Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
i think the original post is actually spot on with his assesment. but like he said Many of us, him and myself included will still go ahead and buy an iMac regardless because it takes a lot of headache and effort to remove yourself from the apple "ecosystem"

For the higher end iMac, maybe its not a big deal, expected to pay around 2k and that's what we are paying for it, but it sucks that they haven't either lowered the price of the lower end or improved the specs to justify the price.

Imagine had they of just made a small SSD standard as part of a fusion drive, would not of cost them much, the reception would of been more positive and the anti-Mac trolls would have less to feed on.

Many would argue and they've done what they have always done and that it makes sensible business sense, but public perception of your Brand is also important to some extent and there is only so long you can pull moves like this before it starts having a negative effect on your business. That may not be now, may not be with their next release but certainly that bar is floating in the balance more then ever before, because if I am writing this and many close friends label me as a fanboy then something is up !

But I hope u understand that those of us bashing apple for not allowing any kind of ssd in 1300 dollars machine are NOT anti mac trolls... we are just really dissapointed by the way apple has chosen - rather squeezing its loyal customers than building the best computers on the planet (yes, i know, i can pay 1750 dollars to get 128 gigs SSD - sorry, but the price for such a tiny SSD is a joke, and 1300 dollars machine without SSD in 2013 is even worse kind of joke).
 
Last edited:
But I hope u understand that those of us bashing apple for not allowing any kind of ssd in 1300 dollars machine are NOT anti mac trolls... we are just really dissapointed by the way apple has chosen - rather squeezing its loyal customers than building the best computers on the planet (yes, i know, i can pay 1750 dollars to get 128 gigs SSD - sorry, but the price for such a tiny SSD is a joke, and 1300 dollars machine in 2013 is even worse kind of joke).

absolutely and that "troll" mention was not directed at those people and I agree with you on your points, but just saying it also gives fuel to those people who are so anti-mac they are waiting for something to troll about and jump on the bandwagon.
 
The reason Apple is doing this is so that they have something to put into the next revision. It is plain as day.

This is much like the omission of a camera in the 1st iPad and a crappy camera in the 2nd iPad; as well as omitting retina in the 2nd gen iPad and now the iPad mini.

The next revision of iMacs probably around March or Summer is going to have better specs (it has to) so what are they going to upgrade with? Probably faster Hard Drives, maybe make SSD standard on the basic model.

They might pop in a retina display too, or they might save that for the 3rd revision of this design. By then the prices would have come down a bit since Apple is already placing large orders for retina and the manufacturers are using expertise to bring costs down since it's now a real thing.

A big cosmetic upgrade like a retina display is also enough for Apple not to have to worry about changing form factors or doing anything outside its comfort zone for a while. That's why I think it will be a revision 3 upgrade. That way this iMac with just minor spec changes will carry Apple into 2014 maybe early 2015. By then their R&D will be done designing the next big thing.

I also wouldn't be surprised to see OS innovations that are artificially locked away from previous models to be a big part of Apple's iMac revisions going forward as they have been on iOS for some time now.

Depending on how my traveling schedule goes, I may just buy the 2nd or 3rd revision of this iMac. I think my requirement is going to be a retina display (as I can already afford the higher end models with SSD and such). Once they add retina to the iMac I will buy.

For now, I will stick to my MBPr as I am traveling internationally heavily at the moment and going into 2013 possibly early 2014.
 
I have to generally agree with the OP.

My 2008 iMac is still going strong, but I have been thinking about eventually replacing it. This is the computer that moved me to Apple, but I'd have to think long and hard about buying another one.

There is really just no excuse for designing a desktop computer like this. Sure, in a device that is in your pocket or being held all day, there is an acceptable trade off for making devices this hard to service, but nobody was asking for a drastically thinner and lighter iMac, especially at the cost of performance.

I know Apple is always quick to ditch old tech, but on a desktop computer, I still use the DVD drive frequently as the movie studios still aren't playing along with the digital era. Adding an external drive dilutes the point of an all-in-one.

