I'm an audiophile and want to improve my current iMac audio system

[herpaderp]

Real audiophiles never heard about Apogee! Real audiophiles will get B&W to custom make them a pair of near field. Real audiophiles also buy $1000 a piece power cable. Real audiophile will not use anything other then solid core pure silver cable.

Real music producer used only Apogee and protool ADC. Real producer use $30 balanced cable for everything. Real producer judge their mix on Genelac. Real producer use tube preamp because it add color to the vocal.
Do you see the difference?

Some records producers have recorded full albums on $50 4 track cassette recorders and some records have been recorded using B&W speakers and Classe amplifiers for monitoring (which are standard audiophile fare) http://www.classeaudio.com/html/abbeyroad-oct05.htm . There's a lot of nonsense in the audiophile community but it's not all hype. I'm sure that Abbey Road would have gladly used non-audiophile hardware if they thought it would be beneficial.

To be honest, I wouldn't necessarily recommend studio monitors to an audiophile. Studio monitors are mostly intended to give a perfectly flat response (sometimes at the expense of revealing detail) and to be incredibly reliable. In some ways, the most important thing for a studio engineer is that it doesn't break and that its good enough for him to hear what he needs to hear in order to get a good recording; if he misses some small details, it really doesn't matter all that much.

To be fair, a perfectly flat response doesn't always sound best either: depending on your taste in music, sometimes you'd like your system to give you a bit more treble or a bit more bass or more clarity in the mid-range.

Saying this, if the room isn't set up properly, none of this matters anyway.

Yes, a passable record could be recorded using an Apogee Duet but given the choice of better hardware (which certainly exists) you'd never find a professional audio engineer who'd choose to use it.

I mean, the Apogee Duet (or a few of them) would be perfect for these guys http://www.channelclassics.com/equipment/ but they chose to have a custom ADC produced.

Bear in mind that some studios have considerably lower budgets than some audiophiles and some genres have considerably less discerning listeners than others: if you're listening to a clipped and compressed Katy Perry track from a 128kbps AAC on iPod earbuds, you're not really going to care or notice how it's been recorded. If you're a classical fan and you've got good hardware (even if that's just a good set of headphones) you're not going to be too happy with a poor recording...

It's wrong to say that there's no difference in audio quality beyond a certain price level (I think that this is the point you're making). A professional sound engineer with a well trained ear can tell the difference.

 

[herpaderp]

Why spend the same amount to get a Dacmagic Plus that isn't audibly better? Also with the quality ADC in the Duet 2 you can use something like Room EQ Wizard. Sometimes its useful to have a way to record.

But he doesn't seem to have any intention of recording. He doesn't want an ADC or a combined DAC and ADC, he's really looking for a good USB DAC.

I don't know which of the the DacMagic Plus or the Apogee Duet sounds better; I've never seen a comparison. Moreover (unless you've done a side by side comparison), I don't see how you can claim that the DacMagic Plus isn't audibly better. I suggested the DacMagic Plus as an option, but I certainly didn't exclude the possibility that there better DACs out there (and this would, of course, include the Apogee Duet).

My point was that I'd be very, very surprised if the Apogee Duet would be cost effective as a DAC given that you're also paying for an ADC: ADCs and DACs are not cheap pieces of hardware and the Apogee Duet is a budget device.

In fact, I'd go as far as to say that the Apogee Duet is really more of an ADC than a DAC and so I'd expect it to include a (relatively) low quality DAC and have far more emphasis placed on the ADC component.

I was also really suggesting a DAC and headphone amplifier setup so the Room EQ Wizard (or similar) is unnecessary. Even if this wasn't the case, I'd still be cautious about using processing as (just about) any kind of processing will degrade the signal and reduce clarity in the process.

Maybe the Apogee Duet is a great product; I'm not saying it isn't but I think there's reason to be cautious. Everyone seems to be recommending it on marketing hype but little solid evidence (i.e. a comparison). At least something like a DacMagic or a Musical Fidelity M1 (both of which are dedicated USB DACs) come with glowing reviews from the audio press. I haven't seen any reviews of the Apogee Duet as by a knowledgeable audio journalist as a DAC: everyone reviews it as an ADC (which is arguably its main selling point) or as a combined DAC and ADC.

