You must be referring to my comment. Look at it again. Read what you said. Something about it "slipping out" at inopportune moments.
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I'm going to stop cursing/swearing/cussing
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You must be referring to my comment. Look at it again. Read what you said. Something about it "slipping out" at inopportune moments.
And yet you disprove your own point in the very same paragraph.I think "you're an ignorant, myopic ignoramous" sounds much funnier and exhibits more thought than "*** you, you're an *******". It certainly catches my attention much more (despite being redundant and repetitive
I swore off (!) swearing about 11 years ago (well, I guess that depends on your definition of swear words, but definitely no s--- or f----). At first I kept catching myself, but it becomes a habit and eventually I don't even think about it. I don't know what would blurt out of my mouth if I stubbed my toe, but I know what it definitely WON'T be.
I did it for a couple of reasons. I do work with kids and youth in a leadership capacity, and so I try to present a good example (a higher standard, I guess), and it also makes a good object lesson when I deal with kids who swear excessively and need to learn to tone it down. (I don't particularly appreciate hearing it, but I don't mind the odd word slipping out here and there. But there reaches a point where I say, "Ok, that's enough".) Anyone who tells me "it's impossible, I can't help it" hears my story.
Besides, anyone can use the "usual" swear words... it's a fun opportunity to find more colorful, humorous phrases to replace them with (e.g. "frack" for you BSG fans). I like your example, actually
I notice it's much harder to keep it down after watching profanity-filled movies or hanging out with people that swear a lot. Repeatable phrases start rattling around in my head, and are that much closer to popping out of my mouth. I guess it really is "garbage in, garbage out."
That's not quite what I said...I would not disagree that it catches a person's attention a bit more, but profanity is something that the average person has, and whether you realise it or not, sometimes speaking at a ridiculously high "level" of vocabulary, if you wish to use it that way, is not only bad, but actually insulting to the people you're talking to. Lenny Bruce was one of the greatest comedians in history, and he used profanity a lot, to make points about the way we think about the world, and to question things. Profanity does not = dumb, and that is the main point I'm trying to express.
The reason I wouldn't swear in front of someone's kid is the same reason I don't want someone telling my child Jesus, Muhammad, or Ba'al, is Lord. It's not so much that I won't swear in front of a kid because I think it's wrong, it's because I refrain from it, because I don't feel right changing something that their parent may or may not be raising them with. I also do swear in front of my mom, and would swear in front of any one of those people, if I knew them personally, and knew it did not bother them. We know for a fact the president swears; he's done it on national television. I suppose level of words, the way I was using it, was slightly misunderstood. No word is inherently better than another word, and that's what I meant, but in our language, there are those very common words, and the not-so-common words. They're all words, and the only thing that makes one "higher" or "lower" than another is a completely arbitrary guideline.
I understand where you're coming from, and I understand how my point is trying to be undermined by comparing Dr. Seuss to Shakespeare, but that's really not my point. Here's a better example than the Myopic ignoramous one...Neither of these sound "educated," per se, but which gets the point across better, and sounds more "mature." (depending on how you're using it): "You're a stupid poopie head." or "You're a dumb ****."
There are times and places for every word. I wouldn't use floccinaucinihilipilification in a letter to my grandma, and I wouldn't say "**** the mother ****ing bitch ass mother ****ers" in front of my principal (or that sentence, I probably wouldn't say anywhere, except in this sort of context). But like I said initially, it's nothing about trying to get you to change your mind..I absolutely commend you 100% for this dedication. Just sharing my thoughts
Edit: By the way, I agree with Blue Velvet's comment!
Oh! All this conversation reminded me of a story..
Last year, in one of my classes, I wrote a paper on the superstition of profanity and why it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Stuff like we're discussing right now, though slightly different...And I had a few examples in certain places, nothing too extreme, but, anyways...I turn it in, and the teacher calls me up, and I think this is the funniest, yet dumbest thing I've ever heard...He says:
"Dustin, I agree with you 100% on your points about censorship...but I'm going to have to ask you to take these swear words out."
I did it anyways, though, and it gives me a good laugh. Anyways, just sharing that.
Last year, in one of my classes, I wrote a paper on the superstition of profanity and why it's not as bad as people make it out to be. Stuff like we're discussing right now, though slightly different...And I had a few examples in certain places, nothing too extreme, but, anyways...I turn it in, and the teacher calls me up, and I think this is the funniest, yet dumbest thing I've ever heard...He says:
"Dustin, I agree with you 100% on your points about censorship...but I'm going to have to ask you to take these swear words out."
I did it anyways, though, and it gives me a good laugh. Anyways, just sharing that.
If a person is really trying to swear off swearing for whatever reason (other than avoiding frustrating parental efforts), how effective are euphamisms really? Just because someone uses frick or frack or flip or any other the countless replacements I have heard, doesn't mean that they have taken the time to give their thoughts and time more respect and effort. Violating the spirit of the effort is the cowardly way to comply with the letter of the effort (except as noted above).
