If you don't like criticism, you don't have to read it

Discussion in 'MacBook' started by Essenar, Apr 10, 2015.

  1. Essenar macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2008
    #1
    But don't tell people not to voice their complaints either. Wall of text, sort of, incoming, but I'll highlight the main points:

    1) People have criticisms about the single USB-C port and the price because it's viewed as planned obsolescence.

    2) People think that this is a step backwards because it has a Core M processor but is being priced the same as a Retina Pro 13".

    3) People feel that it was being speculated to be a Retina MacBook Air, which they were willing to pay for and actually wanted, but it's not.

    The most common counter argument I see from Retina Macbook apologists seems to be, "If you don't like it, you don't have to buy it."

    That's a good point! But you also cannot tell those same people, not to comment in threads discussing its shortcomings or tell them that the machine isn't meant to replace *insert full time machine*.

    What you need to understand is, US, the people complaining, are doing YOU a favor. Forcing Apple to implement more USB ports or cheapen the USB-C adapters or add a Thunderbolt port does NOT hurt you in any way. In fact, it helps you. Because despite the fact that you're playing devil's advocate just for the sake of defending Apple, none of you can say with a straight face that you PREFER to have a bunch of adapters versus having an extra port.

    What we worry about is the fact that Apple ALWAYS trickles down their design decisions to their other laptops, thereby forcing these "innovations" onto people who wanted no part of them.

    Let's look at history, and for the sake of argument, let's focus on the DVD drive:

    1) First non-DVD Mac of relevance (please read the part "of relevance" like 100 times or however many necessary for you to realize I'm not saying the first, period, but the first, "of relevance") was the MacBook Air. People cried bloody murder at it not having a DVD drive and the common argument was, "It's not a Pro, if you don't like it, just buy the Pro". I recall even Apple saying it. Now, how many models have a DVD drive? Oh, just the Classic.

    2) Soldered memory - Again, implemented on the Air and people commonly argued "Well, it's to save space and if you don't like it, it's not a Pro, you can just buy the Pro." That argument held a lot of salt, I guess. I'll tell you this- I would personally prefer upgradeable ram on my 13" Pro at the cost of an hour or two of battery use, which is literally all it would take. They're not FORCED to add more battery life at the expense of expansion, they're ACTIVELY CHOOSING it. They literally walk into a meeting and say, "Add as much battery volume as you can, and make the logic board as small as possible." It's gotten to the point where the battery makes up most of the mass underneath the keyboard.

    3) Proprietary SSD's - AGAIN, implemented on the Air and people, AGAIN, argued that you could just buy the Pro and to not buy it if you don't like it.
    Now, we don't have a MacBook model that does NOT have proprietary SSD's and OFC cannot produce/manufacture their aftermarket solutions fast enough to beat Apple on refreshes. They're literally changing the form factor and port EVERY year despite the shell and board staying almost exactly the same.

    4) Lack of discrete graphics - First, they had a "non Pro" MacBook back in the day that came with integrated graphics. People constantly asked for discrete graphics and the common argument was, "Well it's not a Pro. If you want discrete graphics you can buy the Pro..." And then Apple decided to fit the 13" with a Unibody aluminum shell and call it a "Pro". People's argument to the complaints about the 13" being called a Pro without discrete graphics? "The real pro is the 15" and that always has discrete graphics". Does it, now? Thanks to manipulation of media from sponsorships and advertising power, no one gives bad reviews anymore so people blatantly ignored the fact that the 15" Pro with Iris Pro, despite having better processing power and battery life, was about 20~30% slower in GPU power than the previous generation. Some reviewers even blatantly IGNORED a GPU test and focused only on the CPU test, or compared the GPU power to the HD4000 or only compared it to other laptops using integrated graphics. And everyone just "accepted" it. I even bought a 15" 650M specifically because the new 15" Pro was no longer a "Pro".

    Apple used to design from the top. Design implementations used to trickle "down", and now they're trickling up. And if we don't universally voice our concerns, it WILL trickle up. What does this mean? One USB-C port or rather, a complete lack of ports on the higher end "Pro" models. Why? So they can be thinner, have more battery life, be sleeker. Apple has gotten accustomed to throwing words at us that don't mean as much to us as other words.

    Apple chooses "We've managed to make it our thinnest... yet." Why? Why does thin always matter? Why does battery life always matter?

