I agree it is much ado about absolutely nothing. Unless your machine is regularly in the 90C range and idling at 80C, everything is perfectly normal.
I think most of our recent conversation about how some people's temps are *so low*.
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If you are concerned about heat/fan noise, go 2010 or wait for Ivy Bridge
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I agree it is much ado about absolutely nothing. Unless your machine is regularly in the 90C range and idling at 80C, everything is perfectly normal.
I think most of our recent conversation about how some people's temps are *so low*.
Well all.....
As I have stated earlier (in this thread) I am a musician and pro audio guy. My main rig is a MacPro. I am upgrading my office machine where I do some lighter audio work and wanted a portable rig as well. I am coming from a mac mini which is kind of a dog but is also very quiet. Reality though is I never asked it to do much. I am very sensitive to fan noise and after using a 13.3 2011 i7 for a week I really wanted to make sure it was the right one for me. Whenever the fans in the 2011 would ramp up it really had me concerned. After reading this and any other thread I could find it seemed as if the 2010 15 i5 was the one to get. So I did...... And after a day of testing the two in my target application (Pro Tools) the result for me is more than a bit surprising!! In the spirit of give em the facts first I present the following............ I will put my comments at the end......
Notes....... about "data"..........
Even a 0.5dBA increase is clearly audible
All work done in 10X10 office with ProTools LE 8.03 and Handbrake
Sound Level meter = SPL-8810 (nothing too fancy)
Sound measurements taken about 2 feet away from machine -
machine about head height WRT sitting position
All data is my own work.... YMMV.....
Room ambient noise ~33dBA Temp~23degC
Wish all my nice formatting would come out better
The proTools test always have three variants 1) with 5 dverbs 2) with 35 dverbs and 3) with 55dverbs. All of these have signal going through them.......
2011 13.3" Core i7 2.7
@2% load SAfari, mail 52degC 2000rpm
Note: at 2000rpm I can hear the spinning Hard Drive but not the fans! SSD upgrade in the near future....
@100% load Handbrake default settings for m4v
90degC in 15 seconds,
6200rpm in 25seconds,
stabilize ~90degC for CPUA, CPU1 average 98 to 100 (41dBA)
Was more like 85 after 30 minutes..........
Encode Angels and Demons ~40min ~100fps
PTLE 8.03 256 buffer 3 proc 99% 3Audio tracks, 15instances EQIII 7 band, 2 Boom, 1DB33, 1 miniGrand, 1Vaccuum
@5dverbs 21% system load -----73degC, 4500rpm 35dBA
@OPen Lid --------------------------77degC 3200rpm 33dBA
@35dverbs 35% system load ------76degC , 5600rpm 39dBA
@Open Lid----------------------------82degC, 4000rpm 34.5dBA
@55Dverbs 42 % system load-----80degC, 6200rpm 40dBA
@Open Lid---------------------------85degC, 4800rpm 39dBA
2010 15" Core i5 2.4
@2% load SAfari, mail 52degC 2000rpm
@100% load Handbrake default settings for m4v
93degC in 60 seconds,
6000rpm in about 2 minutes
stabilize ~82degC for CPUA,
CPU1 average 83 (40.5dBA)
Encode Angels and Demons ~50min ~average of 80fps
PTLE 8.03 256 buffer 3 proc 99% 3Audio tracks, 15instances EQIII 7 band, 2 Boom, 1DB33, 1 miniGrand, 1Vaccuum
@5 dverbs 32% system load--------68degC 4300rpm 35.6dBA
@OPen Lid-----------------------------72degC 3000rpm 33dBA
@35dverbs 51% system load-------74degC 5000rpm 37.5dBA
@Open Lid-----------------------------74degC 3480rpm 34.0dBA
@55Dverbs 67 % system load-------75degC 6000rpm 41dBA
system barely able to handle (CPU overage)
@Open Lid-----------------------------78degC 4000rpm 35dBA
1) Biggest discovery was just today. In clamshell mode (I was always running it with a 24" LED display) the cooling mechanism on the MBP is much less effective. Once you open the case the absolute temp does go up a smidge but the fans go down a lot! If I would have tried this earlier I never would have gotten the 2010 (no worries though I can return it)......
