capamac
macrumors 6502a
'course, Panther Lake ain't the end of it: https://www.neowin.net/news/intels-leaked-nova-lake-s-cpu-could-make-budget-graphics-cards-obsolete/
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Intel launches Macbook Neo killer
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Intel Core 3. is not Panther Lake; it is Wildcat Lake. Intel Core 3 Ultra is "Panther Lake". Take out the 'Ultra" and get completely different package set up. Wildcat. CPU-GPU on one chiplet/tile. Panther Lake. CPU and GPU on separate Tiles. The I/O tiles are very substantively different also. Wildcat Lake has zero 'regular' E-Cores (Just 4 LP-E Cores).
Wildcat Lake is probably less expansive to make, but that comes through some substantive compromises. While relatively less expensive than Panther Lake, it is likely no where near the costs to a make a A18 Pro. Wildcat Lake will have problems competing with a M5 on costs, let alone one of the A-series (which is cheaper).
This chip isn't a "Neo killer". It really isn't even competiting with the A-Pro series. It is a bit between a A-Pro and a plain M-series package.
With respect to standard 2026 laptop I/O expectations it is better than tha A18 Pro. But just simple day-to-day pure wireless laptop where budget cap matters, I don't think Apple is quaking in their boots.
Skwoodge
macrumors member
I got one of my customers to get a Neo when their PC recently died. I showed them how MacBook lids just open with one finger instead of it bringing the whole laptop off the surface and dropping back down. Also the trackpad ... they said "OH MY GOSH THE MOUSE GOES WHERE I WANT!" 😅
Krakenmare
macrumors member
big fat pass, unless you can hackintosh it, who wants to run crappy Windows
latest useful notification i got on a windows machine:
'we've noticed you have a printer installed you havent used for a while, do you want to uninstall it?'
who comes up with this idiotic stuff,
latest useful notification i got on a windows machine:
'we've noticed you have a printer installed you havent used for a while, do you want to uninstall it?'
who comes up with this idiotic stuff,
Basic75
macrumors 68030
That's not what @BSDnostalgia was referring to. Back in the 90s you could get Windows NT on a DEC Alpha and some other processors.
Side note, the PowerMac G5 was not the world's first 64bit personal computer, there were Alpha based machines that predate it by a decade.
Populus
macrumors 604
Let’s hope that, whenever Apple launches the next Neo, the NAND crisis doesn’t make them cut even more corners.
jido
macrumors 6502
And my post was stating my personal experience with the difference versions of Windows Embedded on non X86 machines.
I even had a Windows 7 phone and it actually worked well. But Microsoft decided to drop Windows Phone and never updated things.
chrono1081
macrumors G3
Just like all the other Apple Device "killers" that never actually killed anything?
I forgot how bad windows laptops touchpads are until using a coworkers recently. Holy crap they're bad.
I forgot how bad windows laptops touchpads are until using a coworkers recently. Holy crap they're bad.
You mean catch up to what AMD has already been doing? ('Strix Halo' Max AI 3xx and follow ons).
https://gizmodo.com/amd-ai-max-plus-388-and-ryzen-ai-max-plus-392-cpu-specs-leak-2000681922
Nova lake with a 12 Xe core GPU chiplet versus Wildcat Lake with a 2 Xe core GPU subsystem is about an order of magnitude gap in core count.
Again... for the context of this thread ( competitor to Neo) the follow on to Pather Lake is also not in same class as Wildcat Lake or Neo ( plain Mac Mini) in terms of costs or performance. It is a substantively different category.
[ Older CPUs paired with newer budget GPUs won't go 'obsolete'. It is more so 'uncompetitive' for newer system placements which means the unit volumes will drop substantially. It is going to be confined to a narrow subclass of desktops and practically disappear from laptops. Laptops are the major driver of unit volume.
Intel is using chlplets though. If they wanted to put in the effort, it wouldn't be hard for Intel to attach the 12 Xe core chiplet to a 'card' I/O hub and make a card. It just won't sell in high volumes. ]
Skwoodge
macrumors member
And for whatever reason, they've never gotten better. 😕
capamac
macrumors 6502a
I've read the Thinkpad X1 Carbon has a glass trackpad like the MacBooks. Haven't tried one.
The new Framework Laptop 13 Pro has a haptic trackpad; dunno if it's glass or what.