The 5400rpm drive is bad enough, but it is also now 2.5" rather than 3.5" and that will cause a HUGE hit to performance. Laptop drives are painfully, I'd argue nearly unusably slow in 2012. To add to the insult, they got rid of the extremely elegant system of magnets holding the panel on which made service difficult but far from impossible to a glued panel that basically seals these machines for life. The only one who benefits from this design change is Apple.

In the past Apple has always done things like this to encourage you to spend more money up front, but it's a fine line they were walking, which for a long time they stayed on the proper side of by making decisions that were not 100% based on profit. It's beginning to feel more and more like they have irreversibly crossed to the other side.
 
There is really just no excuse for designing a desktop computer like this. Sure, in a device that is in your pocket or being held all day, there is an acceptable trade off for making devices this hard to service, but nobody was asking for a drastically thinner and lighter iMac, especially at the cost of performance.

And this precious bit of info is based exactly on what? MMM...let me guess...what YOU wanted from the iMac?

Let me enlighten you a bit:

1- Apple is not in the market yo please you.
2- Apple is in the market to make as much money as possible.
3- They believe that in order to achieve the objective, they need to design premium priced products and convince the mainstream consumer mass to buy into them.

So, they actually prefer to sell to 9MM people that look at the iMac and say "wow, it's gorgeus, i want it" than to the 1MM that say "wow, what a cleverly engineered product, and how much value for money in there".
And guess what, they are right.

Now, besides that, i would be really, really curious to understand what people on earth are whining about performance etc., and their desperate need to have the latest and greatest CPU.
You're all doing video-editing for Hollywood i guess...well, wait a bit more and grab the MacPros next year then, leave these stupidly designed iMacs to the mass.
 
It is what it is, sold to a hungry market for what it does.

And yes it could be cheaper, and it could be more cutting end, better components, yada, yada.

Like a new car, it is not designed to be upgraded or customized by the tinkerer.
Nothing wrong, or right with that, but not one of Apples market concerns.

Apple is not there to be the base of the roll your own market mixing and matching components outside their ecosystem.

I buy because it suites a need and I have not found anything else that is crafted and, works as well.
Not for a few dollars more have I found anything better.
Not for a few dollars less have I found anything comparable.

Don't look to Samsung, Asus, Lenovo, as most other manufactures are not innovating but trying to copy Apples form and function to get a piece of their market share.

And maybe they will succeed.
And if they make a better mouse trap I will most likely buy one.

If you find something (an all in one pc, performance, stylish, supported) by all means please let us know.

If Apple doesn't do it for you don't buy one.
 
And this precious bit of info is based exactly on what? MMM...let me guess...what YOU wanted from the iMac?

Let me enlighten you a bit:

1- Apple is not in the market yo please you.
2- Apple is in the market to make as much money as possible.
3- They believe that in order to achieve the objective, they need to design premium priced products and convince the mainstream consumer mass to buy into them.

So, they actually prefer to sell to 9MM people that look at the iMac and say "wow, it's gorgeus, i want it" than to the 1MM that say "wow, what a cleverly engineered product, and how much value for money in there".
And guess what, they are right.

Now, besides that, i would be really, really curious to understand what people on earth are whining about performance etc., and their desperate need to have the latest and greatest CPU.
You're all doing video-editing for Hollywood i guess...well, wait a bit more and grab the MacPros next year then, leave these stupidly designed iMacs to the mass.

You missed the point, totally... no one says that apple is here to please us.. we are just saying that apple has moved far from position "create the best computer" to position "squeeze as much money as you can", that saddens me as several years apple fanboy

And second thing, what is so difficult to understand about our need for SSD? It si gonna be standard in 2013, computers without SSD are simply obsolete, but not in apples desktop world (all apple laptops except obsolete mb pro ale ssd only now, so how is that desktop class got worse tech than mobile one, funny apple world)
 
You missed the point, totally... no one says that apple is here to please us.. we are just saying that apple has moved far from position "create the best computer" to position "squeeze as much money as you can", that saddens me as several years apple fanboy

And second thing, what is so difficult to understand about our need for SSD? It si gonna be standard in 2013, computers without SSD are simply obsolete, but not in apples desktop world (all apple laptops except obsolete mb pro ale ssd only now, so how is that desktop class got worse tech than mobile one, funny apple world)

Exactly. There is a huge difference between the old iMac philosophy which seemed to be to build the best computer possible for the masses, and this new one, which is build the computer that will make us the most money.

