Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
nightshift said:
The Cell chip and Apple PowerPC chips have about as much in common as the Power chips (used in IBM servers) and Apple's version of them. They may have similiar origins, they may have similiar features, but they aren't going to be used in place of one another.

I don't understand why anyone thinks that Cell is going to be used anywhere else. Was the Emotion Engine used anywhere else? Cell has a niche use. It is not designed for general process computing. Mind you, Cell is very very good at what it does, but that doesn't mean that Apple is going to adopt it for their main processors. Maybe as an addon board aimed at professionals, but hardly as one suitable for the consumer.

Although true that it is derived from a server chip (so was the current G5 by the way) according to IBM themselves the chip has been designed with all kinds of devices in mind "Incorporating this architecture, chips will be developed for everything from handheld devices to mainframe computers."

http://www-1.ibm.com/businesscenter...featurearticle/gcl_xmlid/8649/nav_id/emerging
 
Costs of Intel vs. PPC chips

To everyone asking about the cost per processor for those produced by Intel vs. IBM, or those saying that the Intel chip would be cheaper, read "Ziff Davis Internet News Editor David Morgenstern's" take on things (accompanies the eWeek article). The PPC's are apparently considerably cheaper, so a move to Intel chips may actually raise the price of a Mac.

Direct link to opinion piece (quote is from second page):
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1824110,00.asp

====================
Here are a few hard facts about the PowerPC vs. Intel case to consider:

# Apple pays less for its PowerPC processors than the cost of comparable Intel chips, and analysts say the cost is less than half as much for some models. Moving to Intel would hit Apple's bottom line.

# The PowerPC G5 is a smaller, more efficient chip than the competition. The G5 has performance comparable to any current x86 chip, which is really all that's necessary to persuade Mac fans to stay with the platform. Mac OS X trumps Windows any time, and all that's needed is a machine that can hold its own against Wintel machines, not necessarily beat them.
 
nightshift said:
Clean move to 64 bit? The PowerPC architecture is a LOT cleaner than x86 in regards to 64-bit computing. x86 is a patchwork that gets uglier with every new improvement. Ask any Intel or AMD engineer and more than likely they will be in agreement. There's a reason that Intel wanted to move away from their bread and butter. x86 is good because there are so many resources dedicated to improving it from the engineers to the compilers, but it is hardly a clean solution.

64-bit computing is also overrated. Most applications for the consumer do not require it. The only reason that (64-bit recompiled) programs may benefit is the availability of more registers.

I'm no hardware engineer so can't comment re: your first note.

As to your second comment, sure consumer apps don't need 64 bit now, who knows what we'll need tomorrow.

I stopped being a fan of the PPC when it didn't hit 3.0Ghz and I didn't get my G5 laptop.


Cheers,
T
 
MacPhreak said:
To everyone asking about the cost per processor for those produced by Intel vs. IBM, or those saying that the Intel chip would be cheaper, read "Ziff Davis Internet News Editor David Morgenstern's" take on things (accompanies the eWeek article). The PPC's are apparently considerably cheaper, so a move to Intel chips may actually raise the price of a Mac.

Direct link to opinion piece (quote is from second page):
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1824110,00.asp

====================
Here are a few hard facts about the PowerPC vs. Intel case to consider:

# Apple pays less for its PowerPC processors than the cost of comparable Intel chips, and analysts say the cost is less than half as much for some models. Moving to Intel would hit Apple's bottom line.

# The PowerPC G5 is a smaller, more efficient chip than the competition. The G5 has performance comparable to any current x86 chip, which is really all that's necessary to persuade Mac fans to stay with the platform. Mac OS X trumps Windows any time, and all that's needed is a machine that can hold its own against Wintel machines, not necessarily beat them.

