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I think it's a bit of a misguided to believe that Apple has a par-Windows game machine in their lineup at all.

The Mac Pro is even less of an all-round home entertainment machine as it's comparable Windows brethren (if you purchased the Pro as a gaming-capable, or even gaming-centric machine), the likes of the Precision 4/690. It has very little chance hoping to match real Windows all-round home entertainment machines even at release.

Its not really about games, although it is a significant issue if you're hoping to do some boot camping. The question as I see it is really more about what you're getting in the style vs substance stakes if you're technically literate, and whether you're happy with that balance.
 
The GPU in this sucker stinks so bad is that there is something on the horizon...............like a gamming machine coming out soon???

eeehhhh.maybe?

Trout

Apart from the obvious trolling, I wonder why people say that...is it worse than the previous GPU? Is it useless to play any non-bleeding edge games? I don't think so, sorry...:rolleyes:

Apart from the glossy screen which I don't fancy that much, the new iMac is simply THE BEST consumer desktop out there in all counts...even Cnet acknowledges this now.
 
I don't understand why everyone is hating the iMac. It seems like it is mostly gamers that are complaining about the graphics card. The iMac was not built for gamers. They need to get a Mac Pro or a PC.

I don't see what is wrong with a glossy screen. Have a window shining on it? Close the blinds.
 
I'm not at all surprised by the GAMING COMMUNITY coming out once again to talk down the iMac and the lackluster video card/processors/etc. that it is under the hood. They're here at every speedbump and reinvention of the iMac, but they simply don't get it:

The iMac is NOT FOR YOU.

I know why you're out and proud and upset... the machine looks great and you really would like to have it in your dorm or room or living area. But it's just not upgradable and it's too slow and it now has a glossy screen... that's all good. But realize that you simply are barking up the wrong tree. Jobs is not selling to you. That doesn't make the iMac a bad buy as CNET has graciously given very high marks/words for it. The computer you need is one that can grow with your pastime. You need a tower that is modifiable in every way and there are plenty out there. Sure they're PCs but then most of the games you want to play are made for that OS. Buy a PC and enjoy your gaming.

And finally, please, realize that the iMac was not designed for your hobby in mind.

Couldn't agree more. Most "gaming specialists" posting here are the ones after pure benchmarks and geeky tweaks, without any clue whatsoever as to what the ordinary consumer really needs and wants.

I still have my iMac G5 2.0 and play 3, that's it, THREE games on it with more than enough performance for my "geriatric" GPU (a Radeon 9600)...Neverwinter Nights, Call of Duty and Doomsday, apart from other casual freeware games. Face it, Apple does not need you...and if you really wanna spend 4 thousand grand on something to play games, go ahead and buy a MacPro or a ridiculously bulky behemoth such as AlienWare.

I am glad SJ doesn't fall for these childish market traps which bring only consumer confusion and a nerdish race for FPS rates that means nothing to 99% of the world.

Once more, go ahead and buy your ugly PC box; if you are into gaming, that's gonna make you happy. There's much more to life and quality than bleeding edge gaming for real Apple users.
 
For a counter-example, HL2:E1, roughly 1 year old, runs exceptionally well on my 1.5 year-old iMac. I expect Episode 2 will also run great. World of Warcraft runs great. The Sims titles will run great. Maybe games like this are the exception and not the rule, but I'm just pointing out that it's not like all new games are unplayable on the iMac. You are NOT doing brand new FPS on an iMac (unless it's made by Valve, apparently), but other than that you're okay.

I would say that sometimes the iMacs graphics end up being better than others with each new revision: sometimes subpar compared to the competetion, sometimes fairly competent. This revision seems to be one of the "subpar" ones... I'd wager rev B will be better (allowing games like UT3 to at least be playable with decent settings).

Sorry to say but where did you see WoW run great on an imac?
I have the last G5 with the 2.1ghz cpu and the X600XT gpu and i can tell you that in a raid i was getting the wooping number of 5-10 frames per second if i was lucky and when i was moving to a city 10-15 fps...:rolleyes:
I wonder,Apple put a 8600GT gpu on a macbook pro and can't handle the heat on the imac???I guess no one would complain in here if apple did put the same gpu on imac's,i mean other than that the machine is great for a AIO.
I guess also that if it wasn't for EA id etc. in the WWDC with Steve saying that games come back in the mac also no one would have high hopes as well.
The only thing left from that is that Apple is going to make a new machine or a very fast upgrade on iMac's,MacWold anyone?
 