----------

And this precious bit of info is based exactly on what? MMM...let me guess...what YOU wanted from the iMac?

Let me enlighten you a bit:

1- Apple is not in the market yo please you.
2- Apple is in the market to make as much money as possible.
3- They believe that in order to achieve the objective, they need to design premium priced products and convince the mainstream consumer mass to buy into them.

So, they actually prefer to sell to 9MM people that look at the iMac and say "wow, it's gorgeus, i want it" than to the 1MM that say "wow, what a cleverly engineered product, and how much value for money in there".
And guess what, they are right.

Now, besides that, i would be really, really curious to understand what people on earth are whining about performance etc., and their desperate need to have the latest and greatest CPU.
You're all doing video-editing for Hollywood i guess...well, wait a bit more and grab the MacPros next year then, leave these stupidly designed iMacs to the mass.

Please. This is a rehash of what has become a popular meme here. Take some time to think deeply about the issue before posting someone else's ideas.
 
a Quote by Steve Jobs


"Our goal is to make the best devices in the world, not to be the biggest"

& another one


"And how are monopolies lost? Think about it. Some very good product people invent some very good products, and the company achieves a monopoly. But after that, the product people aren't the ones that drive the company forward anymore. It's the marketing guys or the ones who expand the business into Latin America or whatever. Because what's the point of focusing on making the product even better when the only company you can take business from is yourself? So a different group of people start to move up. And who usually ends up running the show? The sales guy. John Akers at IBM is the consummate example. Then one day, the monopoly expires for whatever reason. But by then the best product people have left, or they're no longer listened to. And so the company goes through this tumultuous time, and it either survives or it doesn't. Look at Microsoft — who's running Microsoft?"
 
These kind of threads are disheartening for those of us who chose the base model with default HD. Perhaps it is actually sufficient for some of us?

I can see where people are coming from when they suggest that we have been forced into a corner by Apple: having to upgrade to the higher end 21.5" just to have the option to go with Fusion. Plus, I have to admit that I wonder why spinning disks are still being used at all.....but.....that said, I don't feel ripped off having decided to opt for the entry level iMac. I really need access to the OS, and these are the terms, whether I like it or not. It is possible to position oneself somewhere (albeit not always comfortably) between 'fanboy' and critic. I'm kinda fascinated by this polarity, but then I am still relatively new to macrumors, if not remotely new to Apple.

I think that the entry level machine will suit many users. I do 'pro' work, and will use the system to make a living, but my workload doesn't force me to soup up to the max. Fusion? It will depend entirely upon the individual and their needs. It would have been nice, sure, but personally I would prefer to wait a little while before taking the plunge, so shall opt to write my files to an external SSD. I simply couldn't justify the expense to myself at this moment in time. Maybe later?

I am surprised by the apparent terror exhibited when it comes to not opting for Fusion.

Let's wait and see if opening up the front screen with magnets and then taping it back will void your warranty or not, and then you can always stick in a momentus xt (don't go for the 500gb model itsn't worth it), maybe even a new mxt coming out soon probably (they are hybrid hard drives with flash). Toshiba has got some hybrids too, but they 've not been tested so far. If you are comfortable of course with doing this tweak, shouldn't be hard at all. And the hybrid hard drive, if you give it a few weeks to a month, will learn your usage and optimize it via the included flash. These things are quite good (and within a year better ones will be out), you can get close to ssd speeds, I have one in my mini.

----------

just to add balance.... you scoff at $450 ?.....try over 1k for final cut studio 2 alone then you have the cost of photoshop, lightroom, thunderbolt drives...
yeaaa....minor investment right....


edit. to go one further i'd include my iPad & iPhone as part of that ecosystem

For the record it's +$450 for the fusion, that's $1749 for the 21.5" with 128gb ssd, and it's got nothing to do with my investment in the ecosystem, which consists of a couple of ipads, a couple of imacs, two macbooks, a mini, various external firewire drives and peripherals, ipod of course, and about 3k in software. I am not claiming I am running a small business with macs, but to my standard of living and finances this is a considerable investment.
 
