I'm New To Mac, Couple Basic Questions

jack0545

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Jun 7, 2005
18
0
In windows there you can right click on a folder and cut it and place it somewhere else. Is there no way to cut a folder on mac? Do I need to copy the folder someplace and then go back and erace the original?

Also, I'm on a G5 2.0 but it doesn't seem to be performing optimally. For instance, sometimes copying a folder, or uploading images from my camera take a REALLY long time. Is there a version of 'defragmenting' for Mac?
 

dmbfloydian

macrumors member
Jan 11, 2004
33
0
Syracuse, NY
instead of cut and paste i usually open drag the folder to the desktop then drag it to the new window of the location you want it.

as for performance, i hope you have at least 512 ram, any less and you'll see a difference. there is no defrag for mac, its not needed as far as i know.
 

mischief

macrumors 68030
Aug 1, 2001
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Santa Cruz Ca
jack0545 said:
In windows there you can right click on a folder and cut it and place it somewhere else. Is there no way to cut a folder on mac? Do I need to copy the folder someplace and then go back and erace the original?

Also, I'm on a G5 2.0 but it doesn't seem to be performing optimally. For instance, sometimes copying a folder, or uploading images from my camera take a REALLY long time. Is there a version of 'defragmenting' for Mac?
There are several options. Rather than list them all here I recommend using the Finder's Help menu on this topic.

Norton Utilities has an excellent suite capable of defragmenting your HD. Just make sure it's current, updated and that the drive isn't failing... nothing quite like an extensive and intensive drive-action to kill a dying drive off.
 

yellow

Moderator emeritus
Oct 21, 2003
15,925
1
Portland, OR
jack0545 said:
In windows there you can right click on a folder and cut it and place it somewhere else. Is there no way to cut a folder on mac? Do I need to copy the folder someplace and then go back and erace the original?
Tiger (don't have Panther to check) has integrated the Windows Copy & Paste of files/folders. But it does not support Cut & Paste. Traditionally, the Mac OS uses a Drag & Drop philosophy to move data in this way. It's just something you'll have to get used to.

jack0545 said:
Also, I'm on a G5 2.0 but it doesn't seem to be performing optimally. For instance, sometimes copying a folder, or uploading images from my camera take a REALLY long time. Is there a version of 'defragmenting' for Mac?
No need for defrag software. The OS defrags on the fly. In order to really say much about this, we'd have to know more about what you're doing. Copying a folder from where to where? Downloading images from your camera, you mean? Which camera? How are you downloading them? How big are they and how many are we talking about?

Is there a notion of processor speed in your Energy Saver prefpane?
 

peterparker

macrumors regular
Mar 12, 2005
247
0
Houston
It is usually done by dragging the item to where you want it. This is made less tedious through spring-loaded folders. When you drag the item and hover over a folder it will open the folder after a short delay. I had the same issue when first using OS X, but now I really like the spring-loaded behavior.
 

yellow

Moderator emeritus
Oct 21, 2003
15,925
1
Portland, OR
mischief said:
Norton Utilities has an excellent suite capable of defragmenting your HD.
No, no, no! Please don't recommend this! Do not use any Symantec disk utilities on an OS X based Mac. They cause much more harm than they help. Norton's time of legacy died with OS 9. As I said, the OS defrags on the fly, so it's not needed. If you still feel like you must do this (some people just cannot get over the need of doing 'maintenance' on their disks.), Tech Tool Pro has a defrag capability.
 

mischief

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Aug 1, 2001
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Santa Cruz Ca
yellow said:
No, no, no! Please don't recommend this! Do not use any Symantec disk utilities on an OS X based Mac. They cause much more harm than they help. Norton's time of legacy died with OS 9. As I said, the OS defrags on the fly, so it's not needed. If you still feel like you must do this (some people just cannot get over the need of doing 'maintenance' on their disks.), Tech Tool Pro has a defrag capability.
Bull****. I've used Norton extensively on several dozen OS X Macs and it works FINE.

I can definitely tell you that OS X does not, in fact defrag on the fly. Not up to and including Panther anyway. It does use a logged file system and has on-the-fly indexing but NOT on-the-fly defrag.

Techtool's defrag tool is incredibly slow and doesn't do dick beyond the directories. Sure, you'll have nice, contiguous directories but your files will still be swiss cheese. It's a great HW diagnostic tool but it's Disk Utilities BLOW CHUNKS.

Trust me. I've been doing this sort of thing for my own machines and for paying clients for several years now and Norton's really the only way to go if you're serious. You just have to use the current version and NOT attempt to use an old version on a new OS.

