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So who's calling who a liar?

Here's my proof:

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/l...0641683.pdf?arnumber=641683&authDecision=-203

http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/frisc/theses/MaierThesis/

http://www.iphonejd.com/iphone_jd/2008/12/cliff-maier-lawyer-iphone-app-author.html

http://www.mayerbrown.com/lawyers/profile.asp?hubbardid=M293148220

Now will you stop telling me I don't know how CPUs work and I don't know what I.P. is?

Got a citation for that? The ifixit article states that they are making this presumption based on the number of cores, not any detailed analysis of the layout.



While you're pulling degrees out of your ass, you might as well assert you're a software developer and you wrote the original task scheduler for NeXT.



Any high school kid whose seen die photos of the two chips can tell the difference.

Your argument is that you've seen the die of the A4 and that it is exactly the die of the Cortex A8. This is nonsense on multiple levels, and unless you're privy to die photos the rest of us haven't seen, an obvious lie.

But I love how you're an attorny and chip designer. That's choice!
 
No it wasn't.

From wikipedia:
"P.A. Semi concentrated on making powerful and power-efficient Power Architecture processors called PWRficient, based on the PA6T processor core. The PA6T was the first Power Architecture core to be designed from scratch outside the AIM alliance (i.e. not by Apple, IBM, or Motorola/Freescale) in ten years. Texas Instruments was one of the investors in P.A. Semi and it is suggested that their fabrication plants will be used to manufacture the PWRficient processors.[5]"

The POWER Architecutre originated at IBM. PA Semi reworked it. (obviously they did a new layout from scratch but the CPUs remained Power CPUs, just as the A4 is still an ARM CPU).

If Apple had used one of their designs, you'd be claiming it was the work of IBM. Insisting that they could have made no changes.
 
I love it, a chip designer that thinks a 64bit word memory controller with a 32bit word core will result in better performance!

Of course, the fact that you aren't responding to the argument I was making, and instead are knocking down a strawman to attempt to characterize me.... after your orgy of argument from false authority, is pretty funny.

Tell me where I said it will result in better performance?

Of course, it DOES result in better performance. You only go to main memory when you have a cache miss. When you need to read data into the cache, you get better performance when you load more data into the cache per cycle - if you need a value at address X now, you will probably need X+1 later. Similarly, when you write a dirty line back into memory from the cache, a wider bus let's you do this faster, meaning you can re-use that cache line more quickly.

You said "rework stock designs." They did their own design from scratch, as you point out below. They did not rework the "power architecture," either. They used the existing architecture and did a fresh design.

From wikipedia:
"P.A. Semi concentrated on making powerful and power-efficient Power Architecture processors called PWRficient, based on the PA6T processor core. The PA6T was the first Power Architecture core to be designed from scratch outside the AIM alliance (i.e. not by Apple, IBM, or Motorola/Freescale) in ten years. Texas Instruments was one of the investors in P.A. Semi and it is suggested that their fabrication plants will be used to manufacture the PWRficient processors.[5]"

The POWER Architecutre originated at IBM. PA Semi reworked it. (obviously they did a new layout from scratch but the CPUs remained Power CPUs, just as the A4 is still an ARM CPU).

If Apple had used one of their designs, you'd be claiming it was the work of IBM. Insisting that they could have made no changes.
 
So who's calling who a liar?

I love it! You write iPhone apps in your spare time, because being a world class chip designer and IP lawyer isn't profitably enough?

Now will you stop telling me I don't know how CPUs work and I don't know what I.P. is?

Yep, I'm still calling you a liar because you're still lying. I pointed out that ARM sells licenses that allow for derivative works. I pointed out the history of PA Semi.

BTW, if you want to offer proof, show us die photos of a verifiable shipping Cortex A8 and the A4.

Until then, you are a liar. Even if you can't settle on a profession.

Tell me where I said it will result in better performance?

Of course, it DOES result in better performance. You only go to main memory when you have a cache miss. When you need to read data into the cache, you get better performance when you load more data into the cache per cycle - if you need a value at address X now, you will probably need X+1 later. Similarly, when you write a dirty line back into memory from the cache, a wider bus let's you do this faster, meaning you can re-use that cache line more quickly.



I see. You're just going to make **crap** up to pretend like you didn't say what you said, when you made **crap** up about what I was saying.

