Indonesia Wants Larger Apple Investment to Lift iPhone 16 Ban

[cicalinarrot]

Indonesia has not changed anything about what they want Apple to do?

They did, as part of their protectionist policies, which apply to all.
Not with the deal with Apple. They just refused a proposal. Which means Apple is looking for a deal. No extortion. Apple can just leave or comply with rules.
And let me be clear, I have no idea if this is a good or smart move by Indonesia, just that they have the right to do it.

I'd love your clarification of exactly what happened and when. What laws were passed in Indonesia and what are the agreements between Indonesia and Apple? Has anything changed in how the laws are interpreted? Have any new regulations been implemented or are proposed to be implemented that have made it more difficult for Apple to comply? Are the laws and regulations in accordance with WTO requirements (which Indonesia is part of)?

Edit: Sorry for the double reply, I meant to have this all in one comment.

WTO is just an extension of international pacts that can respond to any measure with countermeasures. This kind of rulings are quite normal, even when targeting single cases sometimes. Nothing exceptional in any step. The new laws are for all, not just Apple. This deal is a proposal by Apple as a way to bypass the law (it's all about money so there's nothing weird about it, Indonesia want's investments and is trying to leverage its power to get them. Again, not sure if that's a smart move, just an absolutely legitimate one.

 

[cicalinarrot]

Certainly they should, if they have competing products. Indonesia has no capability to produce cell phones, computers, tablets, etc. Apple, or any other country, making those products is not going to impact any manufacturing in Indonesia. Name one product that Apple makes, that is also made in Indonesia. Indonesia is trying to extort Apple for money. Apple should just say no and pull out completely. Let Indonesia make their own cell phones, tablets, computers, watches. Let Indonesia show the world they are a technology powerhouse.

Countries with no competing products should be ruled by foreign powers?
Are you a mid-19th-century Englishman?

 

[skadd]

Indonesia first. MIGA

 

[WarmWinterHat]

Certainly they should, if they have competing products. Indonesia has no capability to produce cell phones, computers, tablets, etc. Apple, or any other country, making those products is not going to impact any manufacturing in Indonesia. Name one product that Apple makes, that is also made in Indonesia. Indonesia is trying to extort Apple for money. Apple should just say no and pull out completely. Let Indonesia make their own cell phones, tablets, computers, watches. Let Indonesia show the world they are a technology powerhouse.

According to our (US) newly elected president, there will major tariffs, upwards of 100%, on Apple products, including iPhones, since we aren't building them in the US. We don't even currently have the capability.

I don't see how this is any different.

if they have competing products.

This is an absolute ridiculous take, bordering on nonsense; countries exist to protect, promote and implement domestic policy. That is the entire point of a country.

Once you cross the border into a new country, the wants, wishes, policy, rules and laws of where you're from are null and void.

 

[coffeemilktea]

Governments somehow always need more money, and I guess trying to get a piece of the increasingly-juicy Apple pie is more palatable to their citizens than raising taxes. 🙃

 

[neuropsychguy]

So you don't think that governments of countries should be allowed to promote and protect their economy and domestic businesses/jobs? Corporations should be able to override the wishes of entire countries?

Curious..

I cannot speak for everyone, but I think the issue is more with how this is being done than the fact that governments can do it (or maybe even should do it).

I'm a psychologist by training. If you want to change behavior there are at least four general approaches: positive reinforcement, positive punishment, negative reinforcement, and negative punishment. What Indonesia is essentially doing is negative punishment -- removing something desirable to decrease a behavior. What's removed? Being able to sell iPhones (or Google's Pixels -- this doesn't only apply to Apple) in Indonesia, which will make Apple money. What's the behavior to be decreased? Not having sufficient components or research activities produced or conducted in Indonesia.

Negative punishment as a behavior modification is generally associated with worse outcomes. Yes, Apple is not a person, but the principle applies. Which government do you want to work with as a company? One that offers a positive reinforcement approach (e.g., incentivizing for meeting targets) or one that punishes? Negative punishment comes across as coercion. Both negative reinforcement and negative punishment can come across as extortion.