Yep, i saw that too, quite interesting. I guess i was wrong in an earlier statement!
 
nightshift said:
Cell has a niche use. It is not designed for general process computing.
Yes, it is, among other things:
With the capability to support multiple operating systems, Cell can perform both PC/WS operating systems as well as real-time CE/Game operating systems at the same time. Scalability offered by Cell can be utilized for broader applications, from small digital CE systems within the home to other entertainment applications for rendering movies, and to the big science applications as supercomputers.
 
asanchezm said:
MAC comunity say hello to viruses, viruses say hello to the mac comunity.....
Huh?
1) What does MAC have to do with this?
2) CPUs don't get "viruses" software gets "viruses". In fact if anything current Intel/AMD chips have additional features that can help software prevent software viruses from exploiting some types of vulnerabilities.
 
nightshift said:
x86 is a patchwork that gets uglier with every new improvement
Ugh, that sounds just like Windows. I thought it was interesting though, that lately the PowerPC was getting so much press and Intel was looking like they were finally getting left in the dust. Now it seems that this might not be the case. Let's just hope Steve takes us down the right road. He's done it so far. Bringing NeXTSTEP to Apple and turning it into OS X is a dream come true (for me). I can't believe that he would jeopardize his kick ass OS with a patchwork processor. Tomorrow can't come soon enough :eek:
 
MacWhispers said:
Personally, I want one of those Voodoo Eden air-cooled dual Opteron towers with OS X running natively. From a profitability standpoint, that hypothetical sale of one copy of Tiger would earn Apple about the same as if I bought a Mac mini, or an entry level iBook or eMac.

The hypothetical sale would only be profitable if they raised their prices. The support costs would damage Apple more in the long run if OS X were supported on any x86 hardware which is what you are suggesting with Opteron processors (assuming that Apple is moving solely to Intel x86 processors for now). If consumers are allowed to run OS X on whatever they want, they will, and they'll also send many complaints to Apple along the way when their hardware does not work correctly. Apple currently does not have the influence to make all the hardware manufacturers write drivers for them.

I want Apple to compete more with Microsoft since they have a great OS, but the whole Apple experience is based on them controlling everything from their hardware, software, to even the packaging experience.
 
QuickTransit

Transitive Technologies not only offers QuickTransit software for PPC-on-x86
emulation, but for x86-on-PPC emulation as well:

http://www.quicktransit.com/products.htm

So if Apple does switch to x86, I would think it would incorporate
QuickTransit in both the PPC and x86 versions of Mac OS X.

The x86 Mac OS X apps could run unmodified on PPC Macs, and the PPC
Mac OS X apps could run unmodified on x86 Macs. And Apple wouldn't
totally cannibalize its existing PPC Mac hardware sales.

Everyone is happy - consumers, developers, third-party vendors, etc.

Of course, it's still possible that Apple simply enlisted Intel to supply PPC
processors. We'll just have to wait and see.
 
MacPhreak said:
To everyone asking about the cost per processor for those produced by Intel vs. IBM, or those saying that the Intel chip would be cheaper, read "Ziff Davis Internet News Editor David Morgenstern's" take on things (accompanies the eWeek article). The PPC's are apparently considerably cheaper, so a move to Intel chips may actually raise the price of a Mac.

Direct link to opinion piece (quote is from second page):
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1824110,00.asp

====================
Here are a few hard facts about the PowerPC vs. Intel case to consider:

# Apple pays less for its PowerPC processors than the cost of comparable Intel chips, and analysts say the cost is less than half as much for some models. Moving to Intel would hit Apple's bottom line.

# The PowerPC G5 is a smaller, more efficient chip than the competition. The G5 has performance comparable to any current x86 chip, which is really all that's necessary to persuade Mac fans to stay with the platform. Mac OS X trumps Windows any time, and all that's needed is a machine that can hold its own against Wintel machines, not necessarily beat them.

I read the article.

1) doesn't list which chips are the comparable chips.
2) doesn't take into account any deals that Jobs could extract from Intel.
3) fails to note that it's not today's comparative performance that is the issue, it's tomorrows. Jobs wouldn't move if he didn't believe that IBM et. al. had run into a wall.
4) fails to note that while comparative performance is fine right now for the desktop, it is begining to suck for the laptop.


lastly, I have a hard time believing #1. Intel has a huge competitive advantage over IBM/FS in terms of the cost-per-unit, since they spit out so many friggin chips.
 