2) For loading up the same session in each machine the difference in fan noise is really very small. Temps on the 2010 are a little lower but for me as long as Apple knows what they are doing and stand behind the 2011 (think applecare here) then higher operating temp is OK with me.
3) The 2011 is half agin more powerful than the 2010 in ProTools. ie.... 1.5 times the system load (on the 2010 vs the 2011) for the same session. For this machine the 35 dverb test is probably overkill for me. Somewhere around 5 to 10 aux plugs and six or so Virtual instruments and then 10 to 20 real tracks is where I will be. The 2011 will handle this let's say 20% load with minimum fan speeds. Done deal....... the 15 goes back tomorrow!
4) Hi Ho Thunderbolt.........
5) Yes for a 40% load on each machine, the 15 is quieter....... but the 2011 is doing 1.5X the work!! Much more useful for me to look at relative loading for the same work........
OK..... a week of agonizing and now I am decided........
I am sure many will find flaw with this methodology but that's the way it goes. Best of luck to all......
-Lee
EXCELLENT POST, Lee! THANKS!
some questions (for anybody) regarding propower's tests above:
why is CPU temp hotter when open? ... just because its now running the display? anything else?
is 5C, 10C noticeable?
you said 0.5bBA was noticeable. are the 'few-dBA' differences in fan noise in the pro tools tests pronounced? is it pretty serious for the 55dverbs test, but the test is considered overkill anyways, so not of practical concern?
... also: i like to record ideas with the built-in mic sometimes in garageband. will i hear the fans in the recording? (i used to do this a lot without much fan noise on my old powerbook.)
again, nice info!
why is CPU temp hotter when open? ... just because its now running the display? anything else?
is 5C, 10C noticeable?
you said 0.5bBA was noticeable. are the 'few-dBA' differences in fan noise in the pro tools tests pronounced? is it pretty serious for the 55dverbs test, but the test is considered overkill anyways, so not of practical concern?
... also: i like to record ideas with the built-in mic sometimes in garageband. will i hear the fans in the recording? (i used to do this a lot without much fan noise on my old powerbook.)
again, nice info!
My 15" 2010 (which i am replacing ) idles at about ~46 degrees Celsius (i live in North Queensland Australia where the temp outside is ~30-34 degrees Celsius). under load my computer goes to ~89 degrees Celsius, which is hot but that is in the middle of playing a game under windows which itself runs hotter then the mac side! As for the question about sound, Lee's rig sounds pretty intense and i can say from personal experience that the microphone is significantly low enough quality + noise cancelation i think that it doesn't pick up the fans. I bet if you asked Lee he would say his rig is designed to pick up even the slightest sound
) idles at about ~46 degrees Celsius (i live in North Queensland Australia where the temp outside is ~30-34 degrees Celsius). under load my computer goes to ~89 degrees Celsius, which is hot but that is in the middle of playing a game under windows which itself runs hotter then the mac side! As for the question about sound, Lee's rig sounds pretty intense and i can say from personal experience that the microphone is significantly low enough quality + noise cancelation i think that it doesn't pick up the fans. I bet if you asked Lee he would say his rig is designed to pick up even the slightest sound
most likely because the air has an escape bath both above and below the hinge when open, when closed air escaping up towards the screen will just help keep things warm inside.
edit: erm, ignore that.. I misquoted, explains why the fans work harder when closed, cpu temp is probably hotter because the fons dont ramp up quite as high.
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Hi there,
Thanks for the response!
1) Yes, it seems weird that temp is higher with lid open. There are many possibilities but the first one that comes to me is that the fan speed controller may be looking at change in temperature as well as absolute temp. If the change in temp per unit time is slow enough (or not moving -- ie system in equilibrium) and the temp is below a critical threshold (90degC?? maybe) then the system says that is good enough.