    A 15" MacBook is not supposed to be the thinnest, lightest notebook ever. That's what the Air is. But they developed this "good product" matrix and they apply it to EVERY PRODUCT on their shelf. Power users mean nothing anymore and apologists and blind loyalists are just sitting at the dinner table swallowing it all. I'll say it:
    The 15" MacBook Pro is inferior to its prior revisions. If they built a 15" Classic, with the same components as the 15" Retina, but chose to make it slightly thicker and heavier, but also able to be upgraded and with a 750m standard (it should have an 860M at this point. Past 15" MacBook's had a 6 series GPU and in early 2012 they switched to 5 series which is literally high low-range or bottom mid-range), it wouldn't affect them negatively. No one would complain that it's too heavy or that it's not light because power users don't give a crap about that. And it would sell.

    But they won't... Because the community, rather than holding them accountable, universally stands by their side. Literally a community of Stockholm Syndrome.
     
  2. Queen6 macrumors 603

    Queen6

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2008
    Location:
    Enjoying Better Things
    #2
    I tend to agree, unfortunately Apple has long left the enthusiast and "Pro" arena and it`s solid focus is the average consumer. This is clearly obvious with iToy`s and some of the Mac decisions.

    Will it change? Not anytime soon, only thing that will change Apple`s direction is sales. Apple want`s you to buy into their ecosystem and cleverly designs their product to deepen your dependancy; fewer ports equals more iTunes & iCloud uptake this all equals greater revenue for Apple, as that`s what Apple`s about.

    Stockholm Syndrome; interesting, not far from the truth for some...


    Q-6
     
  3. newellj macrumors 601

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2014
    Location:
    Boston, MA, US
    #3
    Apple is a consumer company (surprise!). The only meaningful input you and I get is decisions to purchase, return or not purchase.
     
  4. Mindinversion macrumors 6502

    Mindinversion

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2008
    #4
    If you think your complaints are mandatory for ANY company to make improvements in new product 2.0. . I don't know what to tell ya.

    I didn't read your entire argument, I get what you're saying, I understand the complaints about the new macbook, and I get the defenses. But that's not what I came here to comment on.

    I just wanted to make an observation on

    IIRC, the 750m is a 50w card, and the 860 is 100w.

    I have no idea what the 960 pulls, but I know it's lower than the 860.. at least enough for Razer to put in a hotter processor with their latest design update to keep the power draw in line with last year's model [I'm not promoting them, just using an observation]

    Carry on ^^
     
  5. scottomfg macrumors member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2014
    #5
    Calling people who like, and intend to buy, the new MacBook 'apologists' is insulting and reveals shallow thinking that the compromises it makes are plainly bad, instead of a more nuanced view that acknowledges that for some users the compromises are essentially perfect.

    Here is my use case, and why I'm a big fan of this new computer. http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=20944870#post20944870

    So, yeah, I know you think you're doing everyone a favor by complaining here, but I assure you, you're not doing me any favors. Write Apple a nice long email, encourage others who share your views to do so also, that would be more effective. And of course, vote with your wallet.

    Sadly for you, it won't matter because there are many people like me for whom this laptop is perfect and we will buy them and it will be a success no matter how often you complain on internet message boards.
     
  6. paulrbeers macrumors 68040

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2009
    #6
    Brevity my friend.... You lost me about paragraph 3 or 4.

    You might have made some great points, but maybe bullet points would be better. You spent 4-5 paragraphs just getting to your argument.
     
  7. andy9l, Apr 10, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2015

    andy9l macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Location:
    England, UK
    #7
    If you don't like criticism, you don't have to read it

    You know when usage data gets sent to Apple? When they scan a product and sell it in store or online? When you return an item? That data is what their business decisions will be based on. Not just flippant comments in a meeting room.

    Realise you're a techie person preaching to the choir about specs on a techie fan forum.

    Macs are becoming increasingly popular. By laws of average, this means the percentage of techie people buying them is decreasing. This means the specs become far, far less important, presenting a huge business opportunity to capitalise on this.

    You ask any of my friends if they want longer battery life and an ultra thin, brand new laptop, or a dual-core i5 in a bigger, heavier laptop that they've seen around for the past 6 or 7 years. I bet you I know which one they'd go for. Every time.

    The world is bigger than you and I. This forum is a niche of techies. Simply, we are not the target market for Apple's entire product range.

    I can't wait to try an rMB. I can't remember the last time I used a port other than power.
     
  8. technosix macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2015
    Location:
    West Coast USA
    #8
    Excellent point!

