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And this is only at a modest 1280x800 resolution.

A true apples to apples comparison, oddly enough using nothing but Apples.

The HD 2600 is beaten not only by the last gen iMac, but also the MacBook Pro. So, for everyone defending the card, stop. Just stop.
 
And this is only at a modest 1280x800 resolution.

A true apples to apples comparison, oddly enough using nothing but Apples.

The HD 2600 is beaten not only by the last gen iMac, but also the MacBook Pro. So, for everyone defending the card, stop. Just stop.

It all depends on the game engine, I'd encourage people to just mess around with the VGA Charts on tomshardware.com

Oblivion Benchmark #1:

2600 XT = 23.0 FPS
8600 GT = 21.0 FPS
7600 GT = 14.5 FPS
 
It all depends on the game engine, I'd encourage people to just mess around with the VGA Charts on tomshardware.com

Oblivion Benchmark #1:

2600 XT = 23.0 FPS
7600 GT = 14.5 FPS

What is truly pathetic, people are arguing about FPS that are not even PLAYABLE. Try playing that game at 23FPS! Have fun!
 
What is truly pathetic, people are arguing about FPS that are not even PLAYABLE. Try playing that game at 23FPS! Have fun!

That is pretty bad, but that is an average, oblivion isn't that framerate dependent that it really ruins the experience, at lease when I have played it.

The point is all in comparing the numbers though, which is the point of the benchmarks.

In specific game nvidia hardware does better, imagine that. Games on the Doom 3 engine which are tailored towards nVidia, and Halo which originally launched on the Xbox, which was powered by an nVidia GPU.

Some games consistently perform better on specific brands, so such comparisons only help you see how it will run those games, not give you an overall picture of the hardware in general.
 
It all depends on the game engine, I'd encourage people to just mess around with the VGA Charts on tomshardware.com

Oblivion Benchmark #1:

2600 XT = 23.0 FPS
8600 GT = 21.0 FPS
7600 GT = 14.5 FPS

My friend what you give us is the 2600XT fps result when we all know that even if the graphics on new imac's are a 2600XT is undercloaked more towards to a 2600pro...
 
Certainly it was true for the iMac's Mobility X1600 was downclocked for heat reasons I believe. So reviews showing its performance was not really applicable for the iMac. The 8600GT is different from what the Macbook Pro has, but it does show it is a very good graphics card.

I am amazed the Macbook Pro with .4GHz of a less gets beaten so badly in Halo 3. Given the AMD/ATi team-up, I was sort of expecting Apple to go Nvidia only but there you go! I don't know why the 8600MT didn't go in both systems to be honest.
 
And this is only at a modest 1280x800 resolution.

A true apples to apples comparison, oddly enough using nothing but Apples.

The HD 2600 is beaten not only by the last gen iMac, but also the MacBook Pro. So, for everyone defending the card, stop. Just stop.

I love how the new iMac looks and the new Mini is so much more powerful than the g4 I had earlier, but it really seems like MBP is going to be my next Mac. It's had some problems with drivers but I hope they will be fixed before I have the money to buy one. :D

if iMac only had GeForce 8600...
 
iMac is using the HD 2600 Pro not XT (I believe)

Unfortunately, the HD 2600 Pro is an underperformer...
Here is a nice comparison between the ATI/AMD 2600 series and the Nvidia 8600 series...
Basically the HD 2600 Pro is a budget graphics card. Which, I suppose is OK unless you want a gaming rig; you'll have to look elsewhere than the iMac at this date... :(

Am I right that his is the Pro and not XT? The XT is twice the memory bandwidth of the Pro for starters. I think it boils down to memory speed and the speed of the Stream Processor Clock...
 
Unfortunately, the HD 2600 Pro is an underperformer...
Here is a nice comparison between the ATI/AMD 2600 series and the Nvidia 8600 series...
Basically the HD 2600 Pro is a budget graphics card. Which, I suppose is OK unless you want a gaming rig; you'll have to look elsewhere than the iMac at this date... :(

Am I right that his is the Pro and not XT? The XT is twice the memory bandwidth of the Pro for starters. I think it boils down to memory speed and the speed of the Stream Processor Clock...