Speculate, speculate, speculate... I'm just as confused as everyone else. I guess we'll find out tomorrow at 10AM.

On the one hand, a Powerbook w/ a Pentium M 2 ghz sounds a lot better than a G4 in there, but the whole recompilation for x86 sounds pretty crazy...
 
MacWhispers said:
Folks, I think a ton of you just aren't getting the major possibility here. This is Apple's chance to deal its first substantial blow to the Microsoft/Windows hegemony since sliding into second place 20-years ago.

Personally, I want one of those Voodoo Eden air-cooled dual Opteron towers with OS X running natively. From a profitability standpoint, that hypothetical sale of one copy of Tiger would earn Apple about the same as if I bought a Mac mini, or an entry level iBook or eMac.

I think you're right on, except I don't see OSX being opened up for anyone to install it on a computer (given it fits Apple's requirements, which are very strict).

No, I think if they ever go beyond just Mac-branded computers, it will be with one or two other manufacturers who apple can control which computers OSX is installed on.

Heresy, you say?

There is, after all, an HP-branded iPod. Why not HPs running OSX? The relationship is already there. And for people upgrading from an HP, the built-in "Apple Fear" that the lay-consumer has won't apply.

Apple, HP and maybe one other would be a huge force in the industry - combined user bases, marketing, etc. But as for opening up OSX for the hundreds of different manufacturers, I don't think Apple wants to go that route and deal with the compatibility problems that plague windows (though I could be wrong in how OSX deals with these issues).

Oh yeah, let us not forget Jobs saying he was being courted by other hardware manufacturers because they wanted a sexy OS with virus immunity. They know what's up.
 
shawnce said:
CPUs don't get "viruses" software gets "viruses".
Yes, but it helps the malicious code when the hardware actually runs it, no questions asked (metaphorically to the system or literally to the computers user)... :rolleyes:
 
PowerMac22 said:
The x86 Mac OS X apps could run unmodified on PPC Macs, and the PPC Mac OS X apps could run unmodified on x86 Macs. And Apple wouldn't totally cannibalize its existing PPC Mac hardware sales. Everyone is happy - consumers, developers, third-party vendors, etc.
I would not be happy knowing that my applications were taking a performance hit just so I could have the latest hardware from Apple. No translation or emulation for me thanks :cool:
 
Deestar said:
Although true that it is derived from a server chip (so was the current G5 by the way) according to IBM themselves the chip has been designed with all kinds of devices in mind "Incorporating this architecture, chips will be developed for everything from handheld devices to mainframe computers."

http://www-1.ibm.com/businesscenter...featurearticle/gcl_xmlid/8649/nav_id/emerging

Yes, but according to Intel, Itanium was suppose to usher in a new wave of unprecedented computing and, according to Sony, the Emotion Engine (really just a MIPS processor and 2 VPUs) was suppose to replace chips in a variety of dedicated devices. Did either one of those company PR promises come true? I like the PowerPC architecture and I think it would be great if more computing devices used it, but don't believe what the PR people say.
 
MacWhispers said:
Folks, I think a ton of you just aren't getting the major possibility here. This is Apple's chance to deal its first substantial blow to the Microsoft/Windows hegemony since sliding into second place 20-years ago.

MS chose to not build a modern, clean-slate OS, and, is hemstrapping Longhorn with all of the dead weight required to maintain backwards compatibility with four or more generations of prior Windows releases. They made the business decision to not make a clean break at this time.

Tiger is already everything a clean-break "Longhorn" should have been. And, if Apple simply specifies a minimum system configuration on which the new "Intel" Tiger will run, it limits the overhead on the company of supporting a bazillion antique drivers and APIs. And, it puts Tiger up there as a surprise, solid alternative to Windows for new hardware buyers.