    From my seat in this theatre and reflecting on two decades of Apple Computer history, it seems that the iOS side is growing at warp speed. It's also influencing the OS X operating system far more than I'd like.

    I am one to embrace change if it's beneficial to my workflow. Conversely when it's to impress consumer / home users with flashy animations and iOS looks, I cringe.
     
  9. aristobrat macrumors G4

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2005
    #9
    $1,499 = 13" rMBP with 8GB of RAM and 256 SSD
    $1,299 = 12" rMB with 8GB of RAM and 256 SSD

    The MacBook is not being priced the same as a 13" rMBP.
     
  10. djbuu macrumors member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2015
    #10
    Stopped reading at the word apologists.

    That's just an ignorant and downright insulting word to use. Why? Because not everyone needs or wants an SUV even though it can certainly do more and is more powerful than their coupe.

    Everything, on earth, is an amalgamation of features. You and your wallet decide if that amalgamation meets your needs. No apology necessary.
     
  11. racer1441 macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    #11

    My issue is that 'pro' means professional. Not video professionals. We need to understand that many professioonals will use these products, regardless of the opinions of video and picture snobs.
     
  12. Queen6 macrumors 603

    Queen6

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2008
    Location:
    Enjoying Better Things
    #12
    I am definitely in a profession that is classed as professional, equally nothing to do with video or photography. Apple makes consumer grade products and if they meet your need in a professional environment it`s more to do with coincidence than design, as the basic home user is the target audience these days...

    Q-6
     
  13. djbuu macrumors member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2015
    #13
    This comment honestly makes no sense to me. What exactly is a "basic home consumer" these days?

    George RR Martin writes the Song of Ice and Fire series on a DOS machine using Wordstar 4.0, software is that was created in the 80s. Obviously he is an exception but the point that I'm making is "Professional" just means you are accomplishing a task and being paid for it.

    I can think of 20 types of businesses that could fully use this rMB "professionally" with no compromises.

    We all need to wash it out of our heads that "professional = heavy video and photo manipulation." It's wrong. That industry is relatively small.

    Apple isn't focused on the "basic home user." They are focused on building platforms and letting the people decided how it fills the role in their life. Take the iPad for example. These mare used in ways people didn't think were possible upon its release (point of sale kiosk, really?)

    tl;dr - Professional =/= Heavy Video and Photography editing. Stop already.
     
  14. racer1441 macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    #14
    There is no such thing as the consumer grade product. This is the attitude I'm talking about. You can take the 'crippled' Macbook and run a multimillion dollar company with out a issue. You can also just use it for web and email for family use.
     
  15. tillsbury macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2007
    #15
    So, your point is that people should complain in order to make changes (or avoid changes, perhaps), and yet you point out that Apple take absolutely no notice and go ahead with the changes anyway.

    Some people like the progress that's being made. RAM is soldered, SSDs are proprietary (and now soldered too, it seems). DVDs, HDDs, and even fans are removed to get rid of any mechanical parts. As a computer engineer in a past life I'm very happy to see all these changes, and computers become as reliable as we now expect ipads to be.

    What do you want? Everything to go back to socketed 74LS chips all over the place?
     
  16. squirrrl macrumors 6502a

    squirrrl

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2013
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    #16
    I miss the SCSI connectors. I hope they bring them back for the next rMB model. ;)
     
  17. Queen6 macrumors 603

    Queen6

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2008
    Location:
    Enjoying Better Things
    #17
    Apple designs what they believe will sell best to the average consumer, not any specific niche groups. Those with addition demands can look elsewhere, or if OS X and Apple`s hardware works stick with that, it`s no more complex than this.

    Q-6
     
  18. ct1211 macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    May 3, 2012
    Location:
    Michigan
    #18
    Heres the real issue why Apple can do as they please. No one in the marketplace is stepping up to meet them on innovative design aesthetic, performance etc while at the same time providing all of the ports and other add on features we long for that Apple has removed and then raised the price in the process, because they can! They will continue to do so until someone else makes a move. I used to pay close to $3,000 for sleek (at the time) carbon fiber Sony Z series computers because I wanted well made, decent performance in a thin and light design. (its documented even Jobs admired Sony back in the day)

    Today, if you want an alternative the best showing right now is the Dell 13" unit and it still looks cheap!
     
  19. leman macrumors 604

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
    #19
    I would really prefer not to comment on the OP's post in length, but I still want to mention some key points here.

