Installing Programs

Discussion in 'Mac OS X Lion (10.7)' started by TechForAll, May 5, 2014.

  1. TechForAll macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    #1
    Ok this may seem like a dumb question but I havent used Macs much (only for design work here and there) and it seems I have a little confusion in installing programs. For some, not all, you open the I think dmg file is it, and it installs, but it seems to mount a drive for that program on the desktop, and when you quit the program, that icon disappears. When it is open, and you try dragging the mounted drive icon to the hot bar at the bottom, it doesn't take.

    Do you have to drag that ir the other app icon into the Applications folder to complete the "install" or am I missing something? Seems like a totally non-intuitive install process.
     
  2. MisterMe macrumors G4

    MisterMe

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Location:
    USA
    #2
    Actually, installing OS X applications is incredibly intuitive:
    1. .dmg—This is a disk image file. This file opens as a mounted volume on your Desktop. This is the case that you asked about. If you see the application icon within mounted volume of the .dmg file, then drag it to the Applications alias there. You may also drag it anywhere else that you like. However, you must drag it somewhere. Otherwise, the application is not installed. NOTE: The application can execute from within the .dmg mounted volume. This appears to have been what confused you. Repeat—you must drag it to a location on your hard drive.
    2. .dmg—There is a second case of a disk image file. This case contains a .pkg brown box icon. The .pkg is the Installer package file for your application. Double-click this icon to install the file.
    3. .dmg—This is the third case of a disk image file. This case contains a custom installer. Double-click on the installer file to install the application.
    4. Mac App Store—Applications downloaded from the Mac App Store install automatically.
    5. .zip—Applications distributed as compressed .zip archives may be dragged anywhere on your file system that suits your fancy.
     
  3. TechForAll thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    #3
    Thank you for the through response, very helpful in understanding. But I humbly have to disagree with you in that this is intuitive at all in the true sense of the word for someone who doesnt use Macs day in and day out... and this is coming from a computer professional who has actually used Macs years ago for graphic/web design work for 1-2 yrs.

    For example, it makes no sense why there is a "mounted volume" added to the desktop when you are in the process of "installing" the program by opening the dmg file. This is an unnecessary step. I dont see what a "mounted file" has anything to do with the programs installation from the dmg file. Maybe you can elaborate more on how this step is supposed to make the process of installation simpler than just installing it into the applications folder in the first place, and possibly just putting a shortcut on the desktop to the application that the user can simply delete or move to the bottom task bar if not needed. You cant even move/copy the mounted drive into the taskbar.

    You state that the mounted drive icon must be dragged somewhere into the hard drive. Isnt the desktop part of the hard drive? I am no expert in Mac OS file structures, but I thought the desktop was part of the hard drive as well, so again, seems like another step not needed.

    So you are saying there are THREE different install files/methods??? Or the dmg is not the install file, but the pkf file is? When I open the pkg file, does THAT automatically install into the apps folder so I can just start using the program or do I have to drag something somewhere with that process as well? BTW, to make thigns even more complicated, it seems some programs have a dmg that does the mounted drive stuff, and there were programs that didnt go through this step at all but installed in the more "normal" way like a PC would.

    Believe me I am not a PC fanboy, PC's have tons of faults as well, but compared to what we are going over here, with an "objective" mindframe, I do not see how any of this is intuitive or easy for someone who hasnt done it before, compared to a PC's process where you open the exe, follow the prompts, and after clicking finished/done/close, you dont have to do anything else but open the shortcut or the program exe provided for you right on the desktop.

    I dunno, maybe I am still missing something in the logic of this process... it is not my attempt to be argumentative, but since I have had for some reason a larger influx of Mac clients in recent times, I would like to at least thoroughly understand this procedure since I cannot explain to other how to do anything unless I understand it 100% myself.

    Thanks for your time.
     
  4. Weaselboy Moderator

    Weaselboy

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Location:
    California
    #4
    You are not missing anything. I really like my Macbook Air, but installing apps under OS X is an absolutely convoluted mess. Also, here we are in 2014 and OS X has no built in way to uninstall apps.

    To try and answer your questions...