It may also be (as others have mentioned) that with the lid open there are now more thermal paths for the heat to get out. Again, the change in temperature over time (for a given load) will be slower since there are multiple heat transfer paths.
2) I am a freak about fan noise. A year or so ago I got enamored with making silent hackintoshes. The machines were really amazing but the absolute compatibility was never there so I got a Mac Pro (nowhere near as quiet as my builds...) ...... Regardless.... I can say that in a quiet room a 0.5dB rise from the 2Krpm fan state is clearly audible. Consider though that an acoustic guitar with just fingerpicking is at least 70dBA peaks 12" away. Using a mic that has its null pointed at the laptop one can easily achieve a +40dB signal to noise ratio. A little care and a few feet of cord length and one can do even better. Now for super quiet super critical stuff this can be problematic but how often do you need to go there? In many ways the noise thing is just MY preference. I really hate fan noise, always have......
3) UPdate for me is that the 13" i7 is going back. Although it handles pro tools and all well the darned flash content (which I won't give up) all over the internet keeps jumping the fans on --- not a lot --- but enough to make it not work for me. After doing some testing in stores (such nice managers!) I have to say the i5 13" actually runs a tad lower fans for the same load. If I were going to stay in the 13 size I would go there......... but....
4) I brought home the 2011 15" i7 2.0. This thing is the equivalent of my MAc Pro!! It is so bloody powerful that any normal surf, flash etc load barely fazes the CPU (technically a little better than 0.5 the loading on the 15" vs the 13.3" i7)...... Since the load is so small, the fans rarely go above 2K. Even the 55 dverb test only resulted in ~28% (will do test tomorrow and post all the conditions in original) temps in the 70s and 2500rpm fans...... I really just didn't want the size but at least today, this is my machine........
4a) 55 dverbs is pretty extreme but looked at another way maybe not....... depends on the composer. Like so many others I really love virtual instruments. ProTools is unfortunately nowhere near as efficient as Logic so as you pile them on the "55 dverb load" may very well happen. I just haven't migrated that much to my LE rig but on the big rig I use BFD2, Stylus, Komplete 7 and many power hungry VIs.... For those who love Omnisphere, and others you know what I mean. Orchestrators know even more! To know that my rg can scale for a while is not a bad trade for literally $300 more dollars. Seriously (since I only have a single quad Mac Pro that I have never come close to maxing out) this laptop should be able to open ANYTHING I do on the big rig (barring TDM plugs)..... now that's scaling for the future (to me)......
5) Wish I could comment on the built in mic but I have never used it.
........ Now my iphone records pretty well on the built ins......Hopes this helps others......
-Lee
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After second 2011 MBP 15", Time to give up
Hi There.
I received my first MBP about three weeks ago to finally replace the 2006 Mac Pro 2.66 sitting on my office desk along with the 23" Apple Screen. I also have a late 2009 MBP 15" 2.8 which is now in my wife's possession (and one of the coolest running MBP I have ever had) and a late 2008 24" 2.8 iMac. Needless to say, I was getting very confused as to where various movies, photos etc lived, and more so, I was finding I was getting duplicates of duplicates over the various internal / external hard drives.
On receiving my new 15" 2.3 8GB with the ACD and Xstand it felt so good to have finally removed the beast from my desk. After restoring from my Time Machine backup, I proceeded to get back to my normal work routine. It was not until a couple of days when one of my clients asked me what the noise was coming from my MBP that I started to check things out. I installed smcFanControl to monitor things and I was shocked at what I saw. The temps with only my normal apps running (I do not game) sat at 65C and fans at 4200. The minute I opened either Skype or FaceTime the temp jumped to 92 & the fans maxed out 6200.
Apple tech agreed that I had a bad build, and that they would send me out a new one.
The replacement arrived on Monday and as of today I have decided to call it quits with the new 2011 MBP. As I write this reply, I have 7 safari tabs open, Adium, Mail and iCal, and the temps are at 74C and the fans at 6200.