    1. The MacBook is the retina MacBook air... and its priced very competitively to it. The 13" MBA with same SSD/RAM costs the same.

    2. The lack of ports and slower CPU is not the issue for the user this laptop is targeted at. Sure, another port would be quite useful and having TB would help as well. I am certain TB will be implemented as an alt USB-C mode in future iterations. For now, its a gen-1 product.

    3. The reasoning of 'if you let Apple do what they want, they will take good things from you' is simply ridiculous. The reason why we don't have DVD drives, replaceable RAM etc. is not because of you very liberal interpretation of Stockholm Syndrome, but simply because its the direction the industry is moving towards. E.g., some complain about fuel injection in modern cars instead of carbs, because it makes the cars practically impossible to service and repair at home, and yet FI has prevailed. Why? Not because the car companies want to screw you over, but because its a preferred solution for the vast majority of the customers.

    4. Apple has a particular vision and that vision does not seem to be in sync with yours. That's ok. However, insulting people (like myself) that support that vision just because its different of yours is a sign of your limitation, not theirs. Sure, Apple's vision includes a lot of compromises. But show me another general consumer laptop that comes with storage that can maintain read/write speeds of over 1GB/s. Now that matters more to me then — because it actually helps me in my work every day — than a theoretical possibility to swap the SSD to a bigger one.
     
  20. newellj macrumors 601

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2014
    Location:
    Boston, MA, US
    #20
    Hush, I actually still use RS-232 connectors. :eek:

    ----------

    Exactly. This comes up in small but constant bursts (or I guess I'd say outbursts) over the demise of the 17" MacBook.
     
  21. QCassidy352 macrumors G3

    QCassidy352

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Location:
    Bay Area
    #21
    rMB has the same battery life as the 13" rpro and worse than the 13" air by a lot so not sure about the battery part of your argument.
     
  22. racer1441 macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    #22
    You are simplifying the concept way too far.
     
  23. andy9l macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2009
    Location:
    England, UK
    #23
    If you don't like criticism, you don't have to read it

    There is no argument.

    In short, longer battery life (however that may be worded/marketed) and better aesthetics are far more appealing to the masses than processor specs.
     
  24. Queen6 macrumors 603

    Queen6

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2008
    Location:
    Enjoying Better Things
    #24
    Not really, If Apple doesn't provide the hardware that meets your specific needs, there is a multitude of alternatives. I use what`s best for the job, not based on what logo`s on the box...

    Apple provides consumer product to the masses, like it or loath it, equally deal with it, as likely no one cares.

    Q-6
     
  25. Essenar thread starter macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2008
    #25
    His comment makes perfect sense. You're just blatantly modifying the definition of professional to suit your argument.

    And no offense, but if the basis of your argument on Apple making design decisions, is to reference a man who uses a machine from the 80's to do his "professional" work, then you've pretty much helped me make my argument that "new" is not always "innovative".

    My issue is that what constituted "professional" before 2012, is not what Apple constitutes it now. They believed that the type of professional who would need a MacBook "Pro", was someone who needed a discrete GPU, the ability to upgrade their ram and hard drive and lots of port accessibility. You say that you know professionals using DOS.

    That's fine. I'm an engineer and I don't. My friends develop software, games, edit photographs. They like power and mobility but they like those to be equally inclusive. If you want an emphasis on mobility, why would you pay $2000 for a 15" laptop? You wouldn't. You would be a 13" Pro, or the 13" Air if you wanted even lighter and now the 12" MBr if you want EVEN lighter with a better screen.

    A person who values mobility has FOUR choices for MacBook models that are lighter, more battery life, more mobile, thinner and sleeker than the 15". And yet, the owner of the 15" who LIKES discrete GPU's, who likes more memory, who likes to be able to "buy now, fix up later". Who only needs battery life maybe one day out of the week or even two days out of the week. The one who likes their MacBook PRO to be a professional grade notebook that they can take with them as a desktop replacement/mobile workstation. That person is having their notebook turned into some Frankenstein 15" MacBook Air.

    THAT is what bothers me. I no longer own a 15" Retina because I hated how compromised it was. I loved the screen. I loved the colors and the feel of the keyboard. I loved everything about that machine except that it wasn't a 15" to me. It felt like an oversized MacBook Air with a higher resolution screen.

    What bothers me is that Apple is changing these notebooks despite the fact that they don't have to. And you're all fanning their fires.
     

Share This Page