Intel's announcing new Thunderbolt - Mac Pro upgrade coming?

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by t0mat0, May 19, 2015.

  1. t0mat0 macrumors 603

    t0mat0

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2006
    Location:
    Home
    #1
  2. MacVidCards Suspended

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2008
    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    #2
    Sloppy reporting

    "appearing on the side of all MacBooks"

    WRONGO

    Why can't tech writers do any research?

    Anyhow, let's see new TB3.
     
  3. bax2003 macrumors 6502a

    bax2003

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Location:
    Belgrade, Serbia
    #3
    I am expecting Mac Pro 7.1 in Q4 2015 or Q1 2016.
     
  4. fuchsdh macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2014
    #4
    He did his research about that (he mentions the new Macbook)—he just constructed a sentence that on the face of it, repudiates itself.

    This bit is the real gem though: "The technology allows for data transfer speeds faster than USB, with Thunderbolt version 2.0 offering up to 20Mbps as compared to USB 3.1's 10Mbps."]

    Also supremely unhelpful to not give us a date and make us search for when Computex is.
     
  5. MacVidCards Suspended

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2008
    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
  6. Fearless Leader, May 20, 2015
    Last edited: May 20, 2015

    Fearless Leader macrumors 68020

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Location:
    Hoosiertown
    #6
    We'll need the skylake xeons (v5) to do thunderbolt 3, that's early 2016. Display port 1.3 is ready though, maybe apple can do something clever. (Replace the hdmi port, autoswitch between TB and mDP)

    And TB3 is going to have a new connector about the height of usb type-c.

    Oh, but google cache doesn't agree with you.. That works out to a few hours before anything in this thread. Awkward.
    Screen Shot 2015-05-20 at 4.27.08 AM.png
     
  7. MacVidCards Suspended

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2008
    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    #7
    The guy was wrong

    Not really concerned about Hoosier nonsense, spent 20 years there, know the tune. Ask Spence about being right.

    Your CPU "tighten til it works" advice was still amateur nonsense, as everyone told you.

    Try again.
     
  8. Fearless Leader, May 20, 2015
    Last edited: May 20, 2015

    Fearless Leader macrumors 68020

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2006
    Location:
    Hoosiertown
    #8
    Wrong thread buddy. And "tighten" and "adjust" are different words, try a dictionary.

    Oh, I'm actually in CA btw.

    edit: Not sure who Spence is, unless you mean the truly wonderful gov. Mike Pence. I forgot he I were epistemically linked. But I think we both left for similar reasons.
     
  9. deconstruct60, May 20, 2015
    Last edited: May 20, 2015

    deconstruct60 macrumors 604

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    #9
    Xeon E5 v4 are due in early 2016 ( The Broadwell-E are derived from the E5 baseline design )

    http://www.techpowerup.com/206536/intel-core-i7-broadwell-e-hedt-chips-arrive-in-2016.html

    http://www.fudzilla.com/news/processors/37014-broadwell-e-coming-in-q1-2016

    E5 v3 only arrived late 2014. Even prior to the 14nm process yield hiccups v5 wasn't primed to come close to 2015 (or early 2016). That is apparently even less likely so now. v5 is probably 2017 ( PCIe v4 isn't going to 'easy' and will need to validate a whole new IO support chipset to go along with v5. Neither one those is a 'fast track' in this product class. )

    The mainstream quad-core+GPU Broadwell design appears to be in the process of largely being skipped. Part of that is the log jam on the 12 month refresh cycle ( which Xeon E5 didn't have) and perhaps in part to yield issues they just can't crack with the bigger die. (Xeon E5 mostly have a different price point so slightly less sensitive to yield. )


    "need" is also likely a bit of an overstatement. TB v3 needs PCIe v3 feeds (not PCIe v2 ). Xeon E5 v4 could do two TB controllers not three.
    Xeon E5 v5 is projected to have PCIe v4 where could do some approach of "switch down" x8 v4 into three x4 v3 allocations.

    The mainstream CPU design for desktop/laptops "needs" Gen 6 (Skylake) not so much for CPU, but the updated associated chipset and DMI link to provision the increased number of PCIe v3 lanes needed for TB v3. Xeon E5 already have a larger amount.


    TB already "autoswitches" between TB and DP. That's isn't particularly new.

    DP v1.3 is ready "in the lab". There are still no GPUs with this provisioned in the field. By early 2016 probably.

    I think this Intel demo is going to show the "in the lab" Thunderbolt v3 chips. DisplayPort v1.3 isn't in all that much better "immediately deployable" shape than TB v3 at this point.

