iMac Graphics - For Gaming

[Phoenixx]

Is Final Cut a light task?

What's the difference between the power of a i5-6600 in a Mac and a i5-6600 in a Pc?

Please read all of previous message, instead of quoting out of context and introducing strawman arguments.

"Seriously, if you are considering gaming, just build yourself a Windows based PC. The Mac lineup is just a joke, when it comes to gaming. I use both Mac and PC computers (for different purposes), but my 5 year old $600 gaming rig just had a new graphics card put in, and still renders at 400% the speed of the latest 4 core Mac Pro. Macs are only good for light tasks that don't require raw computing power."

However, since you are bringing up graphics rendering in the context of making videos (rather than gaming as my message was about, and what this ENTIRE thread is about), there is obviously no difference in power in the same chipset being used, other than than OS X's bloated and slow design making it run slower. But, there is a MASSIVE difference in the price charged. If you are serious about raw computing power even the (now running 4 year old hardware but still the latest model) Mac Pro is a joke, compared with what you can get for an equivalent price elsewhere.

 

[cynics]

Please read all of previous message, instead of quoting out of context and introducing strawman arguments.

"Seriously, if you are considering gaming, just build yourself a Windows based PC. The Mac lineup is just a joke, when it comes to gaming. I use both Mac and PC computers (for different purposes), but my 5 year old $600 gaming rig just had a new graphics card put in, and still renders at 400% the speed of the latest 4 core Mac Pro. Macs are only good for light tasks that don't require raw computing power."

However, since you are bringing up graphics rendering in the context of making videos (rather than gaming as my message was about, and what this ENTIRE thread is about), there is obviously no difference in power in the same chipset being used, other than than OS X's bloated and slow design making it run slower. But, there is a MASSIVE difference in the price charged. If you are serious about raw computing power even the (now running 4 year old hardware but sill the latest model) Mac Pro is a joke, compared with what you can get for an equivalent price elsewhere.

I don't get this (bolded text) when comparing like for like. Video encoding for example I find that (again comparing like for like) there is no difference in output speed comparing OS X to Windows and thats measuring hours upon hours so even minor 2-3% differences would be noticeable.

Depending on the software I generally prefer OS X because OS X software can leverage Core Audio but thats besides the point.

.....

Are you still talking about processor when you say there is a massive difference of price charged? Or just in general?

I don't think any other manufacturer offers the 6700K in an all-in-one computer the best you'll find is a 6700HQ or 6700T.

 

[EnderBeta]

I don't think the operating system runs slow. Certain aspects like gaming and real time graphics are neglected.

However I understand the frustration about OS X.A PC running Windows 10 can at times feel stable ad one might almost forget Windows reliability track record. The problem is forced updates and issues. For instance the 1607 update breaks Visual Studio 2008. I have to use that version of Visual Studio for SIMPL# programming. I had to completely uninstall Visual Studio 2008, reinstall it, apply SP1, install SIMPL# and then run windows update to fix the update. If I had an enterprise version of Windows 10 I could delay the upgrade.

I can't tell you the last time I had to go through the same headache with my Apple computers. If Apple ever starts to take gaming seriously I'd gladly drop the PC platform provided of course the hardware was gaming quality too. In that light I try to buy games on Steam that run on the Mac ad let the hardware survey run on my Mac and buy games in the OS X App store. I figure I'm voting with my wallet
[doublepost=1470529292][/doublepost]

Don't consider these ones, the new models coming out in a few months will have much improved graphics, whether they go with AMD or Nvidia.

They look like they might go with AMD though, and the top (preconfigured) model will have the power of a GTX 980m.

It will likely have TB3 as well so you could plug in a graphics card if you have the right drivers.

Are the new mobile variants out yet? They need to get them before they can put the new design out let aline build them. I'm thinking it will probably be Early 2017 for the next iMac at the soonest.

 

[Appleaker]

I don't think the operating system runs slow. Certain aspects like gaming and real time graphics are neglected.

However I understand the frustration about OS X.A PC running Windows 10 can at times feel stable ad one might almost forget Windows reliability track record. The problem is forced updates and issues. For instance the 1607 update breaks Visual Studio 2008. I have to use that version of Visual Studio for SIMPL# programming. I had to completely uninstall Visual Studio 2008, reinstall it, apply SP1, install SIMPL# and then run windows update to fix the update. If I had an enterprise version of Windows 10 I could delay the upgrade.