 

[zalo]

Maybe the Apogee Duet is a great product; I'm not saying it isn't but I think there's reason to be cautious. Everyone seems to be recommending it on marketing hype but little solid evidence (i.e. a comparison). At least something like a DacMagic or a Musical Fidelity M1 comes with glowing reviews from the audio press. I haven't seen any reviews of the Apogee Duet as by a knowledgeable audio journalist as a DAC: everyone reviews it as an ADC (which is arguably its main selling point).

Actually if you google Apogee Duet 2 DAC reviews you will find a lot of praise. I have seen it compared to multi thousand dollar DACs. The audio press loves it. I haven't seen a bad review for it yet, actually. Just because Cambridge Audio is charging the same price for a DAC as Apogee is charging for an AD/DA doesn't make it twice the quality. I am not suggesting it from the hype, have heard it and it sounds great. I have an RME FF400 since it was a bit better deal than an Apogee Ensemble, I needed all the analog ins/outs. I would suggest RME if they had anything south of a grand. But for the budget, Duet 2.

Also the day you need a quality input will be the day that you wish you got Apogee.

 

[herpaderp]

Actually if you google Apogee Duet 2 DAC reviews you will find a lot of praise. I have seen it compared to multi thousand dollar DACs. The audio press loves it. I haven't seen a bad review for it yet, actually. Just because Cambridge Audio is charging the same price for a DAC as Apogee is charging for an AD/DA doesn't make it twice the quality. I am not suggesting it from the hype, have heard it and it sounds great. I have an RME FF400 since it was a bit better deal than an Apogee Ensemble, I needed all the analog ins/outs. I would suggest RME if they had anything south of a grand. But for the budget, Duet 2.

Also the day you need a quality input will be the day that you wish you got Apogee.

Where though? Seriously, where are the comparisons? Where are the press reviews? Yes, it gets good reviews as an interface or as an ADC but no one mentions the DAC in any detail.

All I've been able to dig up is this: http://kenrockwell.com/audio/apogee/duet-2.htm and he performs measurements but doesn't really listen and doesn't really make any comparisons. All of Apogee's listed reviews http://www.apogeedigital.com/products/duet2-reviews.php look at it as an ADC and skip over the DAC part. Those that say anything about the DAC never compare it to anything else.

Meh. Maybe he'll just have to try it for size. Guess he's only asking for suggestions anyway.

 

[walkie]

Hi all!, thanks for posting, after reading all your comments, I decided to buy the built-in amplifier speakers and no to go with the option of a separate amplifier, that way I save money/space and it seems I won't sacrifice quality at all since they are supossed to have separate built-in amps per frequency range (active crossovers) and sounds better to me that way, on the other hand some people suggest a dedicate DAC, I have to evaluate if I really need the extra ADC that comes with the Apogee, it would be handy in the future if I decide to invest on a good Mic too. I also have an iPad and I might see some DAC's with iPad input, but I really prefer quality to functionally.

 

[herpaderp]

Just because Cambridge Audio is charging the same price for a DAC as Apogee is charging for an AD/DA doesn't make it twice the quality.

True. Some guy has reviewed both here (but no real listening tests and I don't know much about his credentials. He also reviews cars and cameras...):

http://kenrockwell.com/audio/cambridge/dacmagic-plus.htm

http://kenrockwell.com/audio/apogee/duet-2.htm

From the 2012 DacMagic review (btw, I don't own one of these):

"It has the highest performance of any DAC I've ever measured, and is among the least expensive. It's not the biggest, toughest, heaviest or most-impressive looking, but nothing outperforms it sonically. It's also one of the few DACs at any price to include an absolute polarity switch, as well as digital filter options. Not bad for $600!

It only has digital inputs so it's not really a preamp, but it does have four selectable inputs, a volume control and even a headphone output, so for many of us, it can be our master control center.

It does not have a remote control.

It has the best performance I've ever measured over USB of any DAC at any price. It's completely immune to even the slightest jitter that other excellent DACs can't remove from USB, as well as often the best performances I've measured for distortion. I installed no software, and magically it fed itself with 96 ksps audio via USB from iTunes on my Mac. "


I'm sure that Linn would contest the "nothing outperforms it sonically" claim...