Thus there is no possibility for rational argument, I am reduced to merely pointing out that this is what you are doing.
 
Can't even admit when you're wrong, and just resort to name-calling, huh? It would be nice if you'd try to stick to the forum rules.

I love it! You write iPhone apps in your spare time, because being a world class chip designer and IP lawyer isn't profitably enough?



Yep, I'm still calling you a liar because you're still lying. I pointed out that ARM sells licenses that allow for derivative works. I pointed out the history of PA Semi.

BTW, if you want to offer proof, show us die photos of a verifiable shipping Cortex A8 and the A4.

Until then, you are a liar. Even if you can't settle on a profession.

I see. You're just going to make **crap** up to pretend like you didn't say what you said, when you made **crap** up about what I was saying.

Thus there is no possibility for rational argument, I am reduced to merely pointing out that this is what you are doing.

I'm not making up crap. I stated a fact. There are many figures and data that prove my point in my Ph.D. dissertation. For example: http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/frisc/theses/MaierThesis/ figures 2.3-2.6. Much of the accompanying text discusses the effect of bus width between cache and memory on the overall CPU performance.

Do you deny that cache lines are wider than 32 bits, now?
 
You said "rework stock designs." They did their own design from scratch, as you point out below. They did not rework the "power architecture," either. They used the existing architecture and did a fresh design.

I love how your choice to characterize the work differently than I did, is somehow-- in your mind-- justification for claiming they didn't. Of course, in doing so, you just said they "did their own design from scratch".

This means my original point-- that Apple hired them to make custom CPUs compatible with off the shelf designs-- like the ARM or POWER architecture-- is correct, and your objection is idiotic.

You can't have it both ways.
 
I love how your choice to characterize the work differently than I did, is somehow-- in your mind-- justification for claiming they didn't. Of course, in doing so, you just said they "did their own design from scratch".

This means my original point-- that Apple hired them to make custom CPUs compatible with off the shelf designs-- like the ARM or POWER architecture-- is correct, and your objection is idiotic.

You can't have it both ways.

I agree with "Apple hired them to make custom CPUs compatible with off the shelf designs." I objected to your claim that they reworked off-the-shelf designs. Nothing inconsistent there. You seem to want to think I am some sort of anti-Apple guy or I'm trying to disparage A4 or Apple. This is not true. I am merely correcting your false statements, and responding to your diatribe about how my characterization of things results from my lack of knowledge about CPUs and IP, two things about which I have more expertise than you, I presume.
 
I'm not making up crap. I stated a fact. There are many figures and data that prove my point in my Ph.D. dissertation. For example: http://www.ecse.rpi.edu/frisc/theses/MaierThesis/ figures 2.3-2.6. Much of the accompanying text discusses the effect of bus width between cache and memory on the overall CPU performance.

Just like I was stating facts when I described what PA Semiconductor did. Only the difference is, the fact I was stating is related to the argument you were making, while the facts you were stating are pointless and irrelevant.

They probably do very well, though, when your audience is not technical, and thus can't tell it is essentially nonsense (factual as it may be) and irrelevant.

Do you deny that cache lines are wider than 32 bits, now?

I love this. This is so profoundly dishonest and pathetic that I can do nothing but laugh.

So, are you going to keep denying that Steve Jobs is CEO of Apple?

I am merely correcting your false statements,

Says the guy who just put words in my mouth about cache lines.

I have more expertise than you, I presume.

Certainly, I've never claimed to be a lawyer-programmer-archeologist.

If you had more relevant expertise, you could enlighten me and respond to the arguments I was making. You wouldn't need to resort to lying about what I said followed up with argumentum ad verecundiam.

Ok, now that I've quoted latin to an alledged* lawyer, I'm done. I can't stop you from lying, and it's pointless to try. Have fun.

*alledged because choosing the nick of, and linking to the web pages of some guy does not mean you're that guy. A fallacy that should be obvious to a lawyer.
 
Just like I was stating facts when I described what PA Semiconductor did. Only the difference is, the fact I was stating is related to the argument you were making, while the facts you were stating are pointless and irrelevant.

They probably do very well, though, when your audience is not technical, and thus can't tell it is essentially nonsense (factual as it may be) and irrelevant.



I love this. This is so profoundly dishonest and pathetic that I can do nothing but laugh.

So, are you going to keep denying that Steve Jobs is CEO of Apple?