It's already been proven that the card in the iMac is the 2600m XT underclocked and not a desktop PRO.
 
The HD 2600 is beaten not only by the last gen iMac, but also the MacBook Pro. So, for everyone defending the card, stop. Just stop.

There's no denying, it's a dog. And it's not like Apple didn't know. It's been all over the web for a month that it's a dog.
 
Why does Apple keep making Graphics mistakes? Don't they get it? Apple is a graphics powerhouse and they keep giving us pathetically slow graphics hardware.

But really... I think this is more an ATI driver issue... performance is way to low... but from other reviews that I have checked out.. the 2600 performs about the same as it does in windows.. so if its the drivers both need some tender loving care.
 
Why does Apple keep making Graphics mistakes? Don't they get it? Apple is a graphics powerhouse and they keep giving us pathetically slow graphics hardware.

I bet it's because the chip has some nice subsystems for things like video decoding, and the engineers at Apple got so glassy-eyed over them that they forgot about the fundamentals, i.e. raw grunt.

It's not as if video decoding can't be done on the CPU, so a video decoder on your GPU is only a nice to have, whereas there's no substitute for raw 3D power.
 
It's official then. My thoughts of getting an 2.8 GHz iMac are now over. I'll get the Mac Pro in Jan or whever it's going to be updated instead.
 
back to it's roots

I think what Apple is doing with this new iMac is getting it back to it's roots. When the iMac first came out, and for a while thereafter, it was the low end family-friendly Mac. It was made to do things that the majority of technophobes would be willing to try, and it was made to be cheap, impossible to confuse it's user, and cute. No one back then bought an iMac for any semblance of power or long-term use.
The past generation or two of iMac has seen a shift in Apple's branding of this machine as having become their "Flagship" computer. It was seen as what EVERYBODY gets except really wealthy design firms and large university super computer test labs. It began to be made more as a competitor to high end systems, and was the front line of Apple's efforts.
What we're seeing now is Apple backing away from a "Flagship" powerful iMac and reinstating their original goal of a cute brand-pushing low-to-mid power Personal Computer for families. I suspect that beginning next year, Apple will start to push the MacPro again like they did with the first PowerMac G5. The MacPro prices will drop somewhat to make it more accessible, and it will replace the iMac as the "Flagship".
 
I think what Apple is doing with this new iMac is getting it back to it's roots. When the iMac first came out, and for a while thereafter, it was the low end family-friendly Mac. It was made to do things that the majority of technophobes would be willing to try, and it was made to be cheap, impossible to confuse it's user, and cute. No one back then bought an iMac for any semblance of power or long-term use.
The past generation or two of iMac has seen a shift in Apple's branding of this machine as having become their "Flagship" computer. It was seen as what EVERYBODY gets except really wealthy design firms and large university super computer test labs. It began to be made more as a competitor to high end systems, and was the front line of Apple's efforts.
What we're seeing now is Apple backing away from a "Flagship" powerful iMac and reinstating their original goal of a cute brand-pushing low-to-mid power Personal Computer for families. I suspect that beginning next year, Apple will start to push the MacPro again like they did with the first PowerMac G5. The MacPro prices will drop somewhat to make it more accessible, and it will replace the iMac as the "Flagship".

How does this all account for the fact though that Apple has indicated it wants to be more serious about gaming on the Mac platform? They're talking the talk but not walking the walk in my opinion. :cool:
 
I really want Apple to dump the GMA 950 in the Mini, not so much because I'm a gamer but because I'd like to drive a 30" (maybe a 24", if I must) ACD. I like the iMac, but dumping the screen along with everything else is a drag. A cheap CPU/disk combination that I can upgrade every couple of years, and putting the savings into a NICE HD display I can keep for a long time, is where I want to be. Unfortunately Apple requires me to buy a Mac Pro if I want a standalone display, which is way too expensive and unnecessarily powerful for my intended use. I don't even require a lot of local storage, either, since the advent of reasonably priced NAS makes for a good thin-client setup. If only Apple would come out with a 4-disk Xserve RAID comparably priced with other similar NAS solutions I'd be in heaven.
 