From the 2011 Apogee Duet review:

"The Apogee Duet 2 is the world's best-sounding and most convenient computer DAC for desktop audio. It's also a professional monitor controller and headphone amplifier, and all sits on your desk with one big, beautiful knob for easy fingertip control.

As a professional instrument, it is intended only for use with professional (Apple) computers. It does not work with windows. Among the reasons it works so well is that its firmware gets inside and works seamlessly with the Core Audio of Apple's operating system.

On first listen, the Duet 2 immediately impressed with smooth, detailed powerful, dynamic and elegant natural sound. As a professional studio product, we're getting live in-studio sound with impact and solid, tight and potent deep bass. It adds no audible noise of its own over a huge volume control range, so music comes strongly out of inky black silence at any level setting. '

The important thing is how it sounds and the measurements wont tell you this.

There are other reviews (listening tests) here:

http://www.whathifi.com/reviews/accessories/dacs

 

[Newtoy]

Apogee is not a one horse staple. Duet 2 have an outstanding pedigree. Search for Big Ben, Rosetta and you know what Apogee is all about. Or look at those reviews:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Duet2/reviews
http://www.gearspace.com/board/music-computers/715356-apogee-duet-2-review.html
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/mar12/articles/apogee-duet.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/763739-REG/

I always trust user reviews from B&H. I once write a 1 star review there for a product and expected it to be deleted within hours. But it is still there after more then 1 year.

Or ask about it on www.gearspace.com, I am sure someone knowledgeable will answer all your question.

I would not spend anything more then the Duet 2 if all I need are 2 channels of outstanding DA converters. Is my RME UCX sound that much better? No, but it does have a lot more IOs and more importantly, iPad compatibility!

 

[lord patton]

Look into the audioquest dragonfly USB dongle asynchronous DAC.

http://www.head-fi.org/t/617241/audioquest-dragonfly-review-affordable-outstanding-tiny-dac-amp

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/audioquest-dragonfly-24-96-asynchronous-usb-dac-headphone-amp-12353/

 

[ChrisA]

Hi people, I'm wanting to improve my current audio system for my iMac, but I'm little confused about what to purchase, that's what I've been thinking about:

1) External audio card (don't know which one, need help) that fits my 21" iMac
2) A pair of amplified monitor speakers (need recommendation, I like Focal CMS65)

Lots has been written here but here is the answer is simple a I can make it

1) First and above all else what matters is the listening room and the geometry of the speakers, the walls and where you are located. Then what the wall and ceiling and floor are covered with. You are simply throwing money away if this is not taken care of.

2) The music must be stored in some lossless format. Apple Lossless, CDs, FLAC or what ever. Again it is a total waste of money if the source is an MP3 file

The two above items are the most important. No amount of expensive gear can fix a problem with the two above items. So this done we can get to gear.

3) You r"sound card" is called and "audio interface" and yo should expect to pay about $150 for the very good "studio quality" interface. USB is good. It is pointless to get one that can play high bit rates if your music is not high bit rate. however most good interfaces can do this. I like this one, but there are others http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AudioBoxUSB/
ANything made by a well known pro-audio company like this is OK.

4) next you get speakers that are suitable for your listening area. How much volume do you need? What is the distance from speaker to you? I can't recommend a brand but I don't have to because this is no different from any other non-computer based stereo setup.


One last thing, very important: ALL the software volume controls need to be at 100%. COntrol the volum back to listenable levels with an ANALOG volume control. The Reason is simple, all digital volume control reduce the dynamic rang.because they reduce the volume by multiplying the samples by a number between one and zero. You are basically tossing out bits

So in terms of gear this means that whatever you get needs a big volume knob on it.

----------

Hi all!, thanks for posting, after reading all your comments, I decided to buy the built-in amplifier speakers and no to go with the option of a separate amplifier, that way I save money/space and it seems I won't sacrifice quality at all since they are supossed to have separate built-in amps per frequency range (active crossovers) and sounds better to me that way, on the other hand some people suggest a dedicate DAC, I have to evaluate if I really need the extra ADC that comes with the Apogee, it would be handy in the future if I decide to invest on a good Mic too. I also have an iPad and I might see some DAC's with iPad input, but I really prefer quality to functionally.