What are you talking about? You accused me of lying when I said that a wider bus improves performance - you ridiculed me for it. I then proved it was true, both by explaining why it is so, and then by linking to a document (admittedly authored by me more than a decade ago) with extensive discussion of this issue, including experimental data and lovely 3-D graphs.

If you don't believe me, here are some other resources:

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/ram/timingBus-c.html
http://www.acm.org/crossroads/xrds5-3/pmgap.html
http://www.ece.umd.edu/~blj/dram/

I'm not sure why you think you need to try and disparage me rather than admitting you were incorrect about my experience as well as about my explanation of how memory architecture works, but I'm not inclined to continue this conversation since you seem unwilling to communicate in a polite manner.
 
Not true, Apple has licensed the IP to design ARM chips and uses Samsung which has a license to manufacture them.

Depends upon what he meant as "hold". Apple doesn't own the IP; hold as in own. It is licensed.

If Apple wants to get the most "bang for the buck" out of this and future architecture licenses they will need to follow ARM on future general architecture updates. ( not fork off into the separate line of development like NeXT did with gcc ) There are benefits of sharing the general R&D costs with the other ARM implementors. For example, that helps keep the general ARM market lead over Intel. Start fragmenting into smaller and smaller pools of development and eventually Intel will steamroll you.

Samsung is a competitor of Apple. The fab is suppose to be firewalled off from the phone part, but this way Apple can be more secretive. So if Apple can do most of the design in-house and just go to Samsung fab with details as needed they will have a lead before the details leak out into the market.

They are already marketing the magical oompa loompa pixie dust around the A4. There will be just as much Willy Wonka when they trot out the A5.
If it was a "secret" then would not be a show.


There is always a design choice as to what get collapsed into the system on a chip. Some vendors will want a certain subset and others will want another. Apple taking control means they can pick their own subset. It makes sense if that the choice made for the iPhone, iPod Touch , and iPad will always remained closely aligned. If going to amortize the design work over 10's of millions of chips then it may work. For the single digits millions (like the the Mac line) it likely won't. Especially if competing against Intel and AMD which are doing many 10's of millions.

The ARM market is still somewhat fragmented ( many implementors both with architecture implementation and customizations of the ARM baseline design ). If it collapsed to just 2-3 implementors this would be much more dubious. If those 2-3 were cranking out 100's of millions and Apple only 10's then may not see a unit cost win there.


There is package design too. If RAM density goes up and could use the third die in the package for something else (trackpad control or something else they just bought like the RAM ) can shrink the amount space and power consumed on the board. Apple might go for that whereas others won't ( limited multitasking versus the alternative for example being the different motivations ). Or can just go the "save money" route and use 'old' RAM tech than other folks do ( e.g., also stay about 1/2 of what everyone else builds into the CPU package.) That will save some money.

I think this is more of a long term move. Over time the blackhole of CPU will consume GPU , memory, class computer i/o , etc. The radios will likely coalesce into another black hole. Shrink the circuit boards of the iPhone, Touch , and iPad smaller and have more room for batteries. :)
 
*alledged because choosing the nick of, and linking to the web pages of some guy does not mean you're that guy. A fallacy that should be obvious to a lawyer.

Unfortunately, all I can prove is there is a guy with a name similar to my handle on these forums who is both a lawyer and a CPU designer. I cannot prove I am that guy, though the fact that I've been on this board for a very long time, with the handle "cmaier," is somewhat persuasive (unless you believe I've been lying in wait for exactly such a moment). Feel free to email the person or call the person corresponding to those links and ask. That should prove it to you.
 
What are you talking about? You accused me of lying when I said that a wider bus improves performance - you ridiculed me for it.

Like I said in my last message this is pointless because once I disprove one lie you make up another.

I have, and would, never say that a wider bus cannot improve performance.

I'm not sure why you think you need to try and disparage me

Says the guy whose done nothing but lie about what I have said.

BTW, where's the dies? You claim to have seen these dies... lets see the photos.

rather than admitting you were incorrect about my experience

Man, what an ego you have! Your experience only became an issue when you brought it up, to try and justify your dishonest attacks against me.

I'm not inclined to continue this conversation since you seem unwilling to communicate in a polite manner.

Funny. When you start off by lying about people, you don't get to say the other guy is being impolite.

You should go away, though, and don't come back until you post pictures to these dies you claim to have seen and compared.

