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It has a 10% larger battery. If battery life decreases then something is really wrong.

But you're assuming battery life is going to decrease. We can wait for the benchmarks before making that judgement. Also, keep in mind that the A7 is running at a higher frequency than the A6 (1.3 vs. 1.7Ghz is what I hear) that by itself will cause a reduction in battery life.


And there were/are game developers who said that the PS4 is 'a generation ahead of PCs'.

You mean one EA exec. A single exec is not the same a "developers".

Considering that PC devs have had no problem working games such as Crysis 3 on 32 bit executables (which only uses about 1.5 GB ram) and haven't ever felt the need to use a 64 bit executable even though they easily could for the PC port (yes some complain about it but they use 32 bit code anyway and never push the RAM limitations- Metro games use consistently less than 250 MB of RAM, often much less) I'll call BS on this one.

You seem to be suggesting that anything above 32-bit is unnecessary, and if you aren't then I'm not sure what your point is here. Crysis 3 and the Metro games required so little RAM because they are extremely linear with extremely low draw distances and zero backtracking (basically the opposite of an open world/sandbox environment). Not every game is so linear and thus cannot be run with less than 4gigs of RAM. Regardless, the articles I linked merely pointed to the performance benefits associated with going to 64-bit that are unrelated to using over 4gigs of RAM. So your point isn't even relevant to the topic.
 
the minute i saw the apple guy at the conference babbling on about 64-bit architecture i knew it was a desperate move by apple to disguise the lack of innovation on the new iphones.

even if the 64-bit technology works as intended in less than 4GB of RAM:

1. only very few apps will actually benefit from it noticeably.

2. only the geeks will know what 64-bit architecture is and that it has been implemented on their phone.





i bet you will never again see a mention of the 64-bit architecture by apple. it certainly won't appear on their forthcoming ads.

the reason? most people haven't got a clue what it means and what it does.


looking back previous iphone presentations by steve jobs when they talked about "stuff that matters, stuff that works, stuff that made people's lives easier" to today, when they talk about "64-bits", "pixel micron size" and what not and you realise how their imagination just stopped.

You could *ahem* read the articles linked in the OP. Or see my excerpts from them above.

It's not just hype and it is certainly not a "desperate" move by Apple! LOL! That's a completely inapplicable word to use! Given Apples sales records and earnings reports, quarter after quarter, how could Apple possible be desperate. In point of fact they are the opposite. They are very much self assured, self-confident, and self-directed. Apple is a very savvy and technically brilliant company.

This is why people enjoy calling them "desperate" and "lazy": because Apple's dominance offends and annoys them. Apple is so clearly on top and so obviously NOT standing still.

They may disappoint those who want this or that, or who have a difference of philosophy. And they definitely DO hype their stuff. They are very good at marketing. Show me a successful company that isn't and that doesn't! But they pretty much never do anything out of desperation or laziness or simply for "hype". They have very good reasons for moving to 64 bit, and while the move may not make much difference now, it's important for the future.

This is called foresight not desperation.

----------

No.

The A7 chip is more advanced than the A6X. No one releases a chip in mobile that is worse in perf/watt than its predecessor. The question is not "Is the A7 more efficient than the A6X?" but "Is a 64 bit A7 chip less efficient than a 32 bit A7 chip?" No one is disputing that the A7 is better than the A6X just saying that a 32 bit version may have been better.

OK. That's fair. I see your point.

But it seems that there are conflicting reports about the impact of 64 bit on power usage. I don't think that you can just write the OP sources off as not credible. I'll have to do some research into this at some point--probably tomorrow--and see if I can find a way to resolve this.
 
Much of this is propaganda.

Games are not suddenly going to be better. I hope these people realize that pretty much EVERY SINGLE computer game runs a 32 bit binary.