So I suspect PCs with good trackpads are out there ... somewhere ...
A major part is the whole 'race to the bottom' mentality. Most large vendors will have 2-3 low end laptops all trying to play almost exactly the same role. Because of very high product fratricide coupled to low product differentiation with competitors, the margins are thin. Thin margins creates temptations for cheaper part vendors. Rinse and repeat.
The MacBook Air has been one of (if not the highest) volume selling laptop in its class. In aggregate more Windows PCs are sold in its class but those are spread over a wide range of parts vendors. Apple buys from 1-2 parts vendors per component. The squeeze the supplier on price because the 'guaranteed' volume is relatively higher. (Apple doesn't assume all the risk though. The 'guarantee' is more on Apple's historical track record of selling in previous years.)
If move to higher average priced Windows laptops the trackpads tend to get better. Which again if steeped in offering 'maximum' laptop offerings can be spun as a 'feature' to get folks to spend more to get more quality. Windows has a trackpad certification program
Windows Precision Touchpad Industrial Design Guide (touchpad-industrial-design-guide)
This topic provides industrial design guidance for Windows Precision Touchpads.
learn.microsoft.com
It isn't required though. And even parts of the standard are optional.
The one upside with Apple's notion of only looking at being a 'better Mac' (ignoring to a large part what is going on in Windows market) is that they just walk away from trying to sell everything to everybody. There are also a large number of companies that design (and build) laptops for other folks and just slap different logos on them. That whole marketplace also is chasing selling "everything to everybody". If larger companies didn't need to product 10 laptops models then they might not need to outsource some of that work. There is always the threat of some "I will doing it cheaper than all of them" vendor who will pop up if 'draw a line in the sand' border of where put the quality cut-off at.
Intel's new Core Series 3 is its answer to the MacBook Neo
Intel has launched the Core Series 3, a mobile processor arguably designed to provide cheaper consumer laptops. But early pricing from a Chinese vendor, Honor, doesn't look especially promising.www.pcworld.com
Now that laptops and benchmarks are starting to trickle out. An 'Apples to Apples' comparison would be one of these WildCat systems locked into. 11-12W fanless mode to record the benchmarks. That would be closer to comparing the inherently fanless Neo.
What likely going to see is that most of these laptops to have fans. Hence, not really even close to being Neo 'killers' at all.
Skwoodge
macrumors member
I agree that fragmentation and a race to the bottom (lol) is a large part of it. And I've owned 3-4k gaming laptops and the trackpads are certainly significantly better, but they're still not on par with Apple's offerings, including this new "entry" laptop from Apple. People in here are just focusing on the mobile chip, but Apple is doing so many things with this laptop that simply aren't available in similarly priced offerings such as the build quality ... literally unmatched in this price range ... the bright 100% color accurate high resolution screen, the trackpad, the speakers that sound better than they have any right to, and the biggest one is the insane battery life. People are also weirdly moaning about the 1,700 MB/sec SSD when many laptops in this range are still using 100-150 MB/sec hard drives (or 500 MB/sec SSDs). And these laptops are only going to get faster and they're going to push Apple to put more RAM in their phones for the sake of the Neo.A major part is the whole 'race to the bottom' mentality. Most large vendors will have 2-3 low end laptops all trying to play almost exactly the same role. Because of very high product fratricide coupled to low product differentiation with competitors, the margins are thin. Thin margins creates temptations for cheaper part vendors. Rinse and repeat.
The MacBook Air has been one of (if not the highest) volume selling laptop in its class. In aggregate more Windows PCs are sold in its class but those are spread over a wide range of parts vendors. Apple buys from 1-2 parts vendors per component. The squeeze the supplier on price because the 'guaranteed' volume is relatively higher. (Apple doesn't assume all the risk though. The 'guarantee' is more on Apple's historical track record of selling in previous years.)
If move to higher average priced Windows laptops the trackpads tend to get better. Which again if steeped in offering 'maximum' laptop offerings can be spun as a 'feature' to get folks to spend more to get more quality. Windows has a trackpad certification program
Windows Precision Touchpad Industrial Design Guide (touchpad-industrial-design-guide)
This topic provides industrial design guidance for Windows Precision Touchpads.learn.microsoft.com
It isn't required though. And even parts of the standard are optional.