You seem to have no trouble posting links to obvious statements about memory architecture that were never in dispute.

How about defending what actually was?

Or are you only interested in disparaging me, telling lies and jacking off your own ego?
 
Like I said in my last message this is pointless because once I disprove one lie you make up another.

I have, and would, never say that a wider bus cannot improve performance.



Says the guy whose done nothing but lie about what I have said.

BTW, where's the dies? You claim to have seen these dies... lets see the photos.



Man, what an ego you have! Your experience only became an issue when you brought it up, to try and justify your dishonest attacks against me.



Funny. When you start off by lying about people, you don't get to say the other guy is being impolite.

You should go away, though, and don't come back until you post pictures to these dies you claim to have seen and compared.

You seem to have no trouble posting links to obvious statements about memory architecture that were never in dispute.

How about defending what actually was?

Or are you only interested in disparaging me, telling lies and jacking off your own ego?

Quit the flame war already.

Here are die photos: http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Apple-A4-Teardown/2204/3

Here's a quote: "Every iPhone processor that we have dissected has had a Samsung part number on the processor die." Samsung makes the die.

If you have any other names to call or disparaging to do, please keep it to yourself.
 
They didn't find Samsung markings on the A4 die though.

And there are no die photos at that link. There are some closeups that show part numbers, but no photo of the whole die from which one can (presumably) deduce that it is identical to an off the shelf Cortex-8 die.

IF there is, I missed it.

So, please, provide the following links:
1) One to a page that is presumably authoritative and that links to a die photo showing the whole A4 CPU die.
2) A direct link to the photo showing the die that exists on that page (so there's no confusion.)
3) A link to an authoritative source showing die photos of an off the shelf Cortex A8 die.

You could have done this at the beginning, by the way, if you actually have this information, and I would have recognized that I was in error in believing that we had no A4 CPU die images to look at. (Presumably chipworks does.)

----



Sure they did, according to iFixIt. "The processor die" is the processor die, not the RAM dies.

Jesus, read the next sentence:
"Every iPhone processor that we have dissected has had a Samsung part number on the processor die. We have not found any Samsung markings on the A4 (outside of the DRAM), perhaps the clearest sign to date that Apple is in firm control of the semiconductor design."

Also, when they say "iPhone processor" they are talking about the previous devices, which were all iPhones. We're talking about an iPad. So, even without the second sentence it should be obvious they are talking about prior devices.
---------

I'm beginning to think this whole debate is because you weren't paying attention and misread the article, didn't bother to read what I was actually writing, and decided to strut your authority around based solely on a misconception.

Am I wrong?

Show us photos of the dies and an off the shelf Cortex A8 die!

---



Here, I did half the work for you. Found an example Cortex A8 on EE Times:
http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/...found-in-omap-3530?cmp_id=7&news_id=210100653

Now, where's your A4 photo?



----

Here's a diagram of a Cortex-A9, Single Core:
http://www.arm.com/images/A9-Pipeline-hres.jpg

iFixit, and all the so-called "Experts" who have been claiming that the A4 uses an A8 have been doing so based on the fact that it is a single core. They were completely unaware that the Cortex-A9 came in a single core version (because their knowledge comes from press releases.)

I'm not saying the A4 is Cortex-A9. I'm just saying that a lot of "knowledge" gets passed around on nonsense presumptions like "it is single core therefore it's a cortex-a8, and apple didn't actually design anything". (which is a the kind of logic that's going on here, not a quote of anybody.)
 
The POWER Architecutre originated at IBM. PA Semi reworked it. .

The disconnect between you and cmaier I think evolves out of you having a nontechnical notion of architecture and design as used in the context of building and constructing CPUs. Either that or you are a troll.

The Architecture is the same in that code for POWERPC systems should run on both IBM's and P.A. Semi's implementations. P.A. implemented ( through design) the Architecture.


They aren't the same. The architecture in this context is more aligned with the set of opcodes and functionality that the chips exhibit ( have floating point math , certain registers , etc. ). The design is more so how you implement that architecture ( how go about hooking up the transitors, layout of the function units etc. ).

For example being able to tell intel vs. amd x86 by die photos. There are certain tendencies of function unit layout and trade-offs made by Intel versus AMD that can provide clues as to which one is by which vendor. Similar to how folks can tell a various painters from each other. It isn't a quiz on having memorized the specific pictures. That is making a distinction upon the design while substantially the architecture is the same.