I can't tell you the last time I had to go through the same headache with my Apple computers. If Apple ever starts to take gaming seriously I'd gladly drop the PC platform provided of course the hardware was gaming quality too. In that light I try to buy games on Steam that run on the Mac ad let the hardware survey run on my Mac and buy games in the OS X App store. I figure I'm voting with my wallet
[doublepost=1470529292][/doublepost]

Are the new mobile variants out yet? They need to get them before they can put the new design out let aline build them. I'm thinking it will probably be Early 2017 for the next iMac at the soonest.

Nvidia are announcing them around August 20th so AMD will make the announcement either a day or two before or after Nvidia. Also, since they have a close relationship with AMD at the moment, I sure they've already discussed the Polaris mobile cards. They could always announce it and release it several months later.

This thread discussed when they'll release it - you may be correct:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/new-imac-this-fall.1985313/page-3

 

[EnderBeta]

Nvidia are announcing them around August 20th so AMD will make the announcement either a day or two before or after Nvidia. Also, since they have a close relationship with AMD at the moment, I sure they've already discussed the Polaris mobile cards. They could always announce it and release it several months later.

This thread discussed when they'll release it - you may be correct:
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/new-imac-this-fall.1985313/page-3

For as much as Apple charges and as hot as AMD chips have tended to run in the past I have my fingers crossed on Apple switching back to nVidia for the GPU.

 

[Appleaker]

For as much as Apple charges and as hot as AMD chips have tended to run in the past I have my fingers crossed on Apple switching back to nVidia for the GPU.

Heat won't really be a problem with this generation, but I still hope they switch to Nvidia. The new Nvidia mobile cards basically match the desktop in performance, while the new AMD mobile cards are on par with last years Nvidia mobile cards.

I am more relaxed about it this year due to the ability to plug in an eGPU but i hope I won't have to do that.

 

[EnderBeta]

Heat won't really be a problem with this generation, but I still hope they switch to Nvidia. The new Nvidia mobile cards basically match the desktop in performance, while the new AMD mobile cards are on par with last years Nvidia mobile cards.

I am more relaxed about it this year due to the ability to plug in an eGPU but i hope I won't have to do that.

Will OS X support the external graphics card?

Interesting will this work on the late 2015 iMac with a dual link adapter using two thunderbolt 2 ports in lue of the one thunderbolt 3 port?

If so I'd love to go grab a Pascal Titan X for my iMac.

 

[cynics]

Will OS X support the external graphics card?

Interesting will this work on the late 2015 iMac with a dual link adapter using two thunderbolt 2 ports in lue of the one thunderbolt 3 port?

If so I'd love to go grab a Pascal Titan X for my iMac.

No personal experience with this or any other eGPU but

https://bizon-tech.com/us/bizonbox2-egpu.html/#about

 

[EnderBeta]

No personal experience with this or any other eGPU but

https://bizon-tech.com/us/bizonbox2-egpu.html/#about

I'll have to check the reviews. That is a very interesting prospect indeed. The desktop graphics card would drastically increase the usable life of my iMac.

 

[richpjr]

I'll have to check the reviews. That is a very interesting prospect indeed. The desktop graphics card would drastically increase the usable life of my iMac.

Here is another soon to be released external GPU to check out as well:

http://www.razerzone.com/store/razer-core

 

[cynics]

I'll have to check the reviews. That is a very interesting prospect indeed. The desktop graphics card would drastically increase the usable life of my iMac.

Personally I'm not a fan of the idea. It seems like another accessory you can buy that will give Apple incentive to do away with dedicated graphics all together.

On the flip side you could turn a MacBook Air into a editing rig and do away with MacBook Pro so who knows.

 

[EnderBeta]

Here is another soon to be released external GPU to check out as well:

http://www.razerzone.com/store/razer-core

I've seen that one. I like Razer but it is using Thunderbolt 3 port. My machines don't have that port.

Personally I'm not a fan of the idea. It seems like another accessory you can buy that will give Apple incentive to do away with dedicated graphics all together.