Apple will not attempt to support parallel ports, floppy drives, serial ports, etc. with this move. It will start from the same hardware assumptions that now underpin the current Mac lineup, and will require a certain base Intel hardware configuration in order to run the revised Tiger.

Is any of this work needed on Tiger (or major apps) trivial? No. But, if Apple's been developing toward this transition for some extended period of time, my guess is that all of the iffy parts have long since been worked out.

Personally, I want one of those Voodoo Eden air-cooled dual Opteron towers with OS X running natively. From a profitability standpoint, that hypothetical sale of one copy of Tiger would earn Apple about the same as if I bought a Mac mini, or an entry level iBook or eMac.

Nothing Apple can do will result in a sudden, large migration of corporate desktops to OS X. But, the consumer, small office, education, and (don't forget) the enterprise spaces are not as tied to Microsoft. Huge sales gains can be had in these spaces with an x86 compatible OS X.
Like David and Goliath...huh?
The problem is that in this ugly world David always gets his ass kicked by Goliath...
I really hope I am just a cynical gitt...
 
All these sites and their 'experts' chiming in, contradicting what the other said, thousands of responses on forums... my head is about to explode!
 
nightshift said:
The Cell chip and Apple PowerPC chips have about as much in common as the Power chips (used in IBM servers) and Apple's version of them. They may have similiar origins, they may have similiar features, but they aren't going to be used in place of one another.

I don't understand why anyone thinks that Cell is going to be used anywhere else. Was the Emotion Engine used anywhere else? Cell has a niche use. It is not designed for general process computing. Mind you, Cell is very very good at what it does, but that doesn't mean that Apple is going to adopt it for their main processors. Maybe as an addon board aimed at professionals, but hardly as one suitable for the consumer.

I think most everyone knows that (or at least a lot of people).

The real question is: can Cell be added (even externally) to a generic PowerPC chip to equal the custom PPC+Altivec chip that Apple wants? Sort of like how Amiga had external co-processors.
 
tdewey said:
I read the article.

1) doesn't list which chips are the comparable chips.
2) doesn't take into account any deals that Jobs could extract from Intel.
3) fails to note that it's not today's comparative performance that is the issue, it's tomorrows. Jobs wouldn't move if he didn't believe that IBM et. al. had run into a wall.
4) fails to note that while comparative performance is fine right now for the desktop, it is begining to suck for the laptop.


lastly, I have a hard time believing #1. Intel has a huge competitive advantage over IBM/FS in terms of the cost-per-unit, since they spit out so many friggin chips.

#2 - The price per chip would most likely be higher than what Dell, HP, Sony, etc, would pay, since Apple would account for such a tiny portion of their sales. Dell would have a hissy if Apple got a lower price.

#3 - x86 has run into a wall, as well, as has been mentioned here several times.

And your last comment-- If my memory serves, there are considerably less transistors in a G5 than in a P4, something like 50 million vs. 200 million, which is one of the reasons the G5 is (supposedly) cheaper to manufacture.
 
Mitthrawnuruodo said:
Yes, but it helps the malicious code when the hardware actually runs it, no questions asked (metaphorically to the system and literally to the computers user)... :rolleyes:
Yes it is true the vast majority of "viruses" in the world are compiled to x86 instructions but they also depend on Windows operating system to exist with specific functions, etc. in well know memory locations (talking about buffer overrun exploits for example).

If using Mac OS X on x86 those things wouldn't exist at all or in the locations that x86 "viruses" expect, they wouldn't work. In other words Mac OS X wouldn't magically gain exposure to viruses simply because they use a CPU that can execute instructions that most viruses are compiled to.
 
While this information appears convincing, the question arises how does Apple retain its revenue stream during the transition - if we are to believe that the first Intel based Macs appear during 2006 and the rest in 2007? As well as not wanting to purchase deprecated hardware, purchasers would be worried that Apple could even survive the transition.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.