The only other trick is to install it onto a FW or second internal boot disk so that you can keep it up to date. Using the CD is slower and inherently cannot be updated.
 

yellow

Moderator emeritus
Oct 21, 2003
15,925
1
Portland, OR
mischief said:
I can definitely tell you that OS X does not, in fact defrag on the fly. Not up to and including Panther anyway. It does use a logged file system and has on-the-fly indexing but NOT on-the-fly defrag/
It was introduced in Panther.

About disk optimization with Mac OS X
Fragmentation was often caused by continually appending data to existing files, especially with resource forks. With faster hard drives and better caching, as well as the new application packaging format, many applications simply rewrite the entire file each time. Mac OS X 10.3 Panther can also automatically defragment such slow-growing files. This process is sometimes known as "Hot-File-Adaptive-Clustering."
I have read countless threads on Mac help sites of people having troubles with Norton Futilities and Norton System Wreaks. Tons. I had an overzealous lab manager who installed Futilities on all the Macs in his lab and they were nothing but trouble for him until I came in the removed Futilities completely. Perhaps booting from a Norton CD and using the utils is safe, but installing them is definitely not. Personally, I refuse to use Norton products on any of my supported Macs since moving to OS X.

Original Poster, before choosing a disk utility, please do some research on some of the major Mac support sites about suggested utils. I'll leave it at that.
 

mischief

macrumors 68030
Aug 1, 2001
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Santa Cruz Ca
yellow said:
It was introduced in Panther.

About disk optimization with Mac OS X


I have read countless threads on Mac help sites of people having troubles with Norton Futilities and Norton System Wreaks. Tons. I had an overzealous lab manager who installed Futilities on all the Macs in his lab and they were nothing but trouble for him until I came in the removed Futilities completely. Perhaps booting from a Norton CD and using the utils is safe, but installing them is definitely not. Personally, I refuse to use Norton products on any of my supported Macs since moving to OS X.

Original Poster, before choosing a disk utility, please do some research on some of the major Mac support sites about suggested utils. I'll leave it at that.
What you're talking about in OS X isn't so much defragmentation as minor maintenance. What I support are mainly machines in which huge numbers of files are continuously being created, deleted, moved, duplicated, networked, etc. This is on machines that cannot be left on in the way that servers usually are and the businesses are too small to support a server-based maintenance structure. In my instance periodic agressive defrag is essential. Plus, As I recall these sorts of maintenance routines suffer the same limitations as the automated CRON scripting: IE they don't work on sleeping machines or in the background unless you fiddle with their schedule via Terminal.

I do not count horror stories on forums as adequate evidence of Norton's instability or destructiveness. Most users have no idea what they're doing and whip out Norton only after their machines are FUBAR. Most folks will also keep using the same Norton long after it should have been replaced and then wonder what went wrong.

The only time I've ever seen Norton unrecoverably kill a drive was when the drive head was failing anyway so the defrag resulted in a DOA boot block and unreliable read/write while attempting the fix.

Please note that I do not recommend installing Norton on your main system unless you know it intimately and know how to use it effectively installed.

I do, however recommend installing it onto a secondary boot drive so that it can be updated before use.
 

decksnap

macrumors 68040
Apr 11, 2003
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Norton is horrible in OS X. It can cause many, many problems. There is no need for it to be installed on the system. This is not OS 9.
 

mischief

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Aug 1, 2001
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Santa Cruz Ca
yellow said:
Sounds good. We'll just have to agree to disagree. :)
Yeah... see that's exactly the problem with disk utilities. There are so damn few of them and so few of those that do ANYTHING that there's really just two camps.

I've tried Micromat's Drive 10 (Dangerous and useless), Diskwarrior (fast but useless), Norton (Powerful, useful but allows Newbies too much latitude) and Techtool (Great HW diagnostics but terrible Disk Utilities).

I have come to the conclusion that if I'm going to use 1 tool for file/disk issues it'll be a current copy of Norton on a FW drive that I watch like a hawk while it's running. That FW drive has both Norton v9.1.n for disk utility use and Techtool Pro 4.0.3 installed for use in diagnostics, but it's NOT my main drive. Honestly the most-used utility is Apple's Disk Utility for simple fixes like Permissions and verifying that things aren't completely borked.

I also know the noises drives make leading up to, during and after the various mechanical failures, which most users don't.....

There's a lot to know, certainly but the question was about Defrag. IMO Norton has the most detailed, effective and rapidly implemented defrag utility.
 

Peterkro

macrumors 68020
Aug 17, 2004
2,143
1,360
Communard de Londres,Tiocfaidh ár lá
yellow said:
No, no, no! Please don't recommend this! Do not use any Symantec disk utilities on an OS X based Mac. They cause much more harm than they help. Norton's time of legacy died with OS 9. As I said, the OS defrags on the fly, so it's not needed. If you still feel like you must do this (some people just cannot get over the need of doing 'maintenance' on their disks.), Tech Tool Pro has a defrag capability.
I have to agree I wouldn't use Norton on any Computer,I,ve never used on a Mac but my experience with windows in the past has convinced me to never ever install any of the products on anything.
 