    What Apple could do is drop down to four TB v3 sockets and throw two USB Type C sockets on ( no video or fancy switching, just USB 3.0 also know as USB 3.1 Gen 1 ). The C610 chipset supports 6 USB 3.0 sockets so 6 outputs isn't hard. They could upgrade to HDMI 2.0
     
  10. deconstruct60, May 20, 2015
    Last edited: May 20, 2015

    deconstruct60 macrumors 604

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    #10
    This is highly likely going to be a TB controller product demo.... very similar to the product demo Intel did for Thunderbolt v2 back in June 2013 before TB v2 "scheduled for 2014" debut .

    http://www.anandtech.com/show/7049/intel-thunderbolt-2-everything-you-need-to-know

    That 2013 demo was not an indicator of "soon to be shipping" product.

    The Mac Pro "pre announcement" at WWDC 2013 was far more a declaration of the end of the previous Mac Pro design than "you can now buy this" announcement for the future product. I highly doubt Apple would do that again unless announcing yet another major form factor 'retirement/death'. Don't hold your breath on a canceling of this current form factor.


    No WWDC would not be. An Intel "first silicon" demo isn't not likely appropriate for a shipping product a week or two later.

    Apple isn't in the Display business anymore. There are in the docking station with integrated display business. Apple needs 5K display docking station like they need a hole in the head right now. There are few to none of their laptops that can drive it.

    Far more simpler and straightforward to update the video drivers on OS 10.11 to more robust support the 3rd party 5K display for those who have to have the two cable solution as soon as possible. (initial limited jabs in later 10.10 updates http://www.macrumors.com/2015/04/13/os-x-10-10-3-dell-5k/ ) Same way Apple rolled out 4K on Mac Pro. The could move both the existing and newer Mac Pro's forward that way.


    Apple has already done a move to bump up the volume of 5K displays they are selling .... The dropped the iMac 5K price down by $200. That will sell more 5K display panels any Mac Pro will.


    If tightly coupling the Mac Pro update to TB v3 then WWDC doesn't make any sense. If willing to decouple from TB v3 then Apple could jump Xeon E5 v3 , new GPUs, faster SSD , etc at WWDC. However, Apple hitched the 2013 model to TB v2, it wouldn't be a surprise to see them hitch the 2015-2016 model to TB v3. If TB stays on a "every two years" significant update cycle that would drag the Mac Pro into the same periodicity. Apple will jump from 'dead end' one to another on the tick-tock cycle on CPUs/chipsets. Apple picks up mature chipset (bugs worked out by other vendors) and whatever mature GPU board design they could license for customization. For the most part, very low risk R&D outlay for a high margin return.
     
  11. MacVidCards Suspended

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2008
    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    #11
    Actually, you can get the new ones for $2K whereas a few days ago the entry point was $2500.

    They de-contented it to get a $500 drop but that should really make life painful for Dell.
     
  12. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    #12
    Relative to new top end, it is a $300 drop. The 'new' base is even farther from being a medium-high end 3D graphics solution, but for 2D (e.g., photography) it should work reasonably well for some mainstream workloads. However, putting an Apple label SSD back in though pretty much wipes out the difference ( only $100 ). I suspect most of those $1999 models are going to ship at higher price points ( some BTO added). Sub $2K just being a better psychological starting point.

    As long as Apple stays out of the dedicated display business, Dell will do OK. They have short term problem of how to get rid of their "first generation" 5K displays at the price point levels they targeted, but Dell dumps product missteps every year.


    By this time next year, Apple may wipe out the whole non-retina iMac line up ( well maybe not the entry level one with a MBA processor in it. ). Taking iMac all Retina is likely a bigger priority than any "standalone" display. Bumping the 21." up to 23.8" could do it with the smaller model using panel Dell has already been using ( http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&sku=860-BBFF ). Getting the "small" ( 21.5-23.8") panel at the right price is probably the only inhibitor at this point.

    Two, maybe three, years Apple will probably wipe non-Retina panels completely from Mac product line up. It would be next year if they could get the parts at their desired price points.

    Falling extreme top end iMac prices are potentially good though for the Mac Pro class product as it opens a range where Apple may think harder about how to put a $2,499 (or lower ) Mac Pro back into play, instead of the entry level price creep of initial Mac Pro revision. $500 lower would help sell more Mac Pros independent of what Apple label display-like product did or did provide.
     
  13. ManuelGomes macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2014
    Location:
    Aveiro, Portugal
    #13
    Intel released the SkyLake schedule recently.
    The first Xeon procs start showing up in October/November this year, but only E3 1500 v5 1S parts. Maybe the E5 will come sooner than expected.
     
  14. MacVidCards Suspended

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2008
    Location:
    Hollywood, CA
    #14
    Last week if you walked into an Apple store and said "I want a 5K iMac, how much?" they would have said $2,500.

    This week if you walk into an Apple Store and say "How much is a 5K iMac?" They will say "$2,000"

    To most people that is a $500 price reduction.