Couldn't agree more. Most "gaming specialists" posting here are the ones after pure benchmarks and geeky tweaks, without any clue whatsoever as to what the ordinary consumer really needs and wants.

I am glad SJ doesn't fall for these childish market traps which bring only consumer confusion and a nerdish race for FPS rates that means nothing to 99% of the world.

Once more, go ahead and buy your ugly PC box; if you are into gaming, that's gonna make you happy. There's much more to life and quality than bleeding edge gaming for real Apple users.

Funnily enough, most of the stroppy posts about this issue seem to stem from the non "gaming specialists". Well, if the ordinary Mac consumer was to take your kind of advice & buy an "ugly PC box", what do you think would happen to Mac marketshare? I think you'd see a fairly major dip.

As for what the ordinary consumer wants? I think most consumers want a computer to satisfy a number of popular interests, gaming being just one of them. The graphics on these new iMacs would be fine on upgradable computers, but on new AIOs they're fairly disappointing.

BTW, I have a Mac, always will do, but I'm now considering a PC as well. Thanks to Apple's limited range of consumer computers your advice to buy "ugly PC boxes" is appreciated, but quite unnecessary. Cheers!
 
First time poster here. Hello everyone.

My interest in the iMac is running 3D software, (not games.) along with a variety of illustration and multimedia software (photoshop, flash, inkscape, textmate, coda etc.) Anyone have an idea how Maya or similar might run on the system? I would think that it would do fairly well within reason, especially with upgraded RAM. Much of the same as in most games at reasonable settings.

Reading the ARS review I'm a bit confused as to the issues of many here, the benchmarks don't seem that bad. I'm pretty sure I'll be ok on the unit. The benchmarks show a marked improvement over the previous iMac and the screen (from what I've seen at the shop) is much more crisp in comparison.

Any opinions are appreciated.
 
First time poster here. Hello everyone.

My interest in the iMac is running 3D software, (not games.) along with a variety of illustration and multimedia software (photoshop, flash, inkscape, textmate, coda etc.) Anyone have an idea how Maya or similar might run on the system? I would think that it would do fairly well within reason, especially with upgraded RAM. Much of the same as in most games at reasonable settings.

Reading the ARS review I'm a bit confused as to the issues of many here, the benchmarks don't seem that bad. I'm pretty sure I'll be ok on the unit. The benchmarks show a marked improvement over the previous iMac and the screen (from what I've seen at the shop) is much more crisp in comparison.

Any opinions are appreciated.

Check www.barefeats.com for some benchs on 3D software for most if not all Macs. My perception is that the new iMac excels at pretty much any ordinary activity out there. If you intend to use pro apps without a lot of expectations, you're gonna be happy.

The Core 2 Duo proc is more than enough for most tasks in the real world, and the iMac GPU is not that shabby either.

And remember: the only people complaining here are PC gamers that love the iMac but wanna have a 8800 inside a 1-inch case at the same time...it's not gonna happen, and I am glad Apple is not letting that happen.

For pretty much everyone else, the iMac is THE BEST desktop out there, hands down.
 
First time poster here. Hello everyone.

My interest in the iMac is running 3D software, (not games.) along with a variety of illustration and multimedia software (photoshop, flash, inkscape, textmate, coda etc.) Anyone have an idea how Maya or similar might run on the system? I would think that it would do fairly well within reason, especially with upgraded RAM. Much of the same as in most games at reasonable settings.

Yes. The iMac can run 3D software and most pro apps, incluiding Adobe, Apple, and most Autodesk. I have used mine for most of Adobe and Apple pro apps, without any complaints. I was surprised how well system works in comparison to the Mac Pro I have at work. I can only notice a speed difference when I do heavy rendering.

I haven't tried Maya yet, but I did a mosquito model in 3D Studio Max and it seems to work fine.
 
And remember: the only people complaining here are PC gamers that love the iMac but wanna have a 8800 inside a 1-inch case at the same time...it's not gonna happen, and I am glad Apple is not letting that happen.

For pretty much everyone else, the iMac is THE BEST desktop out there, hands down.

You couldn't have been more wrong than this,i have a G5 with the isight,before that i had a powerbook g4 15" with 1.5ghz cpu and before that an imac g4.
Most people say that apple sould put a 8600GT or 8600GTS as an option at list for BTO,they can but they didn't and thats a mistake from apple for sure.
On the other hand i really can't wait to see how apple will handle-support EA,epic and id when they announce that there games are ready to ship for mac's(WWDC07 remember):rolleyes:
 
You couldn't have been more wrong than this,i have a G5 with the isight,before that i had a powerbook g4 15" with 1.5ghz cpu and before that an imac g4.
Most people say that apple sould put a 8600GT or 8600GTS as an option at list for BTO,they can but they didn't and thats a mistake from apple for sure.
On the other hand i really can't wait to see how apple will handle-support EA,epic and id when they announce that there games are ready to ship for mac's(WWDC07 remember):rolleyes:

Sorry, Apple is driven by DESIGN, not by the latest GPU. The iMac ATis are great for any normal work and home activities, including HD video; bleeding-edge games are for PC gamers with their ugly AlienWare boxes and console fans.