It is unclear whether A4 was done by the ex P.A. Semi folks or was already in flight when they got there. If it were a build from scratch just using the architecture guidelines that would have be very quick implementation ( given there were functioning iPads last fall/summer inside of Apple. )

Brining in the P.A. Semi and Instrinsity folks may be more about where Apple is going with the next generation implementation than says anything specific about the current one. Being harder to do than they thought (with the old custom silicon folks they had from chipset days) would be a good motivation to do these acquisition but let the team finish out what they had started.
 
The disconnect between you and cmaier....

Of course. Someone on a forum who knows what they are talking about and makes arguments based on knowledge of the state of the art is "nontechnical" or a "troll", but someone who just makes personal attacks and lies about people but who claims to be an expert, is an expert?

Really?

Given this is a mac forum, the person saying that Apple isn't lying to everyone is, by definition, not the troll.

Further, I am the one who pointed out, contrary to the experience of apparently everyone else here (including the so-called expert) that the A9 comes in a single core version.

Given the claim the A4 is based on the A8 is based solely on the presumption that there is no single-core A9, I've made my case. No need to call people names.

Further, even if there were no Single Core A9, the claim is still specious as it presumes that Apple couldn't modify the CPU in any way. Something that people have further "defended" with the claim that ARM doesn't allow people to do so.

I was also the one who pointed out that ARM does, in fact, have a licensing scheme that allows for derivatives, and that it is quite likely Apple's license includes this, given that Apple has bought at least one, and possibly two, companies whose business would be to do such work.

So, when you call me a troll, or claim I'm "nontechnical" without providing any new argument yourself, I see you just as attacking me because cmaier choose to attack me personally, rather than make arguments.

Sort of the internet smear the queer.

The ironic thing is, this actually confirms my overall thesis -- which is that people on the internet spread fallacies based on misunderstandings (such as the presumption that Apple couldn't customize and the A9 is only multi-core)..... and then attack people who actually have knowledge to bring to bear.

And of course, it takes only one line to make a nonsense assertion or tell a lie, but it takes many lines to refute the claim. Thus the person who is accurate, and who is defending their position is forced to write more text, which is then tuned out by people who aren't paying close attention. And even when one writes many posts, explaining and clarifying, that doesn't stop someone from just remaking the original assertion in a single line.

The more you attack me, the more you confirm that hypothesis.

If you wish to convince me, provide some evidence, or argument. I am aware that the deadline is tight for a complete reworking of the design, and thus it is likely that Apple used a mostly off the shelf core. The point I was arguing against is the claim that Apple didn't customize it at all, and that there is thus no value add or compelling reason for Apple to make their own CPU. People think that this is comparable to a droid as if they used the same processor.

But do be aware that I have never said the A4 is not a Cortex-A8 design. Only that the claim that this is a "Fact" is not accurate.
 
There seems to be one simple thing that a lot of people are ignoring here. If the iPad is using the same processor as the 3GS, and has the same RAM as the 3GS, how the hell does it outperform the 3GS so handily in all the benchmark tests we've seen? Surely that slightly increased clock speed couldn't account for all that exrtra performance driving a higher resolution screen with very efficient performance to boot.

There has to be more to the story than just a higher clock speed.
 
They didn't find Samsung markings on the A4 die though.

Does Samsung commonly ship around unpackaged RAM dies ???????????
I'm not familiar with any RAM vendors that ship around fundamentally raw RAM dies.

There are Samsung markings on the RAM dies inside of the same package. The easiest, cheapest solution would be for Samsung fabbed RAM dies to be combined into the same package as the Samsung fabbed A4 die. Given that Apple used Samsung to provide the ARM packages before what is the indicator that this is not fabbed at Samsung ?

Otherwise what happened here is that Apple convinced Samsung to ship unpackaged RAM to another packaging facility. Or is shipping finished A4 dies from some other fab to Samsung for packaging.
 
If the iPad is using the same processor as the 3GS, and has the same RAM as the 3GS, how the hell does it outperform the 3GS so handily in all the benchmark tests we've seen?

Along with that, people are assuming it is using the same GPU. Yet I see no fill rate issues at all on the iPad and its screen is a whole lot bigger. Likely, like the GPU is an Imagination Tech IP, but which version it is, we do not know. Yet you often see people making assertions about which one it is.