Its nice but rather pointless at this point in time.

orry_2.jpg


http://www.start64.com/index.php?option=com_content&id=190

Fact is, a lot of popular PC games are console ports. Consoles don't have mega ram. Another issue is compatibility. 32bit is still the dominant force. Make a 64bit game and you just excluded most of your customer base. Code for both and you just increased your overhead. But more and more games are coming out with 64bit support as evidenced by that list. Again, this is a step in the right direction for the future of mobile devices. The stage is now set. And if mobile phones all start getting 64bit love from games, more PC games might too since a lot of these companies also make mobile games.

Also, about the 64bit chip being all propaganda and useless? Read this and the excellent post from eoblaed below:

http://venturebeat.com/2013/09/12/more-power-what-iphone-5ss-64-bit-processor-means-for-gaming/

Too bad we can't have a policy that prevents people that clearly don't understand the full implications of a true 64 bit architecture (from a hardware, software, and hardware/software integration point of view) from posting on this topic.

I know people mean well when they way it's rubbish, or propaganda, or hype. I know they think they have the whole package when they mention 4GB of ram, or doubling of pointer sizes ... but there is so, so much more to 64 bit architecture than just directly accessing >4GB of RAM, or the fact that pointer sizes double.

The size of the bus, the reduction in trips out to memory and back, the dramatic reduction in cycles required for any math requiring 64 bit (or larger) data types, the doubling of registers. There is so much that, done right, can take good advantage of the new architecture. Much of the underlying OS that the phone runs on, for example. Many types of applications will benefit. Anything that involves encryption will greatly benefit.

Don't believe people that say it's just a marketing bullet point. It's not. Will it suddenly make your phone achieve Warp Factor 10? No. But it will have a very real impact and opens up more possibilities not only for the OS but for new hardware, applications, and design considerations.
 
i bet you will never again see a mention of the 64-bit architecture by apple. it certainly won't appear on their forthcoming ads.

Which is why Samsung immediately came out an claimed that their next generation of phones would be 64-bit...because everyone thinks it's a stupid idea :roll: . It is more about the future of mobile computing, and most of the immediate benefits will be in the gaming arena...where both Google and Apple are attempting to become major players. The A7 (64-bit included) is partly about Apple taking a step towards taking over the position currently held by the X-Box and PlayStation. I absolutely agree that few current apps will see much benefit, but the move is geared to the future rather than the past.
 
But you're assuming battery life is going to decrease. We can wait for the benchmarks before making that judgement. Also, keep in mind that the A7 is running at a higher frequency than the A6 (1.3 vs. 1.7Ghz is what I hear) that by itself will cause a reduction in battery life.

You mean one EA exec. A single exec is not the same a "developers".

You seem to be suggesting that anything above 32-bit is unnecessary, and if you aren't then I'm not sure what your point is here. Crysis 3 and the Metro games required so little RAM because they are extremely linear with extremely low draw distances and zero backtracking (basically the opposite of an open world/sandbox environment). Not every game is so linear and thus cannot be run with less than 4gigs of RAM. Regardless, the articles I linked merely pointed to the performance benefits associated with going to 64-bit that are unrelated to using over 4gigs of RAM. So your point isn't even relevant to the topic.

10% larger battery on a newer chip. Don't expect battery life to decrease, Possibly a 32 bit A7 would consume less energy than a 64 bit A7.

Lots of devs hyped/are hyping the PS4/Xbone.

Your article is one source which does not attempt to give any reason why perf/watt will be improved besides saying 'it will increase':rolleyes:.

Crysis 3 has several very large levels. Metro is segmented but then consumes so little RAM you could easily multiply its RAM use by 6 and still be well under 2 GB.

For full blown PC games 64 bit may help in certain cases. For ios games? I really doubt it.