I have noticed that as I have worked to control my language, I have found that I have learned to exercise greater controln over my emotions. I can cite no stat or study, but it seems that we have had more rage and temper-contol-leading-to-violence as people have become more accepting of swearing. Quickly enough I even noticed that the "need" to swear has disappeared - I tend to wear my comments on my sleeve and try to avoid euphamisms in speech, and my language has been clean for quite a long time.
I have noticed that as I have worked to control my language, I have found that I have learned to exercise greater controln over my emotions. I can cite no stat or study, but it seems that we have had more rage and temper-contol-leading-to-violence as people have become more accepting of swearing. Quickly enough I even noticed that the "need" to swear has disappeared - I tend to wear my comments on my sleeve and try to avoid euphamisms in speech, and my language has been clean for quite a long time.
I've still never understood why some words are bad and some aren't. Poop is completely acceptable. Crap is mostly acceptable, and sh*t usually isn't acceptable, even though they all mean the same thing. They're all words, what's the big 'effing deal?
And I also don't get why the c-word is one of the worst words you can say. A coworker of mine and I were talking the other day about a frequent customer none of us really like, and my coworker (female) said something along the lines of "Yeah, she can be a bit of a bitch sometimes." And I said "Bitch is an understatement, she's more of a word that begins with c and rhymes with runt" (I said that, I didn't say the actual word because I know some people don't like it) and my coworker said that I should never say that word because it's really offensive and that if I said it, she'd slap me (jokingly, of course). But what I still don't get, is why is it OK to call someone a bitch, but not that other word?
Anyways, back on topic, more power to you if you can stop swearing. I'll increase my swearing to cover for your lack of it
And I also don't get why the c-word is one of the worst words you can say. A coworker of mine and I were talking the other day about a frequent customer none of us really like, and my coworker (female) said something along the lines of "Yeah, she can be a bit of a bitch sometimes." And I said "Bitch is an understatement, she's more of a word that begins with c and rhymes with runt" (I said that, I didn't say the actual word because I know some people don't like it) and my coworker said that I should never say that word because it's really offensive and that if I said it, she'd slap me (jokingly, of course). But what I still don't get, is why is it OK to call someone a bitch, but not that other word?
Anyways, back on topic, more power to you if you can stop swearing. I'll increase my swearing to cover for your lack of it
This is an important point. If anyone here has seen Penn and Teller ********'s episode on Profanity, Penn makes a good point with a little chihuaha. It's the words you use, not the words you don't use. You can speak in a very calm manner to a dog saying the words, "hey you little pig ****er, I'm gonna cut you up and eat you later." and the dog thinks nothing of it, and you can scream "I LOVE YOU, DOG!" at the top of your voice, and the dog will be frightened. Sure, it is just a dog, but context is everything. Many jokes would not be the same without profanity, and many sentences would not be the same without profanity, whether people like them or not. They are tools. If anyone has seen the Aristocrats, it was the number one movie on Amazon for 8 weeks. It's a documentary, and besides being about the world's dirtiest joke, there's a much deeper message. That's a bit off-topic, but some people think the joke itself is funny, and some don't. It's improvisation, which whether profane or not, is an art form, and can be a lot of fun. It's also fun to push people to their limits, and even past their limits. I mean, come on, there's nothing like talking about Armadillos putting their ******* in young girls' ***** while skating in **** and **** and *** and blood, to make someone loosen up a bit
We're not telling you that you should start using words with a minimum of nine letters; we're saying that using words with offensive and/or vulgar connotations and denotations is not the best way of expressing thoughts.
So are you suggesting that: a) all words are equal; and b) their connotations and denotations are useless? I'm sorry, but wake up. Words have different denotations and connotations, and some words are either too offensive or too vulgar. That's not my opinion; that's the world's general opinion. Each word has a different meaning.
Well, the way you initially stated your point led me to believe that you think all words are equal, and since then, I assume that is what you're saying to us.
Both of those sound bad.
Actually, sometimes it is. Any form of language can be appropriate given the situation you're in. Who is anyone here to tell others how to express themselves?
I would argue that those who can't trust themselves to swear in the right circumstances are emotionally constipated.
I ****ing second that.Best laugh I've had all day
I don't think I can give up cursing, I do it all the time. I can switch it off temporarily, like when I'm around my parents, but at school, I swear like a lumberjack. Not around teachers, though.
We're not telling you that you should start using words with a minimum of nine letters; we're saying that using words with offensive and/or vulgar connotations and denotations is not the best way of expressing thoughts.
So are you suggesting that: a) all words are equal; and b) their connotations and denotations are useless? I'm sorry, but wake up. Words have different denotations and connotations, and some words are either too offensive or too vulgar. That's not my opinion; that's the world's general opinion. Each word has a different meaning.
Well, the way you initially stated your point led me to believe that you think all words are equal, and since then, I assume that is what you're saying to us.
Both of those sound bad.
And I'm telling you that profanity is a superstition that changes over time, and that your divine word doesn't change the fact that sometimes profanity is the way to get your point across.