They have been at 6200 for over the last 2 hours with the same apps open. Last night I was stupid enough to sit it on my lap for a couple of minutes just to make a quick FaceTime call to my sister, when all of a sudden it just ramped up in heat to the extent that it become so hot even through my jeans.
Apple this morning have offered to send me another BTO, but when I asked the CPU specialist will it be better, he just told me give it a go and see what happens.
I have decided to send the whole lot back including the ACD (which is gorgeous) and have it all replaced with a fully loaded 27" iMac. I know that a new one is due any time soon, but the way I look at it, it will be at least 2 times faster that my Mac Pro 2.66 if not more (with SSD, 2TB & 16GB) and I will wait 6 months or so until somehow they tame the fans and heat issues.
I know a lot of you have had no problems, but 2 in a row is really back luck.
I have had Apple products right from the Apple II, and almost every model in between. Every new employee gets a new iMac, and they love them so much that they ditch their home Windows PC and replace them with Macs.
I will always remain loyal to Apple no matter what, even though I will be skipping this version of the MBP.
The above waffle was just my short lived experience with the new MPB. Looking forward to the new iMac 27". I am sure that it will be an normal experience once again.
Hi There.
I received my first MBP about three weeks ago to finally replace the 2006 Mac Pro 2.66 sitting on my office desk along with the 23" Apple Screen. I also have a late 2009 MBP 15" 2.8 which is now in my wife's possession (and one of the coolest running MBP I have ever had) and a late 2008 24" 2.8 iMac. Needless to say, I was getting very confused as to where various movies, photos etc lived, and more so, I was finding I was getting duplicates of duplicates over the various internal / external hard drives.
On receiving my new 15" 2.3 8GB with the ACD and Xstand it felt so good to have finally removed the beast from my desk. After restoring from my Time Machine backup, I proceeded to get back to my normal work routine. It was not until a couple of days when one of my clients asked me what the noise was coming from my MBP that I started to check things out. I installed smcFanControl to monitor things and I was shocked at what I saw. The temps with only my normal apps running (I do not game) sat at 65C and fans at 4200. The minute I opened either Skype or FaceTime the temp jumped to 92 & the fans maxed out 6200.
Apple tech agreed that I had a bad build, and that they would send me out a new one.
The replacement arrived on Monday and as of today I have decided to call it quits with the new 2011 MBP. As I write this reply, I have 7 safari tabs open, Adium, Mail and iCal, and the temps are at 74C and the fans at 6200.
They have been at 6200 for over the last 2 hours with the same apps open. Last night I was stupid enough to sit it on my lap for a couple of minutes just to make a quick FaceTime call to my sister, when all of a sudden it just ramped up in heat to the extent that it become so hot even through my jeans.
Apple this morning have offered to send me another BTO, but when I asked the CPU specialist will it be better, he just told me give it a go and see what happens.
I have decided to send the whole lot back including the ACD (which is gorgeous) and have it all replaced with a fully loaded 27" iMac. I know that a new one is due any time soon, but the way I look at it, it will be at least 2 times faster that my Mac Pro 2.66 if not more (with SSD, 2TB & 16GB) and I will wait 6 months or so until somehow they tame the fans and heat issues.
I know a lot of you have had no problems, but 2 in a row is really back luck.
I have had Apple products right from the Apple II, and almost every model in between. Every new employee gets a new iMac, and they love them so much that they ditch their home Windows PC and replace them with Macs.
I will always remain loyal to Apple no matter what, even though I will be skipping this version of the MBP.
The above waffle was just my short lived experience with the new MPB. Looking forward to the new iMac 27". I am sure that it will be an normal experience once again.
As someone else pointed out. Every revision has heat complaints. Ditto for thermal paste applications.