I can't really see an iphone/ipad running a detailed open world game at this point in time.
 
iz2sick,

Thanks for the link. Here's a pretty pro-64 bit excerpt (but read whole article):

“Apple showed a chart that says the new A7 chip is two times the raw horsepower of the A6 that was in the iPhone 5,” said Mustard. “We’re actually seeing even greater gains because the 64-bit processor is running instructions even more efficiently. We’re actually seeing our load times increase five times on iPhone 5S. It feels fantastic. It loads almost instantly.”
Really, as with anything you find in a spec sheet, a “64-bit processor” only means something if it actually improves the end-user performance. According to guys like Mustard and Blow, the iPhone 5S’s new guts will do exactly that in the near and long-term.
 
Which is why Samsung immediately came out an claimed that their next generation of phones would be 64-bit...because everyone thinks it's a stupid idea :roll: . It is more about the future of mobile computing, and most of the immediate benefits will be in the gaming arena...where both Google and Apple are attempting to become major players. The A7 (64-bit included) is partly about Apple taking a step towards taking over the position currently held by the X-Box and PlayStation. I absolutely agree that few current apps will see much benefit, but the move is geared to the future rather than the past.

Which is great. But Apple have added technology to their phone that won't be fully utilized for a few years and missed off other technology that could be utilized now. That is why they are attracting criticism for it. If the Iphone 5s was innovative, evolutionary with state of the art technology, the addition of 64 bit architecture would have only attracted further praise. But they've produced a phone with very minor upgrades to it's predecessor and have failed to add other tech that is appearing in rival phones. Instead they've added something that can't really be fully monopolized and claiming they're still innovating.
 
Which is great. But Apple have added technology to their phone that won't be fully utilized for a few years and missed off other technology that could be utilized now. That is why they are attracting criticism for it. If the Iphone 5s was innovative, evolutionary with state of the art technology, the addition of 64 bit architecture would have only attracted further praise. But they've produced a phone with very minor upgrades to it's predecessor and have failed to add other tech that is appearing in rival phones. Instead they've added something that can't really be fully monopolized and claiming they're still innovating.

What other tech from rivals? Bigger screens? Motion gestures?

Apple hasn't produced minor upgrades. The camera isn't a minor upgrade (on paper, but I'm confident given their track record with camera quality that they mean every word they say about the camera), the A7 chip isn't a minor upgrade, the M7 isn't a minor upgrade (again this one sounds good on paper and remains to be seen if it holds any real value), the overhauled graphics isn't minor...

I mean, honestly... what do you guys want from Apple? This debate always comes down to shell design and screen size. That's not innovation. In fact, nothing is innovation anymore. We have ourselves a matured smartphone market. It's all about evolutions and Apple just kick-started an evolution of processing power. Sure, the 64bit's potential may not be fully realized in the 5S, but the facts remain:

1) It will definitely give a performance boost as evidence by the article I linked earlier and the fact that iOS7 will be optimized for it

2) Apple now has a nice upgrade path for their iPad line.

And again I find myself pointing out that 120fps 720p video is a gnarly feature to have on a cell phone. I can record my buddies doing their snowboard tricks with my iPhone now and edit a high quality video with smooth slowmo. Pretty neat considering that I found myself recording more with my iPhone and less with my GoPro 2 (which by the way didn't have the 120fps @720p capability... that feature is in the GoPro 3).
 
Fact is, a lot of popular PC games are console ports. Consoles don't have mega ram. Another issue is compatibility. 32bit is still the dominant force. Make a 64bit game and you just excluded most of your customer base. Code for both and you just increased your overhead. But more and more games are coming out with 64bit support as evidenced by that list. Again, this is a step in the right direction for the future of mobile devices. The stage is now set. And if mobile phones all start getting 64bit love from games, more PC games might too since a lot of these companies also make mobile games.