The one upside with Apple's notion of only looking at being a 'better Mac' (ignoring to a large part what is going on in Windows market) is that they just walk away from trying to sell everything to everybody. There are also a large number of companies that design (and build) laptops for other folks and just slap different logos on them. That whole marketplace also is chasing selling "everything to everybody". If larger companies didn't need to product 10 laptops models then they might not need to outsource some of that work. There is always the threat of some "I will doing it cheaper than all of them" vendor who will pop up if 'draw a line in the sand' border of where put the quality cut-off at.
The feeling of using most Windows trackpads does compel one to stab oneself in the eye with a rusty spoon.
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IvyKing
macrumors 6502a
That's putting it mildly. One thing I can't stand is how the faintest touch is interpreted to be a click - trying to use a windows trackpad in any kind moving vehicle is an exercise in frustration.
I think those HDD systems are from a couple of years ago. Chromebooks below this price range never did have HDDs. A quick filter at BestBuy for $249-749 range isn't showing many non-Chromebook models with HDD.
The NAND pricing increases may seriously perturb that , but Windows 11 ( like the current macOS ) is definitely NOT designed to run reasonably well on a HDD. Any system that has been designed from scratch to be Win 11 compliant should have be tarteging a SSD boot drive. Prior to prices going 'crazy' NAND $/GB had reached levels that made placement in $400-700 laptops easy to do. Everyone doesn't charge Apple's $/GB prices.
Now you will find eMMC SSDs at this (and entry Chromebook level). For example,
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/models/surface-laptop-go-1st-gen-specs-and-features
default storage was a 64GB eMMC module. And that was back in Win 10 days. ( HDDs were all that great with Win10 also ... start an OS upgrade and might as well go off to get a meal or something long like that. It would be grinding for a long time. ).
Similar thing with limited size mini-PCs. Will see two M.2 slots as least as much as might see a 2.5" ability. Intel NUC for the last several years before Intel let that go to ASUS was primarily designed around SSDs.
this article talks about HDD being 'hot' but that is all enterprise placement. Desktop/Laptop growth is less than 2%.
" ...
- Notebook: up 1.4 percent
- Desktop: up 1.4 percent
https://www.blocksandfiles.com/cont...ut-to-2030-forecast-to-rocket-upwards/1610577.
that as about as indicative of broken/upgrade drive placement as new systems growth. ( large user base of older devices which are going to die. And the potential for damage in laptops is higher; naive user walking around while disk is spun up and accessing. ) The enterprise stuff is double digits... which is far more likely to have "new systems" there.
P.S. Acer has some UFS storage models for their bottom end. ( basically 'even cheaper' and slower SSDs have been the 'go to' option).
Laptops | Acer Store – US
When shopping for laptops there are so many choices. From everyday multi tasking to everyday gaming - Acer has you covered. Check us out now.
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Krakenmare
macrumors member
i dont think you understand,
99% of windows notifications are just useless annoying crap,
why doesnt it ask to remove Onedrive since youve never used it, probably have more of an impact on performance lol
Hastings101
macrumors 68020
Will always hate them for that too, Microsoft couldn't market it to save their life. Windows Phone was so ahead of its time with the slick UI and the "flat" look that everyone couldn't stop copying for years. And it was fast even on some of the weakest hardware.
I liked my Windows 7 phone which was a Samsung. It worked well even in my rural area where cell service can be spotty no matter which carrier it is. I still have it in a drawer.
I switched to Android after that and every phone seemed to crash right at the two year mark - when it was time to upgrade. I then switched to an iPhone 6 and have been using iPhones ever since.
It will be interesting to see what Intel and the PC manufacturers come up with. But I can't see laptop they come out with as being a Neo killer, let alone a Mac killer.
As others have said, competition is good for the market and consumers.
IvyKing
macrumors 6502a
My iPhone 6 lasted 8 1/2 years - the original battery finally gave up. Replaced it with an SE just about three years ago, the battery health claims it still has 90% of original capacity. No plans on replacing the SE before Apple drops software updates for it.
BSDnostalgia
macrumors 6502a
This is hilarious. Apple must be ROFL reading this article. Because, it is showing an Intel "reference design" showing how perfectly Apple hit the spot with the Neo. Describing future models from various manufacturers intended to be Neo-killers.
Now, if only they could convince Apple to allow MacOS to run on these systems like the PPC license deal back in the 90's.