2010 MBP Heat question
MBP reached 106 degrees
Heat on my i7 MBP
Core i7 MBP hits 100C
MacBook Pro too HOT
MacBook Boiling Hot
Hot i5 MBP
Whats new
2010 MBP Heat question
MBP reached 106 degrees
Heat on my i7 MBP
Core i7 MBP hits 100C
MacBook Pro too HOT
MacBook Boiling Hot
Hot i5 MBP
Whats new
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Your avatar is of a usb stick that I saw once but I was never able to find again, it is a usb stick that apple sells?
Apple ships them with the MBA. Contains the OSX/Application restore files normally put in two disks for other macs.
You've summed it up nicely.
I'm a long time Mac laptop user. I really enjoyed my PowerBooks from the past, and after Apple changed the name, MacBook Pros.
Other than a few little bugs that any computer has, the only real issue of concern is the tendency of MBP's to run hot under load. Yet that's to be expected since Apple is obsessed with making it so thin.
I wish Apple wouldn't allow their Chinese manufacturer, to be so sloppy with the gobs of excess thermal paste they apply. If careful assembly was practiced, then the chance of getting a new MBP that needs to be taken apart to remove the gooey gobs of paste wouldn't exist.
Yet that said if you have computer repair experience it's a job you can do with the right tools, and replacement paste. While technically it can void the warranty, and it's easy to break something, once it's done the computer runs so much cooler. They key is to reserve a large block of time, and trudge through it. I fondly call it a computer in a kit.
I've done this job on each of my last four MBP's and just finished my 2010. There's a great sense of self satisfaction knowing I made a huge improvement in it.
I don't really see any need for my computer to be cooler. My 2011 base 15" is running a movie conversion and safari (100% cpu load at the moment) and is only at around 70 C. That's around 20 C cooler than my original macbook.
"I also expected a hybrid SSD + HDD solutions" -- unless you do it yourself that's never going to happen in a stock Apple laptop. ~1/2 of the benefit of SSD in a laptop comes from eliminating the HDD. I'm hoping for something in between the new MBA and the new MBP: no internal optical drive, thinner, 15" with typical MBP power.
Could the standard res screen compared to high res screen be a determining factor for discrepancies in operating temperatures for 2011 MBP's being discussed here?
I imagine a machine running a higher res display size would generate more heat than a machine running a standard res display.
I imagine a machine running a higher res display size would generate more heat than a machine running a standard res display.
Going from the 2007 MB to the 2010 MBP
Having been using a white, non-unibody 13" C2D 2007 Macbook (the old Intel GMA 950 version) that reved up 3500-6000RPM seconds after opening any youtube video or application that provoked some constant CPU usage above 15%, I was not so happy to read about the fan experiences posted by some users of the new 2011 MPB. Being rather noise sensitive and after 3.5 years seriously annoyed by the fan of my old Macbook, I figured it would be best (read: safest) to opt for a refurbished 2010 13" MBP and install an OCZ Vertex 2.
With the SSD the new system is of course super-snappy and, to me at least as important: the fan is hardly ever audible, even when using the Laptop in clamshell mode or when viewing HD youtube videos. And when the fan is audible, it's much quieter at the same RPMs when compared to my old MB. It's a *world* of a difference coming from the old 2007 C2D MB, I couldn't be happier!
Now, I have helped a friend to get started with this new MBP 2011 (13", i5) a couple of days a go (installing the usual system updates, useful software and also larger apps like Office 2011) and the laptop remained rather cool and silent as well, something my old 2007 MB wouldn't have been able to accomplish. So, people coming from the old MBs/MBPs will probably be pleasantly surprised with either the 2010 or 2011 model. In my (short, so far) experience, the 2010 model does run somewhat cooler though when under load (idle cpu temps were a bit lower with the i5, though). Just to be clear: I didn't do a scientific side-by-side comparison or anything, these are just my observations from using the 2010/2011 models for a while. Also note that I'm only referring to the 13" models.
Just wanted to share my experiences, I hope it helps people in a similar situation.