Also, about the 64bit chip being all propaganda and useless? Read this and the excellent post from eoblaed below:

http://venturebeat.com/2013/09/12/more-power-what-iphone-5ss-64-bit-processor-means-for-gaming/

I agree somewhat. I just don't think this is the time to do it. Wait until 64 bit ARM officially launches (for servers) then release it. Apple is mindlessly jumping the gun adding cost and complexity for little benefit. In 3 years when 64 bit takes off in mobile the 5S is going to be too outdated to do very much (like a iphone 4 is today).
They made a 64 bit video console a long time ago (forget which one) and it sucked badly as 64 bit didn't do crap for it compared to raw power.
 
Yep. I agree for the most part. I just don't think this is the time to do it. Wait until 64 bit ARM officially launches (for servers) then release it. Apple is mindlessly jumping the gun adding cost and complexity for little benefit. In 3 years when 64 bit takes off in mobile the 5S is going to be too outdated to do very much (like a iphone 4 is today).

They made a 64 bit video console a long time ago (forget which one) and it sucked badly as 64 bit didn't do crap for it compared to raw power.

Nintendo 64...

Anyway, I am almost certain Apple has plans for the A7 in their next iPads.

But still, I welcome the 64bit performance enhancements like shorter load times and smoother iOS operation. I've always held iPhones as the golden standard for smoother OS operation. I've molested so many phones and none of them run as buttery smooth as the iPhone and it's in-house developed OS. I mean, plenty phones run super fast now, but they don't have that refined quality about them as you scroll from page to page on the screen. But maybe it's because I've been on iPhones for the past 6 years and now I'm spoiled.
 
What other tech from rivals? Bigger screens? Motion gestures?

There's lots of stuff. Waterproofing for starters, Sony have managed to do it without sacrificing too much in size. Are you aware of how many Iphones die because of water damage? My 4 died as I was foolish enough to use it in light rain. Apple would be critically aware of the considerable amount of Iphones that suffer water damage, yet do nothing about it..



The camera isn't a minor upgrade (on paper

It's a major upgrade from the Iphone 5, but that's because the camera in the Iphone 5 was so poor. Terrible in lowlight, zero OIS, no burst mode, an error prone panoramic mode. You have to remember you can buy $50 P&Ss from kmart that are superior to the Iphone's camera. The Iphone costs in excess of AU $1000 - that is not acceptable. The cost is not in proportion to the level of technology found in the Iphone. Charge me $500 and you'll have no complaints.
 
What other tech from rivals? Bigger screens? Motion gestures?

Apple hasn't produced minor upgrades. The camera isn't a minor upgrade (on paper, but I'm confident given their track record with camera quality that they mean every word they say about the camera), the A7 chip isn't a minor upgrade, the M7 isn't a minor upgrade (again this one sounds good on paper and remains to be seen if it holds any real value), the overhauled graphics isn't minor...

I mean, honestly... what do you guys want from Apple? This debate always comes down to shell design and screen size. That's not innovation. In fact, nothing is innovation anymore. We have ourselves a matured smartphone market. It's all about evolutions and Apple just kick-started an evolution of processing power. Sure, the 64bit's potential may not be fully realized in the 5S, but the facts remain:

1) It will definitely give a performance boost as evidence by the article I linked earlier and the fact that iOS7 will be optimized for it

2) Apple now has a nice upgrade path for their iPad line.

And again I find myself pointing out that 120fps 720p video is a gnarly feature to have on a cell phone. I can record my buddies doing their snowboard tricks with my iPhone now and edit a high quality video with smooth slowmo. Pretty neat considering that I found myself recording more with my iPhone and less with my GoPro 2 (which by the way didn't have the 120fps @720p capability... that feature is in the GoPro 3).

Honestly I couldn't care less about what apple puts in their phone. It will forever be off the table unless they put in a larger (4.5" screen). Family members have an iphone and desperately hate it and want to get rid of it due to the small screen. I want a 4.5" screen, removable storage, and a replaceable battery (iphone battery crapping out). If you are offering those then I'll buy your product. I don't care about whatever knick-knacks they put in there, I just want to be able to replace my storage and battery and have a large screen.

Um, everyone improves their camera, everyone improves performance. M7 and fingerprint remain to be seen.