    When you have a DMG type app, you need to open the DMG (this "mounts" the file DMG and makes it look like another drive) then drag the app itself into the /Applications folder, then eject (unmount) the DMG file and you can then delete it.

    The DMGs that contain a PKF file are auto installers more like what you see in Windows. So you open the DMG, run the PKF installer, then eject the DMG.
     
  5. MisterMe macrumors G4

    MisterMe

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Location:
    USA
    #5
    may be moved to a location on any available volume that is accessible to the file system.

    You are making this way too hard. The three different installation methods are developer options. The user deals with the method that the developer chose for his/her application. Apple would prefer that all developers used the Mac App Store, which automatically installs applications after they are downloaded.

    Things are complicated for you because you are looking for complication. Applications that can be installed by drag & drop are almost always clearly indicated by their developers. Applications that are installed using Installer are also clearly indicated. If they use a custom install file, then the word install is usually part of the name. Double-click it. Easy. If the mounted volume has a .pkg file inside, then you know to double-click it. Again, easy.

    A complex process with prompts is still a complex process. OS X eliminates the underlying complexity. With the underlying complexity eliminated, there is no need for prompts. OS X installation prompts are usually require you to agree to the licensing terms of your software. No other decisions are necessary.

    You are not running Windows. Stop looking for Windows solutions. Take the time to learn your Mac on its own terms. If you do this, then you too will become a member of that rabid group of Mac users known as "switchers."
     
  6. TechForAll thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    #6
    When u say "drag the app itself" which exact icon do you mean, the one in the download folder (I thought that was only the install app) or the drive icon on the desktop?

    And so why not make everything into PKF's? SMH

    Ans thanks for at least seeing the continuing crap that Apple does with their "user friendly" marketing yet there are so many things that are horrible and not user friendly at all, and basically its all so dumbed down that people who use them and cant do something just give up instead of finding the solution. For example, I had another client today who's Facetime "didnt work." He stated that it quits with an error every time now after about 30 seconds of using it with someone. Well I look through every imaginable preference and setting to see what could be wrong, but the only thing we are allowed to change is adding or deleting the email accounts associated with the account. I dont mind things not working, I just hate it when a company claims their systems are so flawless and better but they still break, still get "gray screens" instead of "blue screens" and still get viruses and spyware.
     
  7. TechForAll thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    #7
    Ok first you have you have to stop being so defensive about the Apple OS. I have been using computers since the Tandy, Apple IIe and every PC version since then and a couple of Macs along the way, and for the last 15 yeas as an IT professional mostly in PC. I think I have a decent perspective on what is "complicated or not." The very fact that I had to even ask about these DMG and PKF are proof that the Mac OS still has a long ways to go. I did not invent these different options, Apple did.

    I am not looking for "Windows" solutions, just a simple one. And I think you misunderstand so let me explain explicitly: (example)

    1. I went to install Avast in an infected Mac, went to avast.com or cnet, forgot which one, and clicked on the download link
    2. Apparently after it downloaded, there were no prompts whatsoever. I have many clients that I tutor, especially older people, ad I will guarantee you on my life they will 100% not know what happened to the installation process at this point, STRIKE 1.
    3. Since i have competent knowledge of computers, I click on either the downloaded file icon in the browser or I go manually into the Downloads folder and open the downloaded install file. At this point, for another program, it seems there are 2 different kinds of files, i.e., the DMG or PKF. Again as an avg or below avg user, I would have no idea whats the difference and would just double click anyways because thats all that would make sense to me. STRIKE 2
    4. Now here, when some installs end, I simply see a mounted drive icon appear on the desktop. With others, I see nothing. With the mounted, I assume I open that, so I do... it opens the program, nice. When I am done, I would like to get that off my desktop and place it on my bottom dock. As usual for this, I drag the mount icon to the dock, but it doesnt take. "I" know why not, but again, most avg users would be very frustrated with this. And I am not making this up, one of my middle-aged clients, a very smart man, was frustrated with this... "WHY CANT I just put this in the dock like the others???" STRIKE 3
    5. Now they give up on getting it in the dock. But now they desperately just want it off their desktop, so they drag it into the trash. Well who knew that essentially UNINSTALLS the program.... LMAO. I dont think I need to even further this line of thought.... STRIKE 4
    6. Having done this, I install another that is from a PKF. This one places no icon on the desktop. It simply installs in the to Apps folder. Well most people dont have their Apps folders open all the time to see that pop up, so now they might have to guess, what happened... did it install? How do I open it? Then I have to show them they have to go the Apps folder and open it from there... but then they say thats too many steps, cant they just have it in the dock. Then I show them they can drag from there to the dock. Problem solved but this only works for the PKF and is anything but intuitive considering it is not consistent with the way the DMG works. STRIKE 5.