On the flip side you could turn a MacBook Air into a editing rig and do away with MacBook Pro so who knows.

A GPU is only part of the equation. The MacBook Air is also rather limited by a small amount of RAM and a weak processor.

I'd prefer the iMac to have a MXM slot or even better a PCIe slot but since Apple has already shown themselves to neglect graphics at least a way to work around the limitation has been developed.

 

[inhalexhale1]

This is really all you need to know about Mac gaming in general. Are you:

1) someone who wants to play a game, and is happy playing at native (or half native for retina displays), usually on medium (sometimes good) settings? The Mac will be fine.

2) someone who wants to play games, turn up every setting, and watch the fps counter as much as the game? And throw fits if it dips below 60fps (or 100fps because despite reason, you CAN see the difference). Mac will not be fine.

 

[cynics]

I've seen that one. I like Razer but it is using Thunderbolt 3 port. My machines don't have that port.



A GPU is only part of the equation. The MacBook Air is also rather limited by a small amount of RAM and a weak processor.

I'd prefer the iMac to have a MXM slot or even better a PCIe slot but since Apple has already shown themselves to neglect graphics at least a way to work around the limitation has been developed.

I agree. The new Titan X (pascal) for example is reaching CPU bottlenecks with even the 6700K (digital foundry just did a comparison on YouTube). And the 1080 was reaching bottlenecks with the i5 series (goodoldgamer has a YouTube video on that). We are entering a time where gamers will need to seriously start considering their CPU if they want to get the most out of their GPU's when it comes to gaming.

 

[CWallace]

What do games like Battlefield 4, Company of Heroes & Civ 5 run like in 5k on boot camp (or OSX).

I have the M395X and Diablo 3 is around 40fps at 5K. Tomb Raider will be around 15fps at that resolution.

It is a little painful using the apple mouse, but manageable. Is there a better game mouse just for OS X, I would not have capability of setting it up in Windows first.

Any USB mouse will work with OS/X, though there or may or may not be drivers for it. My RAZR game pad has Windows and OS/X drivers, so I am guessing their mice do, as well.

 

[Krevnik]

Any USB mouse will work with OS/X, though there or may or may not be drivers for it. My RAZR game pad has Windows and OS/X drivers, so I am guessing their mice do, as well.

I have a Razer Deathadder Chroma, and I don't even bother with the macOS drivers (and used a Habu until the rubberized parts disintegrated before that). Well, I did install them for about 10 minutes to configure it so it didn't spew rainbow colors and then uninstalled them. It doesn't need them to function. The SteelSeries Rival 300 is a bit cheaper, and I liked it quite a bit as well. Logitech worked with my iMac fine too (but I didn't like the feel nearly as much). Honestly, my favorite mouse is the Deathadder of you are right handed, but I still wish they'd offer the form factor without all the addons that increase the price (the lighting). But buy it on sale if you can.

But really, I wouldn't use the lack of drivers as a reason not to buy a particular mouse, since the drivers are always configuration tools (unless it has RGB lighting or something you have to tweak before it becomes a bog-standard mouse). The underlying mouse is still just a USB mouse like any other. There are good configuration tools for Mac if you want something along those lines: USB Overdrive, Steer Mouse, ControllerMate. And they work with basically any mouse you can get right now, including the cheap ones that don't come with configuration software, outside of the adjustable lighting the gaming mice sometimes include these days.

EDIT: I also kinda second the opinions of folks saying a Mac isn't a great gaming focused machine. I use an iMac for games because it can play Blizzard / Steam titles that don't make sense to play on a console, and then I have a console or two for everything else since I prefer being able to sit down in front of my TV and immerse myself that way. And the other work I do, I prefer having a Mac desktop for (been trying to hold off on the 5K iMac myself for photo work, but it's been hard).

 

[inhalexhale1]

One thing to also realize about the 5k iMac and gaming....

You will have to play at 1440p. Gaming at 5k (especially with a mobile card) is just not happening. While that may sound like not such a bad thing, 1440p on a 5k display is not the same as 1440p native. It's going to look more blurry/less crisp. Some people may not notice it, but I've always found scaling down to lower resolutions look horrible.