The best thing for apple about 120 fps 720p video is that it will chew up tons of non-user upgradable space requiring you to buy the more expensive SKU.
 
Nintendo 64...

Anyway, I am almost certain Apple has plans for the A7 in their next iPads.

But still, I welcome the 64bit performance enhancements like shorter load times and smoother iOS operation. I've always held iPhones as the golden standard for smoother OS operation. I've molested so many phones and none of them run as buttery smooth as the iPhone and it's in-house developed OS. I mean, plenty phones run super fast now, but they don't have that refined quality about them as you scroll from page to page on the screen. But maybe it's because I've been on iPhones for the past 6 years and now I'm spoiled.

Better nand will help much more. I have never heard of 64 bit loading faster or being smoother. If you compare 32 bit vs 64 bit win 7/xp load times the 32 bit version loads consistently faster due to less data being read from the HDD (the flash/nand/emmc being quite slow).

There's lots of stuff. Waterproofing for starters, Sony have managed to do it without sacrificing too much in size. Are you aware of how many Iphones die because of water damage? My 4 died as I was foolish enough to use it in light rain. Apple would be critically aware of the considerable amount of Iphones that suffer water damage, yet do nothing about it..

I will say that waterproofing is probably one of the best things that they could.
 
There's lots of stuff. Waterproofing for starters, Sony have managed to do it without sacrificing too much in size. Are you aware of how many Iphones die because of water damage? My 4 died as I was foolish enough to use it in light rain. Apple would be critically aware of the considerable amount of Iphones that suffer water damage, yet do nothing about it..





It's a major upgrade from the Iphone 5, but that's because the camera in the Iphone 5 was so poor. Terrible in lowlight, zero OIS, no burst mode, an error prone panoramic mode. You have to remember you can buy $50 P&Ss from kmart that are superior to the Iphone's camera. The Iphone costs in excess of AU $1000 - that is not acceptable. The cost is not in proportion to the level of technology found in the Iphone. Charge me $500 and you'll have no complaints.

iPhone 5's camera was decent enough for everyday users. And actually, I've abandoned my p&s altogether because I found myself snapping great pictures of my kids with my 4S. I've even made albums out of them and they look beautiful. Nobody has ever looked at the albums and said, "Hey, these look like cell phone pictures." They get shocked when I tell them they are.

I mean come on, you can't seriously say these aren't good enough can you? Unless of course you do more than the average user...

http://www.evocative.cc/can-the-iphone-5-camera-really-replace-your-point-and-shoot/

Honestly I couldn't care less about what apple puts in their phone. It will forever be off the table unless they put in a larger (4.5" screen). Family members have an iphone and desperately hate it and want to get rid of it due to the small screen. I want a 4.5" screen, removable storage, and a replaceable battery (iphone battery crapping out). If you are offering those then I'll buy your product. I don't care about whatever knick-knacks they put in there, I just want to be able to replace my storage and battery and have a large screen.

Um, everyone improves their camera, everyone improves performance. M7 and fingerprint remain to be seen.

The best thing for apple about 120 fps 720p video is that it will chew up tons of non-user upgradable space requiring you to buy the more expensive SKU.

At least you admit not caring about what runs the phone as much as you do a bigger size. And my experience is opposite of yours. My family and friends, that aren't techies (which is basically the vast majority of them), are turned off by the bigger screens. They want phones that fit in their pockets comfortably and don't make them look silly when they hold it up to their ears. Me? I'm all about that Note III right now, but the majority aren't like me.

Of course everyone improves performance. That's been my point all along. There is no innovation in this market. There is only evolutions.

Listen, I want expandable memory as much as the next guy, but that's not likely anytime soon from Apple. You know how I get by? Uploading my videos and photos regularly and deleting them off my phone. I don't want to sift through hundreds of pics and videos anyway on my phone.