There are many other brands of audio interface than Apogee. If all you are diing is playback and you are not recording you are wasting much money on Apogee. I really dislike the way the Apogee Duet uses one knob for multiple functions and the way is uses dongles to attach cables. Ty plugging headphones and monitors and a pair of mics into the thing and then setting levels with one knob. Very poor user interface to say the least

 

[walkie]

Lots has been written here but here is the answer is simple a I can make it

1) First and above all else what matters is the listening room and the geometry of the speakers, the walls and where you are located. Then what the wall and ceiling and floor are covered with. You are simply throwing money away if this is not taken care of.

Good point, I know this is important, the location of the audio speakers makes a huge difference as well as the forniture you have in there interferes with sound.

2) The music must be stored in some lossless format. Apple Lossless, CDs, FLAC or what ever. Again it is a total waste of money if the source is an MP3 file

This is true, the main problem with it is that I rely on dowloaded stuff, so it would costly re-buy everything I have on a lossless format files since I have no CD's I can rip off from, only MP3 and AAC, as best bit rate as posible, even having original CD's the music's quality is already compromised since CD's are a digital downgraded copy from the original master and most of them are brickwalled these days causing audio distortion.

3) You r"sound card" is called and "audio interface" and yo should expect to pay about $150 for the very good "studio quality" interface. USB is good. It is pointless to get one that can play high bit rates if your music is not high bit rate. however most good interfaces can do this. I like this one, but there are others http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/AudioBoxUSB/
ANything made by a well known pro-audio company like this is OK.

Good point, I think everything I have doesn't go further than 44.1Khz sampling rate which is the standart CD quality.

4) next you get speakers that are suitable for your listening area. How much volume do you need? What is the distance from speaker to you? I can't recommend a brand but I don't have to because this is no different from any other non-computer based stereo setup.

I want the speakers to fill a little room with sound, but let's be honest most of time I'll be sitting in front of them to listen to music, I need decent volume since sometimes I like to listen to music at high volume with friends at home.

One last thing, very important: ALL the software volume controls need to be at 100%. COntrol the volum back to listenable levels with an ANALOG volume control. The Reason is simple, all digital volume control reduce the dynamic rang.because they reduce the volume by multiplying the samples by a number between one and zero. You are basically tossing out bits

So in terms of gear this means that whatever you get needs a big volume knob on it.

----------

I didn't know this, I like the most analog volume jogs wheels than digital ones, but this you wrote is a really interesting explanation i don't wanna miss a single bit.

There are many other brands of audio interface than Apogee. If all you are diing is playback and you are not recording you are wasting much money on Apogee. I really dislike the way the Apogee Duet uses one knob for multiple functions and the way is uses dongles to attach cables. Ty plugging headphones and monitors and a pair of mics into the thing and then setting levels with one knob. Very poor user interface to say the least

I think Apogee was intended as a portable solution, most of the time my DAC will be resting on my desk, so I think I can save money and buy a solo DAC with more confortable controls.





Thanks a lot for your advice!!!

 

[Newtoy]

Be very careful about DAC/ADC quality. i hava been there and lot of money wasted on some noteable productS.

My 1st high quality sound card. A M-Audio (now part of AVID, Pro Tools) Delta 66. Its sound good. But the driver always give me problem. After 1 full year of ownership and the driver still not working 100%, I gave up and moved to The Motu 828. The driver for the Motu is second to none. Sound quality was not very good. But at least it didn't tried to kill my monitors with all the sudden loud crackle. One year gone by and its analogue volume control start giving up. I then got a Motu 828 Mk2. Sound the same old average. But the whole unit just die in about 2 years. I then go cheap and get an even lower grade Motu unit, but it sound like garbage! I live with that for 2 more years until the original Duet arrived. With it I heard a lot more fine detail in the music that I missed for so long. And this thing just kept working. In its 3rd brithday. I got another one for my macmini that act as a PVR and iTune box.