    And you talk about the developers "clearly" indicating where things were to be dragged/dropped/installed? I am not sure what programs you were installing but I was dealing with about 4 different common Adobe softwares, Avast, AVG and a couple of anti-spyware programs and a couple of system utilities like Teamviewer (which BTW wouldnt let me install because it was the wrong OS version, LMAO.... wont even let me install an older one), and NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM had ANY type of "instruction" on drag/drop or whatever, so I am totally lost on what you are referring to here.

    This will be a fruitless argument if you think needing to decipher between a DMG and PKF and then appropriately dragging specific icons to various locations that need to be opened to finally "install" is simpler than clicking "OK/Next" 3-4 times. I cannot debate with anyone who's logic is based on this.

    Now for you, someone who has used Macs in such ways where you have gone through all this many many times, any avg human would find that "easy" after so many reps. But as a computer tutor, I dont have the luxury of using someone like you as a baseline. This is REAL WORLD facts and experience, and it is not my concern that you love Macs over PC's or whatever, this is not about that. It is about Mac's claim that everything is "so easy on the Mac and my experience in teaching people about the most basic things on the Mac is anything but, and they have pages of notes just to install a program, much like this thread.

    So again, I appreciate your help, u were very thorough in your explanations, but you may want to step back and see this from the commoner's point of view of users out there who think this is anything but an "intuitive process." The users couldnt care less what a developer wanted to do... they just want to install a freakin program and use it from their dock! The worst attitude is that Apple is so perfect and great, its the people who use it that are too dumb or they should learn our ways. This has been their prevalent way of thinking and the base for all their marketing, but most tech savvy people know how crappy Apple products really are in their limitations, and Samsung is finally bring that to the forefront in their recent commercials. and thus you see the drop in % sales between Apple and the Android/PC products. Are these the "switchers" u r referring to? Because in the last 10 years, I have known about 1 switcher from PC/Android to Mac/Apple for every 10 the other way.

    I had a similar argument with many Apple fanboys about the mouse cursor accelerator, and it was amazing how many of them tried to convince a ton of us who were having the same problem that it was a problem with US, the user, not the fact that Apple has a perfect accelerator installed in their mouse drivers... actually no, they even refused to admit there was any accelerator, they tried to claim that the PC drivers had the accelerator that was "wrong" and Apple's is how it should be. So forgive me if I have lost total respect for the way Apple fanboys explain how there is nothing wrong with Apple products.
     
  8. MisterMe macrumors G4

    MisterMe

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2002
    Location:
    USA
    #8
    First. Please don't talk about your vast experience with computers. It is unbecoming.

    Second. Who told you that your Mac is infected? There are no OS X viruses in the wild and never have been any. There were 26 Macintosh viruses that mostly affected System 6 and System 7, but could possibly affect the classic MacOS up through MacOS 9.2.3. Those have no effect at all on Intel-based Macs. Legitimate Mac antivirus software can disinfect those old Mac viruses. However, the primary use of Mac antivirus software is to disinfect Windows malware in files that you receive from Windows users.

    Many Mac users feel that it is not their responsibility to disinfect Windows files. This is a sentiment that I understand and respect, but it also one that I disagree with. As a Mac user who works in a primarily Windows shop, my work is adversely affected by IT's measures taken to combat malware. If they perceive viruses to be less of a threat, then my life is easier.

    There are earlier posts on this forum too numerous to count about the efficacy of antivirus software on the Mac. Search those posts if you don't want to accept my word for it.