And if I'm shooting action shots that make use of the 720p 120fps, rest assured that video is getting uploaded to my PC with the quickness. Not because I'm sweating for space, but because I want that sucker edited and uploaded to my friends.

----------

Better nand will help much more. I have never heard of 64 bit loading faster or being smoother. If you compare 32 bit vs 64 bit win 7/xp load times the 32 bit version loads consistently faster due to less data being read from the HDD (the flash/nand/emmc being quite slow).

Look at my post a few back. There's a link from a gaming site where the person interviewed several developers about the 64bit chip.

I will say that waterproofing is probably one of the best things that they could.

Yea, that I totally agree with. But understand that Sony has experience in that type of tech. Especially considering that they have an action camera now (GoPro competitor).
 
There's a trend I've seen manifest in virtually every thread about the 64 bit revelation on the 5S. It's acutely obvious in this thread as well.

There are people that have no idea what 64 bit is, if it's good, bad, indifferent. Many of them don't know what a 'bit' is. These are non-technical folk that are just curious what it all means.

Then, there are people that work intimately with this kind of technology. They're very familiar with all the pros, cons, implications, impacts, affects, big wins, and risky 'gotchas' that are associated with 64 bit architecture. They've done engineering specifically for 64 bit systems. They've done the same on 32 bit systems. They understand the overhead involved in running many modern types of software on a 32 bit system. They've written code in these circles. Some of them, lots and lots of code. They know how the hardware will help them where it hindered before. They know /exactly/ what this all means.

Finally, there is a large swath of people that inhabit the vast middle ground between those two extremes. They've heard a few bullet points here and there. They've read some blog posts about it, seen some webpages on it. They have some degree of technical acumen, but have no personal or professional exposure to actual hardware or software development with respect to 32 bit and 64 bit issues. If they do have some exposure it's limited, certainly not enough to be able to distinguish fact from misinformation.

The problem we're seeing here is that it doesn't matter what the people with the real knowledge of all the issues at hand say. It doesn't matter when people that know all the different things 64 bits are used for, all the benefits it offers over 32 bits, say 'this is a good thing'. There's a sizable chunk of people in that middle swath that want to sound like they know what they're talking about and poo-poo the whole thing. Once they've made a statement, they're unwilling to back down from it.

So, well intentioned, but ultimately uninformed, people make claims. Seasoned, professional experts (in this industry) point out, that no, this really is a good thing. The uninformed stand their ground. The professionals rebut. The uninformed stand their ground. I don't think it matters what we respond with, nothing we say will hold weight against the sheer weight of comments/pages floating around on the internet also written by people that don't fully understand the whole arena.

To those that don't understand 64 bit vs 32 bit and don't care about the details, those of you that just want to know "is this a real thing? or just a marketing gimmick", I say this:

Do not worry about what the detractors say. They mean well, but do not understand all the differences, what those differences mean, and how they impact the hardware, software, and the interactions between the two. This is a real thing that will confer real benefits. These benefits will be realized immediately, with compounding and increasing benefits carrying on into the future.

And let me be clear. Obviously, there's nothing wrong having little or zero knowledge of these issues. Trying to educate people on a topic that you have limited knowledge on, however, is less than ideal.

This whole thread is really just a (somewhat frustrating) exercise in philosophical discourse: the phone is going to be released with a gorgeous 64 bit architecture and properly integrated 64 bit software. Regardless what people in this, or any other thread say, people will buy this phone, people will enjoy this phone, developers will love that they can finally write performant mobile software on a 64 bit platform, and those of us in the development fields (mobile or otherwise) will remember when the first 64 bit phone came out.

TL;DR

If you don't know if 64 bit presents real benefits to the phone right now, trust those of us that have written code for years with with bit-width dependent hardware and software, every day, for a living: it does.

And: this is an un-winable debate when those that aren't intimately familiar with all the aspects of what this means ignore those that do.
 