I believe Core Duo and Core 2 Duo use the same socket and everything?

So all Apple had to do was simply change what chip they plug into the board. No motherboard changes/upgrades or anything.

It makes me wonder why they took so damn long to do this. Were they waiting until Core 2 Duo prices dropped enough to keep their profit margin on the Mini? It's annoying.

-Z

Do you REALLY have to wonder? Come on. Apple is all about milking its core users for all they're worth. It's the Steve Jobs 'road to recovery' methodology. If you make more money on iMac than MacMini, artificially make MacMini crappy so those that can POSSIBLY afford to go to iMac will do so because MacMini's graphics are so terrible. Likewise, force gamers to buy a MacPro by giving iMac really AWFUL graphics cards? I mean all of us waiting for a hardware refresh on the iMac, HOPING that we could get a new graphics card in the thing that might last a couple of years before being hopelessly outdated for gaming got what? A new case and a WORSE graphics card than the one they were selling a year ago?!?!? WTF is up with that? They make me wish I'd gone ahead and got one with the superior NVidia card while I had the chance!

Ok, so say I CAN afford a MacPro, but didn't REALLY want to spend that much. It has a graphics slot so I can just get the latest and greatest gaming card and cruise on into gaming heaven with all that new EA stuff coming out, etc. (or at least crank it up under XP when I want to play games), right? BZZZTT! WRONG! No, Apple has rigged the game. Short of hacking your way into a card's bios and remaking the wheel, you can't run any card in a MacPro that Apple doesn't support! And IF and WHEN they do offer something that's not 2 years old, you can be sure it will cost you at least $150 more than it does at Best Buy for the Windows platform because Apple has to recoup all that time it's put into writing customized drivers to make that card work on Apple's hardware, which despite being identical to PC hardware in almost every other way, PURPOSELY uses a different system than Windows for graphics card relating to bios so you CANNOT just pop in a high-end graphics card off-the-shelf and make the Mac blaze away even IF there were a Mac driver for it.

It's not impossible for someone like ATI to release their own retail card for the Mac (unlikely given only ONE high-end model supports replaceable cards at this point), but even then without the proper Boot Camp drivers, you can't just use that card in both Mac and Windows because cards that are set up to boot for the Mac must have boot camp support to boot Windows because the Bios rom is being used to handle the Mac at that point, not Windows.

You COULD buy a 2nd video card to run games in XP or Vista, but it's getting so convoluted at that point, you could just get an iMac for Mac stuff an buy a 2nd PC for games and STILL probably come out ahead.

I like the MacOS, but I do NOT like how we are virtual slaves to Apple hardware. They decide FOR us what we can have and therefore what we can ultimately do. If they were fair about it and offered something for everyone and didn't milk us for all we're worth with underpowered machines (graphics wise) that are obsolete brand new (so much for the theory that Macs have a LONG shelf life...well unless you don't care AT ALL about gaming... and believe me I'm not hard core gamer, but I do like to play games sometimes and I don't want 20-30 fps averages when a higher graphics card would get me over 100 and therefore a nice safety margin for a couple of years).

What good does it do to bring back new release gaming for the Mac if NONE of the machines save the MacPro are capable of playing them smoothly at native resolutions and even there, it's half what a PC using SLI can do? From what I've read, the MacPro can't do SLI period even with drivers as only one slot has the proper specs. So how is the MacPro a "Pro" machine, then? Or does that mean 'pro' as in professional Mac users are USED to having machines that can't run games? All this despite the fact Apple touts the MacPro as their top gaming hardware....