 

[Vonjover]

Would love if they have eGPU support on the next macs with thunderbolt 3.. i could finally have the 4k gaming iMac of my dreams.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

One thing to also realize about the 5k iMac and gaming....

You will have to play at 1440p. Gaming at 5k (especially with a mobile card) is just not happening. While that may sound like not such a bad thing, 1440p on a 5k display is not the same as 1440p native. It's going to look more blurry/less crisp. Some people may not notice it, but I've always found scaling down to lower resolutions look horrible.

Nonsense the iMac displays at a scaled 1440p natively all the time and it looks perfect.

 

[inhalexhale1]

Nonsense the iMac displays at a scaled 1440p natively all the time and it looks perfect.

The display can't run a game at native resolution at 1440p. As it does blur if you scale it down from 5k.

Are you thinking of the UI looking good as "1440p" because that isn't the same thing.

 

[EnderBeta]

The display can't run a game at native resolution at 1440p. As it does blur if you scale it down from 5k.

Are you thinking of the UI looking good as "1440p" because that isn't the same thing.

It depends on the game. WOW with metal and 50% render scale looks only marginally worse then the native resolution. However the frame rate goes from unplayable to very playable.

Witcher 2 looks pretty good at medium/high settings and 1080P. I'm not seeing blur.

Anything below 1080P looks horrible but thankfully the 395X in the iMac is at least strong enough to handle 1080P in most games.

I'm hopeful that the next generation iMac will be able to run most games at at least 1440P. If the graphics chip is a good improvement I'll sell my current iMac and get the new one. However in terms of CPU the current 6700K is more then enough.

Edit:

Question:

The linked external graphics enclosures? Do I have to do hacking to make them work or are they plug and play?

Since I have a mobile AMD graphics chip in my iMac would I get crossfire if I went with a AMD card and if so can I apply the crossfire graphics to the internal display?

 

[koyoot]

On the left game rendered in 4K resolution but scaled down to 1080p monitor resolution - retina effect.
On the right game rendered in 960x540 and scaled to 1920x1080 monitor resolution.

This is the difference of image quality you see on your monitor.

 

[EnderBeta]

On the left game rendered in 4K resolution but scaled down to 1080p monitor resolution - retina effect.
On the right game rendered in 960x540 and scaled to 1920x1080 monitor resolution.

This is the difference of image quality you see on your monitor.

Overwatch is a PC only game. Windows handles scaling differently. I was strictly talking about OS X only. I have not been able to get bootcamp to work on my machine. I can't get past the installer which refuses to install because of the partition. It makes no sense. I stopped trying after Windows Setup managed to fubar my entire drive and I had to go into recovery reformat my entire drive and reload OS X from a time machine backup.

 

[koyoot]

Overwatch is a PC only game. Windows handles scaling differently. I was strictly talking about OS X only. I have not been able to get bootcamp to work on my machine. I can't get past the installer which refuses to install because of the partition. It makes no sense. I stopped trying after Windows Setup managed to fubar my entire drive and I had to go into recovery reformat my entire drive and reload OS X from a time machine backup.

Sad to hear your troubles, But I was not responding to your post .

It was example how scaling looks. BTW, do you see improvement in WoW with Metal over OpenGL? In performance, for example.

 

[Samuelsan2001]

It depends on the game. WOW with metal and 50% render scale looks only marginally worse then the native resolution. However the frame rate goes from unplayable to very playable.

Witcher 2 looks pretty good at medium/high settings and 1080P. I'm not seeing blur.

Anything below 1080P looks horrible but thankfully the 395X in the iMac is at least strong enough to handle 1080P in most games.

I'm hopeful that the next generation iMac will be able to run most games at at least 1440P. If the graphics chip is a good improvement I'll sell my current iMac and get the new one. However in terms of CPU the current 6700K is more then enough.

Edit:

Question:

The linked external graphics enclosures? Do I have to do hacking to make them work or are they plug and play?

Since I have a mobile AMD graphics chip in my iMac would I get crossfire if I went with a AMD card and if so can I apply the crossfire graphics to the internal display?

Due to the in house connector used to get around the lack of any motherboards that would connect a 5k screen when it was developed an external GPU on an iMac will only run another external screen making it a bit pointless when you have that lovely 5k beast in front of you.....