I have had a g4 iBook that got barely cut off by leopard (I hacked it to run leopard) and now my 2006 macbook is cut off from updates (I would hack to run it but graphics drivers have issues) and I am about to buy the macbook 2008 aluminum (the oldest macbook 13 inch supported) and that will probably fail me in a year...

Yeah, I was talking in reference to the fact that the OP says Apple is screwing him over. I agree that the PowerPC to Intel transition didn't go so well if you had invested in PowerPC machines before it. Fortunately for me, all the machines in my signature were acquired well after the transition, so I knew what I was getting into, and, because of the premature lack of support, they were cheap.
 
MOD NOTE.

Please keep on topic, and not PSRI related.
 
Last edited:
Let's wait and see if opening up the front screen with magnets and then taping it back will void your warranty or not, and then you can always stick in a momentus xt (don't go for the 500gb model itsn't worth it), maybe even a new mxt coming out soon probably (they are hybrid hard drives with flash). Toshiba has got some hybrids too, but they 've not been tested so far. If you are comfortable of course with doing this tweak, shouldn't be hard at all. And the hybrid hard drive, if you give it a few weeks to a month, will learn your usage and optimize it via the included flash. These things are quite good (and within a year better ones will be out), you can get close to ssd speeds, I have one in my mini.


I'm a bit perplexed by this reply to my comment, for nothing about it really argues against your own. I never said anything about replacing any hardware myself. I have no experience with this sort of thing and had to think long and hard about it before purchasing. I belong to that category of users who, although passionate about my work (creative) have absolutely no tech skills whatsoever. We are all going to need different things from our system, which is pretty much all that I was attempting to emphasize. :confused:
 
...

Sorry you didn't get my points, maybe in the future you might, I have more than 20 years of experience in the area to know what I am talking about. I am not entitled to anything other than not being screwed over by apple. Hard drive speeds circa 2003 in 2013, for a $100 price spike is screwing me over, +$450 for a small ssd to the already expensive retail price is screwing me over. It's 300-400% margins when the rest of the biz is going with 5-15% margins.
...
yeah it's weird why you don't feel screwed over, cause you are, and royally so, the thing with apple is they have a knack of making you liking it and forgetting about it.

First, I didn't post my comparison pictures of the new and old iMacs. The pictures don't looks like real life, so I think they would just cause confusion. So don't look for them on the forum.

I think you're exaggerating. "hard drive speeds circa 2003 in 2013"? C'mon, it's still 2012. Can you point to a 2003 disk, at anything approaching consumer prices, that performed as well at the 21.5" iMac disks of today? (And what were its power and noise characteristics?)

The hard disk is probably a step backwards, granted. (I'll wait for benchmarks to make up my mind for sure.) All the other major parts are newer and better than before, which is the least I'd hope for. The base price increase seems mostly fair to me, because I think the new screen construction is probably a lot more expensive to make than the old one. There are other ways to assemble screens, and cheaper ways to reduce glare (while perhaps harming viewing quality in other ways). You may not agree with the way Apple did it. Eh.

300%-400% margins? Really? Seems entirely far fetched to me. If they really had such high margins, they'd cut them to 200% and take market share until the anti-trust regulators shut them down.

I think the base 21.5" iMac is Apple's version of a "loss leader". They probably made it very cheap, well below their gross margin goal for the product line. They want to offer something for the very cost-sensitive customers (most companies do this) but they DON'T want to sell the bulk of the product mix this low. They want to upsell with better features, and mostly sell systems at their "normal" gross margin. Seems pretty common in the computer business. Pretty common with other products like cars too. The cheapest versions of many products have some pretty undesirable features.

I don't feel screwed over, partly because I'm NOT extremely price sensitive. I'll buy a 27" iMac which is a better bang for my buck, because I have the bucks. If I had to buy the base 21.5", I'd be a bit disappointed by the missing features and I'd wish for more stuff for less money. I'd probably still buy it, because I don't see a better alternative for me on the market.