No, I'm saying these things that make these words "higher" or "lower" is a completely arbitrary guideline. Given, language itself is arbitrary when you dig deep enough, but, less than 100 years ago, you couldn't say breast, now you can. Language changes, profanity changes, and the only reason it exists is because it has shock value. You tell a person not to scream something in a protest, they do it because it gets a point across. I don't care how much you tell me the sentences "You're an idiot," and "You're a ****ing idiot" have the same meaning, it's not true. And don't tell me I should say "You're an enormous idiot" or even "You're a ****." None of those sentences say the same thing, and if those sentences were what I wanted to say, I'd say them in the first place.
And all politicians sound bad, but yet people choose the lesser of two evils every day (I don't, but others do). It goes back to my initial point that we're not in kindergarten. And not everybody is in bioethics class. I don't remember if it was you or someone else who said that an intelligent person knows to hold back their language, or something to that nature, but I disagree 100%. An intelligent person knows language, and knows when and where to use that language. I don't use the term contradisestablishmentarianistically in conversations with my friends, and I don't use **** in my world history class. I understand that profanity isn't generally accepted by society (even though I'd be willing to bet my macbook that a very large majority of the population uses it), but that doesn't change the validity of my points. Your points about connotation and denotation doesn't do anything but support my claims. Denotation point: Crap, poop, and **** all mean the same thing, yet only one is considered vulgar. Connotation point: Saying "That's ****ing ridiculous" sends a different, generally stronger point to the person hearing it than "that's ridiculous", whether good or bad. Whether or not the connotation is positive or negative on the receiving end has absolutely nothing to do with the word's place in the language.
Unless I misunderstand where you see the contradiction, I believe the contrast there is that in the first one, she doesn't think you or her or me or anyone can tell someone else their words aren't legitimate because they're vulgar, and in the second example, she is arguing that if you don't swear only because you buy into the whole superstitious part, you are crippling yourself. That's certainly not to say there aren't good reasons to give up profanity; if it's not what you use to get a certain point across, okay, but there is no such thing as a "better way" to say something, as connotation dictates that each word in and of itself has a specific reaction depending on the individual, so no word could replace another word if that original word was the exact emotion you wanted to convey. I could be wrong, though. Maybe Blue can clarify?
Agreed. I find my parents don't listen to me unless I use words that upset them to some degree.
So are you suggesting that one must be antagonising for his/her point to get across?
God, stop being ridiculous. Stop twisting my words. Profanity does always equal antagonisation. And sometimes it's appropriate to be antagonising to get the point across. Ever tried to tell someone they have anger issues? How would you show them? Exactly, by antagonising them. I'm saying that using a profanity adds a meaning to a sentence, and gets a certain point across, in different situations, that you can't get from another sentence. Can you come close? Probably. But if the speaker intended to have his sentence be "You're piece of ****," and not "You're a moron." Where do you have the divine say to step in and tell him his sentence is not legitimate? Stop saying I'm saying stuff I'm not. There are many ways to use profanity, and many places where it's useful/wanted/needed, so stop acting like it's this set-in-stone word that just automatically has no place because it's that word.
ummm...is damn considered a bad word (wait, can i say that on here?) should i say darn with a r=m? i am confused, what should i do?
It really depends. Analyse the situation for yourself, decide: "Is saying damn (which for some reason is considered profane while darn isn) going to twist this situation in a way I don't want it to?" If you're among friends, or whoever, just say damn. It's really a matter of superstition. Denotatively, they mean the same thing. It's really a matter of what you're trying to say. Basically: If you want to, swear, if you don't want to, don't. It's really as simple as that. It's not censored here on Macrumors
Unless of course you were asking a rhetorical question to make a point, in which case, nevermind.
Unless of course you were asking a rhetorical question to make a point, in which case, nevermind.
So, if that truly is the best and only way to express yourself, do you monitor whom you say that to and if he/she will take offense to it for find it vulgar?
Why do you say that?
hmmm ziggy... i think you caught on.
Why do you say that?
what bothers me:
these words only have power that individual and society allow to be applied to them. (their connotations and negative value) i think that we put such restrictions on language is ridiculous.
these words only have power that individual and society allow to be applied to them. (their connotations and negative value) i think that we put such restrictions on language is ridiculous.
This is a good point.
iMacZealot, the fact that you don't bother reading my posts, and keep making things up and pretending I say them, shows me you're obviously the one not ready for a basic debate. You want to talk about proper English? Learn how not to use strawman arguments first. I told you a million times it's not the only appropriate use of language, only that if the person's desire was to have the meaning that comes through when using profanity, that you can't change that. If you want to interpret that as "profanity is the only form of speech that gets a point across." then so be it. My points still stand. For now, I'm closing my half of the debates; people can decide for themselves based on reading.
hmmm ziggy... i think you caught on.
Caught on? I haven't changed my point at all this entire time, only re-worded things and added things for clarification.
totally agree.
besides, I think the world is a funnier place with 'bad' words. damn it.
Bingo! I like cussing.
It relieves stress and if it makes me seem trashy, all the better! I had a friend in school (way back when) who told me how he broke the habit. He was friends with a jock who was much bigger and tougher than he was, and he asked the jock to kick him as hard as he could in the seat of the pants anytime he cursed. He said it only took one time!