    In my last post, I urged you to learn the Mac on its own terms. I have told you what you need to do. Rather than writing page-long screeds about why the Mac is so difficult, you will be better served by chilling, and then giving yourself time to learn.

    I will not waste my time trying to respond to every issue in your screed. I will say this about uninstalling applications. To uninstall a Mac application, drag it to the Trash and then empty the Trash. The few applications that cannot be uninstalled this way ship with uninstaller utilities.
     
  9. Weaselboy Moderator

    Weaselboy

    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2005
    Location:
    California
    #9
    Let me show you a couple examples. All three of these started as a DMG that I double clicked.

    This one is a PKG installer that you would just double click to install, then eject the DMG after.

    [​IMG]

    Another PKG installer, but the dev put a nice graphic in there telling you to run the installer. Again, eject the DMG after.

    [​IMG]

    Here is one where you get the app itself sitting there inside the DMG. So to install this type you would manually drag the Onyx app into the /Applications folder, then eject the DMG. When I say "app itself" it is because that Onyx X graphic you see in the middle is the actual application, and not an installer. You could even run the app from inside the open DMG if you wanted. At least here the dev. gives you that tip in a DMG graphic. There are many DMG installers where you open the DMG and the app is just there in a white background and users have no idea what to do.

    [​IMG]

    Good question.
     
  10. TechForAll thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    #10
    I guess I apologize for your being offended at my attempt to establish a baseline that inexperienced Mac users from elderly newbies to lifetime computer professionals find many processes in the Mac "not intuitive." However, it is now clear why you are confused about this issue. Somehow it seems your definition of "intuitive" and "learning" are different from mine, and from that of most dictionaries and grammatical sources... as illustrated by your own comments in this thread:

    Code:
    Actually, installing OS X applications is [B]incredibly intuitive[/B]:
    Code:
    [B]Take the time to learn[/B] your Mac on its own terms.
    Thus, you have stated that something that is "incredibly" intuitive requires me to take time and learn to execute. That's like saying in order for my shirt to be blue, it has to be red.

    P.S. Sorry I have to lengthen this to answer you... no one had to tell me it was infected LOL... it was my client's and it WAS infected. Since you dont seem to be a computer/IT professional from the way you sound in your responses, allow me to inform you that people like me can see and "feel" a virus or malware in a PC without even hard evidence. However, if that is somehow not good enough for you, the eventual scan I did pick up more than 1 malware, much more. So again, you are one of those people who are adamantly denying that macs can get malware? LOL... you do know it is May of 2014 right?

    Again I thank you for your help, you did explain every well what the issue was here. But I suggest you drop this cult-like defensive attitude of diehard Mac users, which I still have yet to understand the reasoning... this isnt the first time and I am sure it wont be the last, but you are really giving scientology people a run for their money.
     
  11. TechForAll thread starter macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2011
    #11
    LMAO... its worse than I even thought. now that I know this, its fine. I remember I played the original Civilization game on the Mac Classic, sigh, and that was just like the Onyx, a self-running/fully contained executable that I could place anywhere and run it. I always thought that was so cool over my roommate's 286 PC which needed to install a bunch of files, but I still played it on the 286 because it ran so much faster and thus ruined my college academic career. Now THAT was intuitive.

    I just had a client who has been using Macs for 5+ years. Do you know that if I told her to drag the icon to the Utilities folder in her hard disk to "install it," then make a shortcut for it on her desktop or dock, or just run it from the Utilities folder itself, she would just look at me as if I were crazy? LMAO... she hardly knew what her finder app looked like... I mean she had seen it before, but that would not have helped her find the Apps or Utilities folder. In fact, she took a full page of notes when I taught her how to use the Finder for various file management tasks. If I told her "Oh cmon, this is incredibly intuitive!" I guarantee she would have thought I were a crass prick insulting her intelligence... and she is not a dumb by any means, more like above average IQ. She picked things up very quickly after I taught her some, even scanning and saving and emailing them as attachments, which is definitely not intuitive either. NOW imagine my trying to explain the different installation file type and how to handle each... in fact, I wouldnt even try... been there before, these people would much rather just have me do it than go through that hell... because, well, it is hell.

    Thanks for your help!
     

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