There are a lot more then a simple chipset to the sound quality. One the Motu, there is a very simpe analogue stage that kill all the fidility. When you look at the Audioquest product mentioned on another post. I feel that I can disqualify it right away, how do an analogue circuit drive both a headphone and a line output at the same connector? They are of total difference impedance! How do 500mW provide enough power to drive a decent DAC and a headphone amp at the same time? Its all sound too good to be true!

 

[walkie]

Be very careful about DAC/ADC quality. i hava been there and lot of money wasted on some noteable productS.

My 1st high quality sound card. A M-Audio (now part of AVID, Pro Tools) Delta 66. Its sound good. But the driver always give me problem. After 1 full year of ownership and the driver still not working 100%, I gave up and moved to The Motu 828. The driver for the Motu is second to none. Sound quality was not very good. But at least it didn't tried to kill my monitors with all the sudden loud crackle. One year gone by and its analogue volume control start giving up. I then got a Motu 828 Mk2. Sound the same old average. But the whole unit just die in about 2 years. I then go cheap and get an even lower grade Motu unit, but it sound like garbage! I live with that for 2 more years until the original Duet arrived. With it I heard a lot more fine detail in the music that I missed for so long. And this thing just kept working. In its 3rd brithday. I got another one for my macmini that act as a PVR and iTune box.

There are a lot more then a simple chipset to the sound quality. One the Motu, there is a very simpe analogue stage that kill all the fidility. When you look at the Audioquest product mentioned on another post. I feel that I can disqualify it right away, how do an analogue circuit drive both a headphone and a line output at the same connector? They are of total difference impedance! How do 500mW provide enough power to drive a decent DAC and a headphone amp at the same time? Its all sound too good to be true!

Hi Newtoy, I know that's true, sometimes some products are more prone to "planned obsolence" than others and get broken easily, not only what's inside matters but also the quality of external controls, outputs etc..., I will stay away from a DAC that offers an all-in-one output, you're right when you say the impedance is not equal for speakers and headphones. Fortunately nowadays we count on internet reviews, and we can read what people say from their own experiencies (like yours) before buying a product.

what do you people think about this one:

http://www.echoaudio.com//Products/FireWire/AudioFire4/index.php

Thanks.

 

[oxfordguy]

Hi Newtoy, I know that's true, sometimes some products are more prone to "planned obsolence" than others and get broken easily, not only what's inside matters but also the quality of external controls, outputs etc..., I will stay away from a DAC that offers an all-in-one output, you're right when you say the impedance is not equal for speakers and headphones. Fortunately nowadays we count on internet reviews, and we can read what people say from their own experiencies (like yours) before buying a product.

what do you people think about this one:

http://www.echoaudio.com//Products/FireWire/AudioFire4/index.php

Thanks.

I've got this, the sound quality is excellent for the price (especially as I actually bought mine used off eBay for a little over £100...) and driver support is very good. It's been around for at least 4 years now, but is still considered to be a good audio interface and the latest driver update was this year.

The only issues that I have with it might be - its firewire, though definitely better than USB 1.1 (and arguably USB 2.0), Apple are phasing out Firewire ports on its notebook line up and perhaps on iMacs too eventually, though there is a Thunderbolt to Firewire adaptor available, which I have. Also there is no dedicated physical gain knob - only trim knobs for inputs and a headphone level knob, though my Blue Sky Exo2 system has a big physical gain knob, so this isn't really an issue for me, also the mixer software is very good and let's you configure the inputs/outputs well.

The build quality of the unit itself is well made and robust and the aluminium enclosure aesthetically matches my Macbook Air well

There's a review of it on the respected Sound on Sound magazine here: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may07/articles/echoaudiofire4.htm

EDIT: it also supports to sets of stereo outputs, which is great if you want to monitor something whilst something else is playing e.g. cueing up the next track - essential for DJing, but useful even just preparing what to play next for a group of friends.

 

[walkie]

I've got this, the sound quality is excellent for the price (especially as I actually bought mine used off eBay for a little over £100...) and driver support is very good. It's been around for at least 4 years now, but is still considered to be a good audio interface and the latest driver update was this year.