Lucky8

macrumors regular
May 18, 2005
218
0
Peterkro said:
I have to agree I wouldn't use Norton on any Computer,I,ve never used on a Mac but my experience with windows in the past has convinced me to never ever install any of the products on anything.
Norton SUCKS
 

jack0545

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Jun 7, 2005
18
0
peterparker said:
It is usually done by dragging the item to where you want it. This is made less tedious through spring-loaded folders. When you drag the item and hover over a folder it will open the folder after a short delay. I had the same issue when first using OS X, but now I really like the spring-loaded behavior.

yeah, but even if i drag it still leaves the original in its original location. Then I have two copies. Isn't there a way to just move a folder or a file to a different place on the same drive so it doesn't have to do the work of copying?

Extra files is also a problem with my music. i moved all my music from my old computer to my external H drive, (i have a lot of music and didn't want to clog my computer) and i wanted to use it from there. But i discovered that even when my H isn't plugged in, i could still access my music. Mac had made copies and created it's own folder on my hard drive.

that's annoying! is it always making extra files?

BTW, thanks so much for all of your replies. I definitely took to long before looking at the responses and downloaded Norton 9.0. It caught a couple of trojan.byte.verify bugs. i don't know if they were from my old machine but i removed them. it did nothing for defragmenting the machine. i have 1.5 gigs of ram so that shouldn't be an issue.
 

After G

macrumors 68000
Aug 27, 2003
1,589
1
California
Could it be an Energy Saver setting that is making your computer slow?
Go into the Energy Saver preference panel, and make sure that your G5 is set to "Better Performance". It might help the slowness issues.
 

faintember

macrumors 65816
Jun 6, 2005
1,363
0
the ruins of the Cherokee nation
Tried reparing permissions? It usually helps my PB run a lil bit faster.
Also try MacJanitor(do all tasks) and MacSweeper(run all processes).
A combo of repairing permissions/macjanitor/macsweeper really helped out my PB regain some performance.

My iMac would not even boot after installing Norton (curent version for its time) on it and running the "defrag" (alas i was a switcher at the time and didnt know about not really needing to defrag). I ended up doing a complete erase and install to get my iMac up and running again (note: not one kernal panic or other problem since removing Nortons and re-installing the OS)

Personally, i agree with many others on here saying DONT use Nortons, and like some of the others, i will have to agree to disagree with the pro-Nortons people. :) If it works for a certain person then great, use it, however my experience with it was bad, and therefore i can not reccomend it.

Good luck with getting your system running faster!
 

slooksterPSV

macrumors 68040
Apr 17, 2004
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Nowheresville
After G said:
Could it be an Energy Saver setting that is making your computer slow?
Go into the Energy Saver preference panel, and make sure that your G5 is set to "Better Performance". It might help the slowness issues.
The G5 I'm on, was acting sluggish, went into Energy Saver and changed the setting to Highest for the processor instead of Automatic or Reduced. Now I'm flying like the wind.
Also, for performance measures, I recommend Onyx.
 

killmoms

macrumors 68040
Jun 23, 2003
3,722
13
Washington, DC
jack0545 said:
yeah, but even if i drag it still leaves the original in its original location. Then I have two copies. Isn't there a way to just move a folder or a file to a different place on the same drive so it doesn't have to do the work of copying?
If you simply drag, copying is the default mode if you're going from one volume to another. To move instead, simply hold the Command key when you drag.

Extra files is also a problem with my music. i moved all my music from my old computer to my external H drive, (i have a lot of music and didn't want to clog my computer) and i wanted to use it from there. But i discovered that even when my H isn't plugged in, i could still access my music. Mac had made copies and created it's own folder on my hard drive.

that's annoying! is it always making extra files?
No, you're just not used to the default behavior of OS X or some of its programs. If you're talking about iTunes, it's automatically set to copy music to your Music folder and manage that folder as well. If you want to change this behavior (or iTunes' default directory) then go into iTunes preferences, under Advanced.