But far, far more important to me is my time. Apple is offering systems which are easy to buy, configure, use, and maintain. Performance is excellent (compared to what I have today) and I'll get many years of service out of the system. I could find something for less money with more raw performance, but it would run software that I hate that wastes my time. I could piece together a somewhat better storage solution for the iMac, but the few hundred (at most) I'd save wouldn't justify the time and hassle.

Apple is very good at making usable stuff that meets my needs. They could offer lower prices, but I don't rage at them for choosing not to. All those vendors in the Windows world could offer stuff that wastes less of my time, and I don't rage at them for choosing not to, either. I choose from what the market offers. If it's a few months later or a couple hundred dollars more expensive than some ideal scenario beyond my control, it really doesn't bother me.
 
For the record it's +$450 for the fusion, that's $1749 for the 21.5" with 128gb ssd

FAIL...


The following is in US dollars.

21 > 1TBFusion = $250
27 > 1TBFusion = $250
27 > 3TB 7200 = $150
27 > 3TBFusion = $ 400 (See that --- it's a difference of 250 dollars)

There are simply too many mistruths being bandied about.
 
FAIL...


The following is in US dollars.

21 > 1TBFusion = $250
27 > 1TBFusion = $250
27 > 3TB 7200 = $150
27 > 3TBFusion = $ 400 (See that --- it's a difference of 250 dollars)

There are simply too many mistruths being bandied about.

But you have to add $200 to the cost of the base 21" to even add the $250 Fusion option. That is where the $450 is coming from.
 
But you have to add $200 to the cost of the base 21" to even add the $250 Fusion option. That is where the $450 is coming from.

Isn't that upgrade for a faster processor and GFX?

If so... the Fusion upgrade is only offered once you make those upgrades. That is not really the same as Fusion itself being a $450 upgrade.

/Jim
 
Been a "Mac" guy for many years, starting with an Apple II, 3 G4s, original iPhone, and so on. Current products are iPad 3rd gen, iPhone 4S, 15" MBPr, and 2010 iMac 27".

In my employment, many people ask me what computer/device they should buy, I've always said "Apple". The immediate reply is always "but they are expensive", to which I would take the time to sell them on the technology and service. And quite a few people went on the buy an Apple device.

But like the OP, I believe Apple is now purposely "under" building and limiting owner installed upgrades. I believe Apple is going out of their way to price and limit options with the goal of "up selling" and creating early obsolescence.

Some may say "so what", it's just good business, perhaps, but it's short term business to me, and I am an Apple share holder.

Lately I find that I can no longer recommend Apple, even to myself. There just isn't enough "value" right now. I hope Apple hears us, and starts correcting their course.

Mauka
 
From what I read, it seems that the new 21.5 uses the same display as the old iMacs. It's just that the same screen is now glued to the glass. The old iMacs had the same screen for quite a while, and I know they are not really bad screens but we are talking about same/"old" technology being inserted into just released products.
 
just to add balance.... you scoff at $450 ?.....try over 1k for final cut studio 2 alone then you have the cost of photoshop, lightroom, thunderbolt drives...
yeaaa....minor investment right....


edit. to go one further i'd include my iPad & iPhone as part of that ecosystem

short sighted decision making skills perhaps?

i wasnt scoffing at $450. i was intrigued by the idea of spending 1400$ on a computer to remain in an ecosystem that has an investment of $450. expecially as OP has stated that hes wishing to exit said ecosystem!.

you can not deny logic.
 
short sighted decision making skills perhaps?

i wasnt scoffing at $450. i was intrigued by the idea of spending 1400$ on a computer to remain in an ecosystem that has an investment of $450. expecially as OP has stated that hes wishing to exit said ecosystem!.

you can not deny logic.

my reference was at the point that the ecosystem is probably worth more then just $450 in comparison.
 
Isn't that upgrade for a faster processor and GFX?

If so... the Fusion upgrade is only offered once you make those upgrades. That is not really the same as Fusion itself being a $450 upgrade.