We all know Apple COULD release a mid-range mini-tower with the specs gamers need/want and the ability to replace the graphics card over time, but that would deprive Apple of milking the same customers for 2 iMacs over the same period of time (assuming they're die-hard Mac users that would never consider anything but a Mac) and so they choose milk the current customer base over attracting more switchers. I personally think this is VERY short-sighted on Apple's part. More switchers = more market share which = more sales long-term and happier customers that will keep coming back, even if not quite as often.

I really like this dual-G4 I picked up used and find myself using it a LOT more than my Windows machine for day-to-day stuff like browsing, downloading, burning audio CDs, etc., but most games (save emulating old ones or playing old Mac games) are out of the question, even though my Win98 machine from 1999 with a mere 1GHz PIII and ATI Radeon 7500 can run new games from just a few years ago (just finished Tron 2.0 awhile back and it ran great at 800x600 in 32-bit color with all effects enabled on this multi-sync CRT). That game is 4-5 years after I got the PC and it still runs smooth. People complain about short shelf lives of PCs, but I got a lot of work out of that Windows machine. I only had to reload Windows twice in 8 years too and never had a single virus on it (guess I don't visit bad sites). It did crash itself silly, though and that's one area where this G4 with Tiger seems to shine by comparison. The Mac's interface is mostly better (few quirks I don't like compared to Windows like the close button not quitting the program because it means extra bother to either CMD-Q or move the mouse to the menu bar and click on the menu and then select QUIT instead of just an easy single click. If MacOS had a simple preference panel option to select the default behavior, it wouldn't be an issue... most things on the Mac that are done differently wouldn't be issues for switchers if Apple had more selectable options in their preference panels for that matter.... Linux has TONS of behavioral choices in KDE and Gnome. Why does Mac = Steve Job's way or the highway? Not everyone likes doing things the same way as everyone else.
 
Wow, Apple's desktops are a joke. You can gat so much more power with a PC at the same price, or you could get something comparable at a much lower price. The Mac Pro was a great machine, but they haven't bothered to update with new graphics, memory, HDDs, pricing, etc..

I used to try and defend the Mac desktops from my PC gamer friends who laughed at it's over-priced, under-powered hardware. But Apple clearly doesn't care to offer a cost-effective Mac desktop, nor do they care to put decent video cards in them.

Is there any doubt as to why their laptops do so well, yet their desktops stagnate? The only people who buy a mini or iMac are either fan-boys, rich, ignorant, or just like OS X too much to even care. They are not cost-effective.

Edit: To the guy above me: You have some very interesting points, and I agree with you on all of them. If Apple released a decent mid-tower, made the iMac a super cheap family desktop, and updated the Mac pro, they would actually have a competitive desktop line-up. But what the heck do I know.
 
What is truly pathetic, people are arguing about FPS that are not even PLAYABLE. Try playing that game at 23FPS! Have fun!

Wow, how far we've come. 23FPS isn't playable? Just a few short years ago, if you could get 23FPS from a game it was VERY playable.

That's when the debate of actual viewable FPS verses what the eye can really tell blah blah blah. There is a point to where it doesn't matter anymore. For instance, you will see zero difference between 200FPS and 1000FPS. The debated raged for a while, never saw any definitive proof one way or another.

But bottom line, 23FPS is playable.
 
Wow, Apple's desktops are a joke. You can gat so much more power with a PC at the same price, or you could get something comparable at a much lower price. The Mac Pro was a great machine, but they haven't bothered to update with new graphics, memory, HDDs, pricing, etc..

I used to try and defend the Mac desktops from my PC gamer friends who laughed at it's over-priced, under-powered hardware. But Apple clearly doesn't care to offer a cost-effective Mac desktop, nor do they care to put decent video cards in them.

Is there any doubt as to why their laptops do so well, yet their desktops stagnate? The only people who buy a mini or iMac are either fan-boys, rich, ignorant, or just like OS X too much to even care. They are not cost-effective.

The new iMacs I will have to agree with you there. But this 24" iMac with 7600GT graphics is, and was, cost effective when I bought it. And who would have thought that it's still even better than the brand new iMacs?

