models from Apple expecting the best. They are all doing a professional job.

I agree, and I like to know everything when I purchase I higher value item, but some people obviously don't. She went into the Apple store and bought the best laptop she could. She assumed she was getting something much better than the model she was using. She didn't and I feel bad for her buying this and said she should have asked before buying, or at least got the upgraded GPU.

If she was buying a desktop she would probably have bought the 'latest' mac pro thinking she was getting a currently specced workstation.

The point is I guess that there are people purchasing 'pro' computers from Apple as they trust the brand. This trust is being eroded I would imagine to [uniformed] customers like my friend who feel they have been 'ripped off' to an extent.