 

[bobbie424242]

Lol at people mentioning extortion while Apple is expert at extortion with their mafia-like tactics.
It's amusing seeing them extorted and they deserve eating their own food 100%.
If I was Indonesia I'd ask 1 billion dollars for the ability to operate in Indonesia. After all, Google pays Apple 20 billions annually for the sole purpose of being the default web browser.

 

[rp2011]

lol, we're seeing an international pattern here. No one will want to be the country that doesn't milk Apple. The EU itself has countless numbers of people combing through obscure regulations of even made-up ones looking for anything they could get from Apple. That's the main driver of their economies, it seems.

 

[victorvictoria]

Well now this just becomes a calculation for Apple. How much profit does Apple stand to make from Indonesian customers over the next 10 years or so? If it's at least ten times what Indonesian politicians want in bribes, well then, pony up. If not, then play hard ball, maybe even reduce the offer once or twice. When those scumbags running things see their golden goose slipping away, they'll fold.

 

[nostradumbass]

lol, we're seeing an international pattern here. No one will want to be the country that doesn't milk Apple. The EU itself has countless numbers of people combing through obscure regulations of even made-up ones looking for anything they could get from Apple. That's the main driver of their economies, it seems.

Fine company, take money, give money to your friends for 'projects', who then give the money back to you via political donations. Good grift.

 

[I7guy]

Indonesia legitimately ruled for protectionist policies. Some companies complied, Apple didn't.
Apple proposed a deal to compensate. They did not accept it.
Apple can still decide to try and comply with those rules or leave. There's no absolute law of global capitalism being bound to no laws.

Correct apple can decide to pay up or leave. Of course it might be messy if they left. But yeah they can decide android and whatever is left over can sell their wares in Indonesia.

That is part of the ruling, not the law, of course. Law get down to a point of specificity. No surprise there since they were obviously applying the same anti-competition practices.

But way different thresholds.

 

[switz]

As pointed out earlier, there is not a huge percentage of the Indonesia population that could afford any Apple product. Those that can afford are also capable to travel and while at the Airport in Hong Kong or any other place outside of Indonesia, buy the Apple product they want. If it breaks, they just buy another one on their next trip.

An iPhone cost is probably higher than the annual income for the majority of the population.

 

[raythompsontn]

This is an absolute ridiculous take, bordering on nonsense; countries exist to protect, promote and implement domestic policy. That is the entire point of a country.

What exactly is Indonesia protecting, promoting, or otherwise implementing in any domestic policy? There is no competition in Indonesia for Apple products. Actually there is no competition for Samsung products, Sony products, Netgear products, but Indonesia is not going after Samsung or any other companies as Apple's pockets are deeper.

According to our (US) newly elected president, there will major tariffs, upwards of 100%, on Apple products

Not just on Apple products, but all products in a category. Imports from China are a tariff, imports on Apple products from China is extorting a single company. Going after a single company is extortion, Tariffs exist on a particular product category, not just a single company.

 

[Bearxor]

This is called extortion. As Darth Vader once said: "I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

Edit: My comment is a bit hyperbolic on purpose, but the Star Wars quote is accurate because the Indonesian government has the power to alter deals at will. Apple does as well with suppliers so in other situations Apple can be viewed as the Empire. I'm just focusing on the current situation between Indonesia and Apple.

In any case, I think there are better ways at growing economies than simply requiring certain businesses to locally manufacture and source products. Included with this is that there are better ways to incentivize individuals and businesses. For example -- if a business meets a certain target for local manufacturing or research or support, there can be tax or other incentives. That's a form of positive reinforcement. What the Indonesian government is doing is a form of negative punishment.

Because what you’re saying works great in theory where everyone plays by the spirit of the rules and does the right thing with best interests of everyone in mind. But in reality companies will use every ambiguous legal paragraph and possible loophole to maximize what they get while minimizing what they give.

So now we’re at punishment.