As for EA and the others, they look like John Sculley announcing full support to the Apple II just before phasing it out...I don't quite believe them and I couldn't care less...they will all crawl back to Apple based on market growth, not WWDC announcements.
 
Thank you both for your replies. And the excellent link definitely is a good resource. Showed me a few things that makes me not believe the negative perspective of many here.

In many ways the constant back and forth I've witnessed here confuses people and I wish that opinions would be more objective and from those with first hand experience. Like I appreciate the information from the individual whose iMac was DOA. Really those complaining don't seem to realize that they are getting a great deal for $1199+.

20" beautiful widescreen LCD screen
Santa Rosa 2.0GHz Intel Core 2 Duo 4 MB L2 Cache
250 GB 7200 RPM HD
DVD/CD Burner
Access to inexpensive high quality processing and database software
Insanely low priced protection plan available.
Better quality hardware in comparison to competitors.

One interesting thing to note in regards to gaming is this quote on the HD 2600 XT and PRO cards sourced from Extreme Tech:

"Ouch. The first thing you'll notice is that the bars for ATI's new mid-to-low range cards are twice as long as those for the GeForce cards. Is this a preview of what we can expect from all DX10 titles using these cards? The second, and more important, takeaway point is that all these cards are cripplingly slow. 10 frames per second? Six? If these scores are any indication, you're going to have to spend more than $200 on a graphics card to have any hope of running games in DX10 mode. Of course, you could reduce detail levels quite a bit to make things run faster, but that sort of defeats the whole purpose of DX10 if you have to make the game look worse than it does in DX9 mode."
 
Can't... resist... posting...

Sheesh guys, if you disagree fine, but stop misrepresenting what we say.

1. We aren't talking high end gaming. A decent mid-range card isn't that expensive. It could probably be a $50-$150 BTO option. Take another look at that ExtremeTech article. The 2600XT which is $30-$50 more, performs significantly better. (although they are talking desktop versions, not the mobility versions, I think.)

2. We are anxiously awaiting real benchmarks, but the preliminary ones don't look good. Macworld found the previous generation's 7300 (not even the BTO 7600) slower than the 2600 Pro.
http://www.macworld.com/2007/08/firstlooks/imacbenchmarks/index.php

Barefeats reports similarly: "The only concern is the performance of the Radeon HD 2600 Pro graphics processor -- which Anandtech shows running Prey slower than the optional GeForce 7600 GT available on the "late 2006" model."
http://www.barefeats.com/quick.html

3. We think it's stupid to ignore this market especially since the iMac IS a great machine otherwise. Why give people a reason to stick with Windows?

4. It's not the end of the world, but we hope Apple is listening!

5. We still love our Macs and our Mac brethren who don't see this as a problem.

Peace.
 
From the 2600xt? thread it looks like the graphics card (2600) is a custom Apple-only version of the Mobility XT, maybe underclocked like the X1600 was on the 1st gen MBPs. I would have liked to see more BTO options on these iMacs, especially considering you can't do anything after purchase really. Matte screen, range of CPU options, GPUs, etc. Either that or have the back flip open to allow for future upgrades.

After doing some comparison shopping with Dell and HP, they seem to be fairly good price-wise save for the Dimension with the Q6600 and 2GB RAM which seems better value but then that is a noisy, hot, bulky, cable-laden tower so really hardware-wise things are fairly competitive.

I am slowly warming to these new iMacs after a fairly dismal first impression. If they really do have the 2600XT card in them (by the way there is no Mobility Pro variant from ATI), then that might just sway me to purchase a couple.
 
Well just made a quick trip to the Mac dealer around the corner. (I live a mere 10 minutes away :D ) I brought my 512 MB thumbdrive with me and got permission to try Blender out on the 24-inch model. The drive fit wonderfully into the keyboard USB port which made me happy since that was a concern of mine, it would be awkward to repeatedly reach behind the system to plug it in the back.