The only issues that I have with it might be - its firewire, though definitely better than USB 1.1 (and arguably USB 2.0), Apple are phasing out Firewire ports on its notebook line up and perhaps on iMacs too eventually, though there is a Thunderbolt to Firewire adaptor available, which I have. Also there is no dedicated physical gain knob - only trim knobs for inputs and a headphone level knob, though my Blue Sky Exo2 system has a big physical gain knob, so this isn't really an issue for me, also the mixer software is very good and let's you configure the inputs/outputs well.

The build quality of the unit itself is well made and robust and the aluminium enclosure aesthetically matches my Macbook Air well

There's a review of it on the respected Sound on Sound magazine here: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may07/articles/echoaudiofire4.htm

EDIT: it also supports to sets of stereo outputs, which is great if you want to monitor something whilst something else is playing e.g. cueing up the next track - essential for DJing, but useful even just preparing what to play next for a group of friends.

Yes, I realised that unfortunately it doesn't have a gain knob, someone above wrote that is important to have an analog volume because according to him software-driven volume compresses the digital signal. I find it nice that I can listen to a track on the headphones whilst playing other track since I use from time to time DJ software, thanks for your post.

 

[oxfordguy]

Yes, I realised that unfortunately it doesn't have a gain knob, someone above wrote that is important to have an analog volume because according to him software-driven volume compresses the digital signal.

BTW be aware that the physical gain knob on quite a few audio interfaces also works in this way, so just because a device may have a physical knob, it doesn't necessarily mean its going to sound any better...

In any case, I don't think the lack of a "real" gain control should be a deal breaker, its more important to have good source files and a good DAC and general quality of other components in the audio interface.

BTW the AudioFire supports balanced inputs and outputs, which not everything does - useful if the amp/system that you're outputting to supports these (my Blue Sky Exo2 system does...)

I find it nice that I can listen to a track on the headphones whilst playing other track since I use from time to time DJ software, thanks for your post.

No worries, glad to be of help

 

[Newtoy]

Yes, I realised that unfortunately it doesn't have a gain knob, someone above wrote that is important to have an analog volume because according to him software-driven volume compresses the digital signal. I find it nice that I can listen to a track on the headphones whilst playing other track since I use from time to time DJ software, thanks for your post.

I actually prefer to use the volume control on the keyboard. (You have to set everything else right of cause!) But not all driver support that. RME driver doesn't. I don't like real analogue volume control anyway, they developed problem over time. But most of the volume knob are digital now.

I don't think you can listen to one track on the headphone while playing other track on the speaker unless your software support the sound card directly (core audio). iTune cannot do that. DJ software may be.

Echo was well known some years ago. But it seem to be less popular now a day. I never used one, so I cannot comment.

 

[oxfordguy]

I don't think you can listen to one track on the headphone while playing other track on the speaker unless your software support the sound card directly (core audio). iTune cannot do that. DJ software may be.

That's correct, you can't do this in iTunes, but there's other software readily available that can e.g. Traktor Pro 2
(not free, but only €79 and is about the best DJ software there is, except perhaps Serato Scratch, but that needs additional hardware) or for free there's Mixxx, which is okay.

 

[marzer]

I want the speakers to fill a little room with sound, but let's be honest most of time I'll be sitting in front of them to listen to music, I need decent volume since sometimes I like to listen to music at high volume with friends at home.

For good sound quality in and out of the room I prefer the speakers not be on the desk. For this reason I'd recommend a good set of amplified speakers w/Toslink input and an Airport Express. Then you can place the speakers ideally in the room (or any room) and crank them even when working at your desk.

 

[oxfordguy]

For good sound quality in and out of the room I prefer the speakers not be on the desk. For this reason I'd recommend a good set of amplified speakers w/Toslink input and an Airport Express. Then you can place the speakers ideally in the room (or any room) and crank them even when working at your desk.

Its not so bad if the speakers you're using are primarily meant to be near-field monitors, like my Exo2 system. Its also depends on the size of your listening room...

BTW I forgot to say, whilst the Echo AudioFire4 is a great audio interface, if you ever want to use it with a Macbook Air via the new Thunderbolt to Firewire adaptor, that doesn't seem to provide enough power to bus power the unit, so you need to use the external power supply, as I discovered recently. It's a bit of an annoyance, but I can live with it.