BTW, thanks so much for all of your replies. I definitely took to long before looking at the responses and downloaded Norton 9.0. It caught a couple of trojan.byte.verify bugs. i don't know if they were from my old machine but i removed them. it did nothing for defragmenting the machine. i have 1.5 gigs of ram so that shouldn't be an issue.
That's AntiVirus. You want Utilities, which comes with a whole range of drive utilities, including a defragmenter. I had it on my install of Panther, but was very disappointed with the slowdown some of their other programs incurred, so I haven't bothered to reinstall it yet. My machine seems to be fine so far, so I'm not worried about fragmentation yet.
 

yellow

Moderator emeritus
Oct 21, 2003
15,925
1
Portland, OR
jack0545 said:
yeah, but even if i drag it still leaves the original in its original location. Then I have two copies. Isn't there a way to just move a folder or a file to a different place on the same drive so it doesn't have to do the work of copying?
That should not be, unless you're holding down Option when you drag & drop (this is one way to drag/move/copy). It also might be happening if you are moving files/folders into/out of folders that are not owned by you or part of your group. But if everything you're moving is within your home directory, then it should not be copying. Please provide some examples.

jack0545 said:
Mac had made copies and created it's own folder on my hard drive.
That's because you didn't tell it to use the files and keep the library on another drive. And there's no reason you would have know that, being a switcher. I'd suggest simply importing ALL the music from your alternate drive into the iTunes library, and then erase the files from the alternate drive and move your iTunes library to the alternate drive. Make sure you specify that you want to use that iTunes library from the iTunes preferences.
 

mischief

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Aug 1, 2001
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I do not recommend moving it all twice. That will just compound any existing directory issues.

I also must underscore my previous opinions about Norton.

Do not install it if you only have one drive and intend to do Utility work on that drive.

Do not leave it to OS X to defragment your drive if you use your drive with any intensity.

Do not take the opinions of those who have only used Norton once, got in over their heads and panicked as gospel.

Norton is a very effective tool and only proves detrimental to use if you fail to read the manual, panic when it does something unexpected or are attempting to fix a failing drive.

I apologize if I'm a bit short this morning.... Family issues....

Suffice to say: I've been using Norton for Defragmentation on OS X for better than five years on well more than four dozen various Macs of all shapes and sizes including professional workstations, laptops, private machines, etc.

I use it on my own machine along with TechTool Pro. In fact I did so last night. I thought I'd see what OS X could do on it's own for a while (6 months). I've left OS X.3 alone to manage it's own maintenance for that period.

I began by restarting from a copy of X.3.7 running on an external FW drive that I've installed Techtool Pro and Norton Systemworks on.

I started by examining the disk with Speed Disk to establish a baseline. The drive was so fragmented it had areas that appeared like static in the colour rendering. I tried Techtool first to see if Yellow and other's I've had this conversation with were accurate. Techtool took an incredibly long time rebuilding directories so I assumed it had defragged as well.... there was no reason for it to take as long as it did to simply rebuild the file trees. Techtool found very few dammaged files, which surprised me, usually there's tons of minor stuff.

After running Techtool I ran Norton again to check it's work. The drive was a souflee before Techtool and a souflee after Techtool. After running Norton Disk Doctor ( finding another fifty or so dammaged files) and Norton Speed Disk it now runs like a top with a neatly organized and defragged disk.

The machine is a Mac Mini 1.42/512MB/80GB running OS X.3.9 with Journalling and OS X's automated routines enabled for times I know it's awake.

From this experience I can state, from first hand evidence in a controlled experiment what I've seen over and over in the field: OS X does a markedly poor job of maintaining it's own disk and Techtool does not, in fact defragment. I am therefore returning to periodic maintenance with Norton.
 

yellow

Moderator emeritus
Oct 21, 2003
15,925
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Portland, OR
Micromat claims that TTP4 does disk optimization (defragging):

http://www.micromat.com/tt_pro_4/tt_pro_4.html
TechTool Pro 4 now offers a new optimization feature for your Mac OS X drive. The Mac OS X system contains thousands of files that fragment quickly. TechTool Pro 4 lets you quickly and safely unfragment these and other files so your system runs reliably at its peak.
Please note, they also say that journalling should be turned off before attempting to defrag your drive. This might account for the speed and other issues you're seeing.
 

decksnap

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Apr 11, 2003
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Regardless of Mischeif's experiences, I will state again that just because he dismisses other's opinions doesn't mean you should. Our Mac technicians have strongly warned against using Norton for ANYTHING. It appears that they do indeed use TechTool on our work systems, yet for an average user I wonder if it's even necessary. (They need to get paid, eh?) My other Mac ran smoothly for years without any such outside maintenance.
 

slooksterPSV

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Apr 17, 2004
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Nowheresville
decksnap said:
Regardless of Mischeif's experiences, I will state again that just because he dismisses other's opinions doesn't mean you should. Our Mac technicians have strongly warned against using Norton for ANYTHING. It appears that they do indeed use TechTool on our work systems, yet for an average user I wonder if it's even necessary. (They need to get paid, eh?) My other Mac ran smoothly for years without any such outside maintenance.
As long as its the newest version of TechTool I think you should be fine, if you use it. I used the OS 9 version on my laptop before I sold it, and it was the worst choice (defragmenting), it took it forever to boot up, run programs, etc. But then again, I was running OS 10.2.8, difference in versions. The latest version should help you out.

Still though, I recommend Onyx for maintenance, and let the OS do the defragmenting.