I downloaded one of the Project Orange Blender files that weighed in at ~100 MB. The scene animated smoothly in realtime which was shocking due to the file size and amount of animation taking place in the scene. And viewport navigation was smooth and easy despite the large file size and model polycount. I'll admit it was weird using the mouse and the keyboard though, a bit different in feel than my experience with Window PC based hardware. The last time I used a Mac daily was on a G3 at work many years ago.
 
Sorry, Apple is driven by DESIGN, not by the latest GPU. The iMac ATis are great for any normal work and home activities, including HD video; bleeding-edge games are for PC gamers with their ugly AlienWare boxes and console fans.

As for EA and the others, they look like John Sculley announcing full support to the Apple II just before phasing it out...I don't quite believe them and I couldn't care less...they will all crawl back to Apple based on market growth, not WWDC announcements.

Just out of curiousity what is bleeding edge game for you?
Because i find it hard for a game that is 2 years old to be under that category.:)
I don't doubt that ati's(the ones apple use) are ok for home use and for people above 40,but i find it hard that apple is looking to sell only in this category of people there machines.
Also i don't doubt that is a design driven company but that doesn't stop them to put something that fits on a macbook pro,it is thinner than an imac.
Anyway thank you for the responce. :)
 
Just out of curiousity what is bleeding edge game for you?
Because i find it hard for a game that is 2 years old to be under that category.:)
I don't doubt that ati's(the ones apple use) are ok for home use and for people above 40,but i find it hard that apple is looking to sell only in this category of people there machines.
Also i don't doubt that is a design driven company but that doesn't stop them to put something that fits on a macbook pro,it is thinner than an imac.
Anyway thank you for the responce. :)

Let's put it this way...the people I work or interact with aren't concerned AT ALL with whatever GPUs they might have in their PCs or Macs, and live perfectly well with that.

We tend to get a totally obtuse view in forums like this, presuming that the WHOLE consumer market is made of posters ranting about the absence of a 8800 GTXYR blablabla or the fact that they can only reach 40fps and not 53fps as shown in some geeky site. These 2 companies called ATi and NVIDIA are EVERYDAY launching stupid new GPUs and I don't get a clue what the differences mean, apart from 5 or 10% improvements that mean ZILT to me and billions of people. Yet, people in this forum continue to cry for the bleeding edge, even if the current things serve them more than enough.

Please show me a SINGLE study PROVING that normal people really worry about upgrading something else beyond RAM memory...no, you won't find it; and that's why Apple sells Macs and not beige boxes; to keep it simple and tidy to 99% of the market. Even the MacMini, a headless Mac, follows this rule of simplicity.

When I talk about normal games, I talk about the Mac universe of games and the related universe of NORMAL consumers like me or the girl next door; people who are not buying games every day because they have to either work, study or clean up the flat in 75% of their daily hours. I bought Call of Duty two years ago and I still play it a lot, as do lots of PC users (at least the online servers are always crowded, and they all say CoD 2 is worse). I bought Doomsday and NWN to have some strategy/RPG game with me, even though I barely have time for'em.

Does Warcraft play badly on the new iMacs? Surely not. Does CoD 2 play badly on them? Of course not. What about The Sims, the other Mac RPGs or even the newer simulation games available from Aspyr or MacSoft? ALL of them play at least acceptably well for us all.

I am TOTALLY sure that we would have a thousand PC whiners here EVEN if we had the 2600XT, or if Apple had chosen to keep the seemingly better 7600GT. This is the market Apple DOESN'T WANT to cater to, because these people are ALWAYS dissatisfied. They crave for numbers, not real-life usefulness. These people always want the latest, without ever knowing why things such as the iPod, the iMac or the iPhone are HUGELY SUCCESSFUL.

Reason? Once more, simplicity and integration. For those not seeing the obvious, PCs will keep on serving them well, with their thousand cables, card readers that nobody cares about, unstable and fugly OSs, ridiculously ugly MOBOs and those uncountable features that are never used by normal people.

I hope this clarifies my point once and for all. Is it better to have the best GPU? Sure. Will it satisfy the whiners? Never. Go see the iMac, check it for your needs and see why Apple sells at 3x the industry rate. If Macs fit your needs, buy them. If not, go for a PC or a console, both of them cheapo and ubiquitous.
 
Just out of curiousity what is bleeding edge game for you?
Because i find it hard for a game that is 2 years old to be under that category.

Thank you!
Apple should be EMBARRASSED by the GPUs in these Macs. Anyone who wants to play light gaming in the next 3-4 years (guessed lifespan) is going to be disappointed in 1yr when their Imac won't play nada. Oh wait, you can always play games at 640 x 480! I forgot. Game on Imacs!!
 