 

[Jay Tee]

Indonesian people who can actually afford iPhone will buy from overseas anyway. They may have more than 100 million people but most of them cannot afford it anyway.

Friend on mine went back for a 2 month vacation with the iphone 15 which she bought over here. Indonesian authorities wouldn't register a local SIM for her unless she paid the import duties for the phone. Luckily, she got a good international roaming deal for the duration of the vacation.

Wicked, wicked government that actually tries to enslave their people in many other ways.

Wicked !

 

[sw1tcher]

Indonesian people who can actually afford iPhone will buy from overseas anyway. They may have more than 100 million people but most of them cannot afford it anyway.

And how are they using those overseas iPhones when the IMEI isn't registered with the Indonesian govt to be used in their country?

Indonesia’s black-market phone prevention plan bricks a whole bunch of handsets

Database recording legit handsets appears to have exceeded capacity

www.theregister.com

The nation's plan was hatched in 2019 in response to the scourge of black-market handhelds imported into Indonesia by folks with little interest in paying import taxes or whether customers would enjoy good network connections. The presence of black market phones also threatened local manufacturers.

Indonesia therefore decided no cellphone could touch local networks if the unique International Mobile Equipment Identity number (IMEI) baked into every handset wasn't registered with the government. It's since established a database to list IMEIs, called the centralized equipment identity register (CEIR). If a device isn't listed in CEIR it's a virtual brick right out of the box if used in Indonesia.

 

[neuropsychguy]

Because what you’re saying works great in theory where everyone plays by the spirit of the rules and does the right thing with best interests of everyone in mind. But in reality companies will use every ambiguous legal paragraph and possible loophole to maximize what they get while minimizing what they give.

So now we’re at punishment.

Why not close the loopholes and work with the companies instead of punishing?

I can answer that. It is partially due to governments often liking quick fixes to things instead of really fixing things. Why plan for the future when you can pat yourself on the back as you get re-elected?

Increasing domestic manufacturing is one way (but not the only way!) of planning for the future, but how you get there can be important too.

 

[scorpio vega]

Samsung and xiaomi are fine with those rules and are selling smartphones in Indonesia

Translation: they have no
Backbone.

 

[WarmWinterHat]

Translation: they have no
Backbone.

Nor can they. Companies are not people and should not anthropomorphized.

 

[scorpio vega]

Nor can they. Companies are not people and should not anthropomorphized.

Companies are not ppl. Let’s not be dramatic.

but they are ran by people who are in charge of business and shouldn’t be taken advantage of by the government. Hence why a backbone is required. Or else said government will continue to try and bleed you try which then negatively affects said company which trickles down to…wait for it…the people who work for said company and us as consumers.

 

[redpandadev]

that's because they sell phones at much cheaper price than iPhone.

I was genuinely curious, so I took a look at Samsung's website. I was able to find that they list 21 (non-refurbished) models on their website. Of these 21 models, only 2 are cheaper than iPhone - the A15 (199) and A25 (299). 11 models are cheaper than iPhone 16 and 6 models are actually MORE expensive than iPhone 16 Pro Max.

Note: I only compared the full price of base models. I'm not counting upgrades, sales and promos.

 

[switz]

The operative word: corruption!

 

[jimbobb24]

This is quite literally extortion. Why should an US company building tech invest into a specific country (there are a lot of countries in the world, imagine everyone else starting to demand this).maybe just maybe, Indonesia is not producing anything they might need?

What stops other countries from doing the same.

"We are the experts of [...]! We demand you to invest in us, even if country X has more expertise in area Y!!!"

Every country will demand this and we will reach the dark ages of mercantilism and protectionism. It's going to be lit... tariffs, protectionism. What a regression as a species.

 

[jimbobb24]

Countries with no competing products should be ruled by foreign powers?
Are you a mid-19th-century Englishman?

Who said anything about ruling?

 

[I7guy]

Apple's fault for saying ok to India's demands. Now other countries saw that.

India was a good move. Indonesia?