I'm not familiar with any RAM vendors that ship around fundamentally raw RAM dies.

It is understandable you would say that, given lay people think in terms of packaged integrated circuits. But semiconductor manufacturers do sell dies and uncut wafers, though these sales are more likely to occur in strategic agreements. Intel and micron have a strategic partnership, for instance, and I wouldn't be surprised to discover that they are (or will be) producing multi-die packages with dies from both manufacturers. Whether shipping is a kilometer or two within the same facility or across the world isn't really an issue, is it?

The easiest, cheapest solution would be for Samsung fabbed RAM dies to be combined into the same package as the Samsung fabbed A4 die.

You seem to be presuming that this would be cheaper because it saves... what? Shipping cost to another facility?

Building a CPU and building a DRAM are very different. They use different processes, are built in different facilities and (I suspect) generally are on different schedules for feature size as well as even wafer size, not to mention different chemistry, lithography and all the other aspects involved in moving from building chips at one feature size to another.

Thus they wouldn't be built in the same building. Not that shipping cost on dies is anything significant compared to their value.

Given that Apple used Samsung to provide the ARM packages before what is the indicator that this is not fabbed at Samsung ?

Whether the CPU was fabbed at samsung or not is irrelevant.

Some people seem to be under the misconception that if the die was made by Samsung at a samsung facility, that therefore, it is of samsung design, and not Apple's. Given that Apple and samsung have a good relationship, it seems plausible to me that samsung is acting as a fab for Apple, as they have in the past.

Really, where the die was made has no bearing on what the design on the die is.

Further, are we to believe that Apple is lying when they (specifically Steve) says they want to differentiate with custom silicon?
 
Along with that, people are assuming it is using the same GPU. Yet I see no fill rate issues at all on the iPad and its screen is a whole lot bigger. Likely, like the GPU is an Imagination Tech IP, but which version it is, we do not know. Yet you often see people making assertions about which one it is.
Does the iPhone have a problem with fill rate? How is that even remotely possible in a TBDR? PowerVRs have always had fillrate to burn considering (if you construct your scene correctly) only the visible pixels are drawn anyways.

@deconstruct60 You do bring up a good point and I guess that could have been what cmaier meant. It would have been nice if he put it that way though.
 
Ok for us non-super-low-level-techies a couple of questions?

Physical size, the motherboard seems a lot large than the one in the iPhone. So it's hard to judge size of the A4. How does it compare? will it fit in the iPhone or iPod Touch?

How hot does it run again relative to the iPhone SOC?
Can it run in the iPhone at the same speed as the iPad or will it be down clocked?


Then there is the speed question is the same clock for clock as the old iPhone SOC.

All these bright minds and I've haven't seen in any thread the answer to the simple question.
What does this all mean for the other iPhone OS devices?
 
Like I said in my last message this is pointless because once I disprove one lie you make up another.

I have, and would, never say that a wider bus cannot improve performance.



Says the guy whose done nothing but lie about what I have said.

BTW, where's the dies? You claim to have seen these dies... lets see the photos.



Man, what an ego you have! Your experience only became an issue when you brought it up, to try and justify your dishonest attacks against me.



Funny. When you start off by lying about people, you don't get to say the other guy is being impolite.

You should go away, though, and don't come back until you post pictures to these dies you claim to have seen and compared.

You seem to have no trouble posting links to obvious statements about memory architecture that were never in dispute.

How about defending what actually was?

Or are you only interested in disparaging me, telling lies and jacking off your own ego?

You have made yourself look so terrible and coky, so full of ego and vinegar that no one outside yourself would take a thing you say seriously. I am appalled by your actions on this forum and your blatant and wanton attack on someone who bested you in each and every response he posted - and he did it without resorting to your sophomoric language and posting style.

I do not care who is right or wrong on this subject but this guy is an attorney and CPU designer - yet you provide zero details about your alleged credentials. Funny how that works, huh? You made yourself look the part of a puffed-up child who was just proven wrong. You acted in such a way that was inappropriate and simply uncalled for. I read and re-read your posts and the responses to said posts and not once did I read a retort that put words in your mouth. You put them their and cannot take them back - and it shows just how petty you are. You should be yanked from this forum for being a grade-A inconsiderate poster who has little to no respect for others. You should be ashamed of yourself.

D
 
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