BTW, I have a Mac, always will do, but I'm now considering a PC as well. Thanks to Apple's limited range of consumer computers your advice to buy "ugly PC boxes" is appreciated, but quite unnecessary. Cheers!

I don't have a mac yet. My only option is the Mac Mini. But it is crazy I have to have 2 computers in order to do all I want. Grr, may just have to stick with Windoze for a while longer as I am not in Apple's customer base. Hmm, there is only OSx86 I guess, but that kinda defeats the purpose of buying a Mac (i.e. make computing simpler).
 
Well as i said above i have an imac...and on the back i have 5 cables running,..yes 5 (sounds like pc doesn't it?) 1 for external HD,1 for external dvd-wr(yup matsushita sucks big time),1 for my mouse,1 for my modem and 1 for my headset,i guess that means mac's are just pc's as all are OSX running or winblows.
Point is 98% of world market is a pc market,not because they love to have blue screens every now on then or freeze crash etc.,but because apple doesn't give something that could give a smille to many of the people that are forced in the end to go and buy a pc,why?
I don't believe that is the upgrades that they ask for,(not 50% of the market anyway)but the lack of basic things on an apple computer,...hell i don't care to upgrade my imac's hardware(they are just fine as they are) at all, i just want for apple to respect me and my money and give me at list a head starts with a 8600GT like MBP's have,that could keep the imac good and running for more than 5 months that is the next macworld event.
I do believe like many say in here that mac's will never be a gaming computer and i really don't care,i am not a gamer myself (if you take away WoW) BUT besides OSX mac's are overpriced machines.
Also guys you sould stop defending apple once in a whille,maybe that will do some good to us the mac users and see Steve one day to give something that worth's 2 months of paycheck.
Btw the new imac 20" with the 2600HD pro costs 2130$ in my country.
 
I don't have a mac yet. My only option is the Mac Mini. But it is crazy I have to have 2 computers in order to do all I want. Grr, may just have to stick with Windoze for a while longer as I am not in Apple's customer base. Hmm, there is only OSx86 I guess, but that kinda defeats the purpose of buying a Mac (i.e. make computing simpler).

I don't think you'd regret buying a Mini, but I'd consider waiting for Leopard in October & then perhaps get the cheaper combo Mini. Yes, it may seem a bit "crazy" having 2 computers, then again you may also consider it as having the best of both worlds. Bar gaming, there really isn't a thing that Macs aren't much better at than PCs. There are of course a number of games that will run quite well on a Mini, just not the graphically-intensive ones.

Personally, I'm still after a desktop Mac to complement my G4 iBook & see the Mini combo as an affordable solution, perhaps allowing me to fit in at least a mid-range PC tower for gaming later on. So I might end up with 3 computers. Even crazier! But what the hell, life's too short to worry about such stuff. At least the tower, unlike the iMac, can be upgraded over the years.

Overall, it's good to debate these things, however much it may sometimes upset acolytes of the Church of Apple.
 
Sorry, Apple is driven by DESIGN, not by the latest GPU. The iMac ATis are great for any normal work and home activities, including HD video; bleeding-edge games are for PC gamers with their ugly AlienWare boxes and console fans.
/QUOTE]

I'm just curious, what games do you consider not "bleeding edge"? Let me help... Yes or No...are these games bleeding edge:

- XPlane
- Warbirds
- Quake IV
- Battlefield 1942

If not...tell me what the minimum frame rates are going to be on the 24" iMac at it's native resolution and Medium settings.


Time to put some facts to this discussion....
 
Sorry, Apple is driven by DESIGN, not by the latest GPU. The iMac ATis are great for any normal work and home activities, including HD video; bleeding-edge games are for PC gamers with their ugly AlienWare boxes and console fans.
/QUOTE]

I'm just curious, what games do you consider not "bleeding edge"? Let me help... Yes or No...are these games bleeding edge:

- XPlane
- Warbirds
- Quake IV
- Battlefield 1942

If not...tell me what the minimum frame rates are going to be on the 24" iMac at it's native resolution and Medium settings.


Time to put some facts to this discussion....

None of them are bleeding edge; but do I need to play them at the native resolution? I never did that with CoD on my G5, especially because the image scaling gets messed up and a bit tiny...

As for frame rates, visit www.barefeats.com

Edit: just check it out at http://www.barefeats.com/imcd4.html

Not shabby at all for an older C2D iMac...in summary, the iMac plays those games at more than satisfactory speeds for any normal gamer out there, including UT2004, Doom 3 and Quake.
 
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