Having been using a white, non-unibody 13" C2D 2007 Macbook (the old Intel GMA 950 version) that reved up 3500-6000RPM seconds after opening any youtube video or application that provoked some constant CPU usage above 15%, I was not so happy to read about the fan experiences posted by some users of the new 2011 MPB. Being rather noise sensitive and after 3.5 years seriously annoyed by the fan of my old Macbook, I figured it would be best (read: safest) to opt for a refurbished 2010 13" MBP and install an OCZ Vertex 2.
With the SSD the new system is of course super-snappy and, to me at least as important: the fan is hardly ever audible, even when using the Laptop in clamshell mode or when viewing HD youtube videos. And when the fan is audible, it's much quieter at the same RPMs when compared to my old MB. It's a *world* of a difference coming from the old 2007 C2D MB, I couldn't be happier!
Now, I have helped a friend to get started with this new MBP 2011 (13", i5) a couple of days a go (installing the usual system updates, useful software and also larger apps like Office 2011) and the laptop remained rather cool and silent as well, something my old 2007 MB wouldn't have been able to accomplish.
So, people coming from the old MBs/MBPs will probably be pleasantly surprised with either the 2010 or 2011 model. In my (short, so far) experience, the 2010 model does run somewhat cooler though when under load (idle cpu temps were a bit lower with the i5, though). Just to be clear: I didn't do a scientific side-by-side comparison or anything, these are just my observations from using the 2010/2011 models for a while. Also note that I'm only referring to the 13" models.Just wanted to share my experiences, I hope it helps people in a similar situation.
2011 Quad vs 2010 2.66
I have a 2010 17" 2.66 GHz i7 and just bought a 2011 2.2 GHz Quad, and I can tell you, the fan noise is noticeably loud when I use Logic (my main application unfortunately).
Using Firefox, iCal, Address Book, iTunes, iPhoto, etc. run quietly. And overall, the applications, including Logic, run much faster. And boot-up and application start-up times are amazingly fast, mostly because of the SSD.
But the fan noise when I'm using Logic is almost a deal killer at this point. I'm considering returning it, it's that bad.
I haven't tried turning off one of the graphics cards, as someone suggested. That's a possibility, but really? Apple, can you figure this out? Do you realize that the CPU-heavy apps are why we bought your new machines, and two main ones are Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro - both applications where quiet operation is critical.
Would welcome any instructions for turning off the graphics card and/or any other suggestions and experiences from other users.
I have a 2010 17" 2.66 GHz i7 and just bought a 2011 2.2 GHz Quad, and I can tell you, the fan noise is noticeably loud when I use Logic (my main application unfortunately).
Using Firefox, iCal, Address Book, iTunes, iPhoto, etc. run quietly. And overall, the applications, including Logic, run much faster. And boot-up and application start-up times are amazingly fast, mostly because of the SSD.
But the fan noise when I'm using Logic is almost a deal killer at this point. I'm considering returning it, it's that bad.
I haven't tried turning off one of the graphics cards, as someone suggested. That's a possibility, but really? Apple, can you figure this out? Do you realize that the CPU-heavy apps are why we bought your new machines, and two main ones are Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro - both applications where quiet operation is critical.
Would welcome any instructions for turning off the graphics card and/or any other suggestions and experiences from other users.
All you need to do is install gfxCardStatus which lets you select only Intel, only dGPU or Apple's BS Auto switching.
Once you use an external monitor you are stuck with the dGPU. With external monitor I Idle around 62-64C. Without on the Intel GPU It is 38-45C. Idle meaning a few apps open but none doing any heavy lifting only web, audio playback and stuff.
typing this from a first gen unibody 2.8. only thing running is macrumors in chrome. checked activity monitor, no errant processes. running between 70-75ºC and fans 4000-5000rpm.
i can easily go over 100ºC if i'm doing any serious work.
i don't think the new mbp's will feel any hotter or louder to me
i can easily go over 100ºC if i'm doing any serious work.
i don't think the new mbp's will feel any hotter or louder to me