Maybe next spring they'll release an update to the iMacs that give them real video cards. But till they do, I'm holding off in buying one for my wife.

Xbox 360 though is more than enough gaming power for me....for now.
 
The new iMacs I will have to agree with you there. But this 24" iMac with 7600GT graphics is, and was, cost effective when I bought it. And who would have thought that it's still even better than the brand new iMacs?

Xbox 360 though is more than enough gaming power for me....for now.
While the iMac had a good graphics card, it still used a mobile processor, and other mobile components that made it more expensive and less powerfull then a PC.

I have a 360, but the dang thing gets so hot in my little room that I start sweating. I have to open up the A/C vent all the way just to keep my room at a decent temp.
 
I think what Apple is doing with this new iMac is getting it back to it's roots. When the iMac first came out, and for a while thereafter, it was the low end family-friendly Mac. It was made to do things that the majority of technophobes would be willing to try, and it was made to be cheap, impossible to confuse it's user, and cute. No one back then bought an iMac for any semblance of power or long-term use.
The past generation or two of iMac has seen a shift in Apple's branding of this machine as having become their "Flagship" computer. It was seen as what EVERYBODY gets except really wealthy design firms and large university super computer test labs. It began to be made more as a competitor to high end systems, and was the front line of Apple's efforts.
What we're seeing now is Apple backing away from a "Flagship" powerful iMac and reinstating their original goal of a cute brand-pushing low-to-mid power Personal Computer for families. I suspect that beginning next year, Apple will start to push the MacPro again like they did with the first PowerMac G5. The MacPro prices will drop somewhat to make it more accessible, and it will replace the iMac as the "Flagship".

I'm sorry, but that logic is completely borked. If you want to build a multi-purpose family-oriented mid-range home computer that is easy to use, all you need to do is put a decent graphics card in the new iMac. That way little Jimmy can use it to play Crysis when it comes out, mom can surf the net, dad can do his accounting on Numbers (and sneak a game of Crysis while the family aren't looking) etc. etc. Hamstringing one of the cornerstones of a home computer- recreational gaming- as a 'strategy' would entail stupidity on a Microsoft Zune-like scale...

I say that as a potential switcher who is not a fanatical gamer and is desperate to switch because a) Windows drives me insane and b) OSX and iLife are things of beauty. BUT I won't accept a machine that is supposedly a modern all-in-one, "oh, except if you want to play games a couple of hours a week in which case you should probably stick to minesweeper". I want something that's going to perform adequately at ALL tasks I throw at it, including 3 or 4 hours of wind-down gaming per week. Saying "Macs aren't for games" just cuts them out of the self-same mid-level user you outlined above, and means I have to wait until a decent alternative comes along to switch, or shell out for a Mac Pro. The days when we were limited in what we could do with a home computer by the Hardware it came with should be over. Apple don't seem to have got that...
 
Am I missing something here? I just got done playing Halo on my new mid-2007 iMac 20" with the Radeon 2400, and the game played plenty smooth and fun.

I was one of those who complained about the poor gaming performance of the new iMac graphics cards, but then I bought an iMac and I realize I have nothing to complain about.

I admit I'm not a hardcore gamer, but I'm trying to figure out how playing Halo on my new iMac could have been any better.

If Halo runs on my iMac, and runs smooth, and the graphics looked fine to me, what is everyone going crazy about?

The way I figure it is this: given the amount of time I have to play games on my iMac (about a half-hour most days) there are way more Mac games available today than I could possibly play in the next few years. And that's not even counting PC games I could play on Bootcamp!

Here I have a computer that will play more games than I could possibly have time to get through, so why would I complain that my iMac won't play games that will be available next year.

I think everyone should quit obsessing on numbers and just start playing games on their iMac and I really believe all the complaining would fizzle out pretty quickly.
 
Ugh, I SO want a new iMac, but I need a MacBook Pro, haha. I'm sure I'd find a significant speed difference from my 1.83 Core Duo iMac to one of the new iMacs.
 
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