    The only thing keeping this from being a total rout for Dell's UP2715K is the fact that the back is sealed on iMac. Since it can't be repurposed as a display, it isn't as much a competition. If it had DP in and could work as a display, who would ever buy the Dell? (not sure how image & color compare, etc)

    I recently paid $2,100 for my Dell 5K. The idea that I can now walk into an Apple store and get a 5K display for $100 LESS and get a whole free computer thrown in for good measure is pretty unbelievable. Obviously there will be some shifting of prices, especially once the lower end brands get the 5K panels.
     
  15. deconstruct60, May 22, 2015
    Last edited: May 22, 2015

    deconstruct60 macrumors 604

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    #15
    The E3 series are based on the baseline desktop/laptop variant of the microarchitecture ( max 4 cores and integrated GPU). The E5 design is a completely different design team with different design constraints, but using the many of the same basic fundamental x86 core ( but different cache, internal bus, and non core, e.g., E5 v5 (Skylake ) will have PCIe v4. E3 v5 will not. Just like E5 v1 got PCIe v3 and E3 v1 did not. ) There is substantially more to Intel processor packages these days than just the x86 core internal function blocks.

    Rumors (usning leaked Intel slides) are that Intel will announce Skylake-S in Aug-Sept (around Intel developer conference) . The Xeon derivative of that, E3, shipping in Oct-Nov would be expected.


    Highly likely, no. Collectively, the E5 design is a on a different revision cadence and substantially different price curve. E5 also has longer and deeper certification process to go through with customers during beta testing. ( folks selling $10K servers tend to test they more throughly than Chinese chop shop $80 motherboards. ). Because the systems are more expensive the customer base tends to have a slower replacement rate.

    If there is something grossly wrong with E5 v4 that meant the yields on 14nm were always going to be completely crappy and needed the "optimized for 14nm" that is the v5 design for decent yields then Intel will pull v5 forward. I doubt that happened since the E5 design team trails the mainstream/laptop team to first silicon. If the smaller, easier design hit an unexpected wall there is time to propagate that problem (and perhaps root cause) back to the trailing design team. Additionally, since the E5 v4 using the exact same chipset as the v3 so there is no chipset work to do. Pulling the v5 forward means pulling both the CPU package and chipset forward.

    On the desktop/laptop side the cadence was/is shorter. If the Gen 5 (Broadwell) quad core design stumbled extremely badly on yield then Intel may toss it for the Gen 6 (Skylake) quads design explicitly optimized for 14nm to keep the margins up. If yields are just slightly off, then throw a modest price increase at the quads (and still keep the margins up).

    Just because desktop quads are switching release order places with the low and ultra low power duals doesn't means that even higher multiples cores are easier to do at 14nm. It isn't. I suspect Intel is pulling the Skylake quads forward to slide back the more strategic low/ ultra low designs a bit to give themselves more breathing room for a longer transition to 10nm ( which is likely to be as tough as the 14nm transition). Secondary to that if AMD does gets uncomfortably close to parity with their 2016 update, Intel can more their quads to 10nm first if that is necessary for competitive advantage.
     
  16. deconstruct60, May 22, 2015
    Last edited: May 22, 2015

    deconstruct60 macrumors 604

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    #16
    Same thing to the utterly clueless. It isn't the same iMac. The lame sales pitch hocus pocus here is that vague "5k iMac" term to switch between products.

    The new , non temporary sales , prices are the only thing relevant if buying now. What an iMac cost a year ago doesn't matter now. Nether does a week ago.



    Most 5K display vendors that announced after Apple's intro didn't have a problem undercutting Apple. HP 27" 5K .... $1999 list

    http://www8.hp.com/us/en/products/monitors/product-detail.html?oid=7130944

    and much less elsewhere.

    B&H $1223

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...Mu1lOzK1cUCFYk7aQodVIIAUQ&Q=&is=REG&A=details

    [ Dell 5K at B&H $1978
    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/con...Kqmv5jQ1cUCFQwNaQod3aMAbg&Q=&is=REG&A=details [



    $1,999 - 1,223 = $776

    A $776 computer for "free" ? ..... quite believable.


    This same price crater in 4-6 months happened with the 4K mania too. The very narrow set of monitors were > $2K. The commodity pricing war starts and roughly equivalent models are 1/2 the price in 6 months later.

    Apple's 5K monitor support is narrow right now but if can wait 6-9 months can probably get a better deal. Chasing after the latest, greatest tech spec porn is expensive. It is quite believable to blow tons of money doing it.


    P.S. this relatively rapid collapsing, highly commodity pricing in the monitor market is exactly why Apple has largely left that market and is quite open to 3rd parties filling that role. Even the Display docking station is relatively low priority when there is this amount of volatility in the pricing.
     
  17. theSeb macrumors 604

    theSeb

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Location:
    Poole, England
    #17
    TB3 is coming with Skylake. When will we get Skylake Xeons? Nobody knows, so I would not count on a Mac Pro refresh any time soon. Intel can't find the time to release Broadwell properly, never mind Skylake,
     

Share This Page