/Jim

If you want to get a new door handle from me for $50, but I tell you that you got to buy a new door with more reinforcement from me $450, I am charging you +$450 for a door handle. And this is not even an apt example, because the cpu+gpu update (which is very marginal in terms of actual differences, while the fusion itself vs. the 5400rpm really transforms the machine to something that's super fast as opposed to something that really blows) is a minimal bump that shouldn't cost apple more than $50 in total. If you want to take that out of the equation, the fusion still costs +$400. It's a ploy to get you to update, because a lot of people are wise to the fact that marginal gpu and cpu updates aren't cost effective because any way the next gen of cpu and gpu blow them away, and to most people for their needs they are more than just fine. But an ssd is of prime importance to have on computer circa 2013.
 
But like the OP, I believe Apple is now purposely "under" building and limiting owner installed upgrades. I believe Apple is going out of their way to price and limit options with the goal of "up selling" and creating early obsolescence.

Some may say "so what", it's just good business, perhaps, but it's short term business to me, and I am an Apple share holder.

Lately I find that I can no longer recommend Apple, even to myself. There just isn't enough "value" right now. I hope Apple hears us, and starts correcting their course.

Mauka

You are offering far more sanity than can be handled in this thread. May I direct you to the nearest exit?

:D
 
Been a "Mac" guy for many years, starting with an Apple II, 3 G4s, original iPhone, and so on. Current products are iPad 3rd gen, iPhone 4S, 15" MBPr, and 2010 iMac 27".

In my employment, many people ask me what computer/device they should buy, I've always said "Apple". The immediate reply is always "but they are expensive", to which I would take the time to sell them on the technology and service. And quite a few people went on the buy an Apple device.

But like the OP, I believe Apple is now purposely "under" building and limiting owner installed upgrades. I believe Apple is going out of their way to price and limit options with the goal of "up selling" and creating early obsolescence.

Some may say "so what", it's just good business, perhaps, but it's short term business to me, and I am an Apple share holder.

Lately I find that I can no longer recommend Apple, even to myself. There just isn't enough "value" right now. I hope Apple hears us, and starts correcting their course.

Mauka

I am really glad to hear people who have a vested interest in apple doing well, and own apple stock to be also critical of their shortsighted strategy. I too have recommended apple over the years, to tens of people, family, friends, co-workers and done so passionately. Part of the reason I did so what because I thought they were indeed getting value, because as someone said (I don't know if it was Cook or Steve) and back then they were right, nothing is cheap if it can't do what you want it to, or something along those lines.

I came to apple because something like, what, ten or so years ago, I put a pc and a mac side by side with their specs, and to my surprise apple was indeed very good value for money, and where they typically overcharged such as hd's and memory I could always upgrade from third parties myself later on. Not only is this not the case any more, I think they go out of the way to force obsolete products and to take away upgrade options.

Another example: The new retina macbook pro. They could have been a couple of milimiters thicker and included a hd drive. But then you wouldn't have to pay the apple tax to something close to $4000 in total to have around 700gb storage in there.

Even worse: The 13" rmbp, there's a huge gap under the trackpad, that would easily fit a 1.8" (or even 2.5") ssd, but apple instead have stuck a custom port blade ssd (starting at the ludicrous 128gb for pro machine...) there, encased in rubber because this thing is so small it would actually rattle inside (so much for the supposed space saving usage of their custom port ssd...) and all that so the user cannot upgrade to an industry standard ssd. A pro machine, with no discrete graphics, yet driving a retina display and starting at 128gb storage... what the hell are they smoking? Probably the same thing they do when they choose to cripple the mac mini with no discrete graphics (they got to push the mac pro, whenever they finally decide to update it, as opposed to "updating" it like they did a few months ago)...

Nowadays, instead of suggesting people buy apple (that great word of mouth that got them where they are now) I actively discourage people buying apple products. I tell them look, their os isn't what it used to be, windows has not only caught up, it has surpassed it, apple isn't developing os x, they are pretending they are, they've made tons of marketing inspired ui blunders and they keep offloading software development on hardware. Their machines are also not good value anymore. Go windows, get a nice sony or lenovo, a nice hp, cheaper, upgradable and don't pay the apple tax cause it's not worth it anymore.
 
Last edited:
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.