Which is why Samsung immediately came out an claimed that their next generation of phones would be 64-bit...because everyone thinks it's a stupid idea :roll:

Well considering Samsung's next generation of phones will most likely exceed the memory limit for 32 bit processors, they kinda have to switch to 64 bit.
 
iPhone 5's camera was decent enough for everyday users. And actually, I've abandoned my p&s altogether because I found myself snapping great pictures of my kids with my 4S. I've even made albums out of them and they look beautiful. Nobody has ever looked at the albums and said, "Hey, these look like cell phone pictures." They get shocked when I tell them they are.

I mean come on, you can't seriously say these aren't good enough can you? Unless of course you do more than the average user...

http://www.evocative.cc/can-the-iphone-5-camera-really-replace-your-point-and-shoot/

Yup those photos are great. I like the one from the veranda. This photo was also taken with an Iphone
ippanaturefirstplace.jpg



You can take great pics with an Iphone, under the right conditions. Try taking one in low light or from a moving obkect whhen OIS would come in handy. The flash is terrible -as exemplified below:
-2.jpg


My mate is a photographer and he takes amazing pics with his 4S. But amazing photos doesn't mean an amazing camera. Give Roger Federer a crappy old wooden racket from the 70s and he would still thrash anyone that crossed his path, that doesn't make the racket any good! Give the Iphone to your 6 year old daughter or your Granny, tell them to go out and take pictures daytime, low light, night shots using the flash - THEN you judge whether or not it's a good camera.
 
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Look at my post a few back. There's a link from a gaming site where the person interviewed several developers about the 64bit chip.

And frankly I don't believe them. PC games support several versions of DX but not 32 and 64 bit executables. I don't think that iphones/ipads have the processing power required to use 64 bit (which is going to use more power and die space). We hear hype about every new product and a lot of times that's all it is. Intel's AVX2 for haswell was/is supposed to change things (double integer performance) but the only thing thats using it off the top of my head is handbrake.
 
Better nand will help much more. I have never heard of 64 bit loading faster or being smoother. If you compare 32 bit vs 64 bit win 7/xp load times the 32 bit version loads consistently faster due to less data being read from the HDD (the flash/nand/emmc being quite slow).



I will say that waterproofing is probably one of the best things that they could.

Yup those photos are great. I like the one from the veranda. This photo was also taken with an Iphone Image

You can take great pics with an Iphone, under the right conditions. Try taking one in low light or from a moving obkect whhen OIS would come in handy. The flash is terrible -as exemplified below:Image

My mate is a photographer and he takes amazing pics with his 4S. But amazing photos doesn't mean an amazing camera. Give Roger Federer a crappy old wooden racket from the 70s and he would still thrash anyone that crossed his path, that doesn't make the racket any good! Give the Iphone to your 6 year old daughter or your Granny, tell them to go out and take pictures daytime, low light, night shots using the flash - THEN you judge whether or not it's a good camera.

Your example holds no ground in terms of determining camera quality. Give those same people a great DSLR camera and they will still take crappy pictures. But sure, they have a better chance at taking a good one with a superior camera. But that is an obvious aside.

Low-light performance is also an issue so I won't argue that. But as I look through my thousands of photos, only a small percentage are in low-light. Flash? I rarely even use it. But when I do, I make sure I get a few shots from different angles and distance so I can pick the photo with the least amount of wash.

One problem I see with cell phone photos is that users simply do not take the little time required to learn how the camera works. Many people don't even realize that you can focus on different areas of the photo which will change the contrast and brightness.

You don't need to be some photography pro to take good pics with the iPhone. You don't even need perfect conditions. Just get some light in the photo and don't point directly at the light source (you shouldn't do this with point-and-shoots either anyway).

Maybe the camera absolutely blows for people who work graveyard shifts outside or hang out in night clubs 24/7.

Nobody is arguing that point-and-shoots aren't better. Of course they are better. But for the vast majority of situations, the iPhone takes plenty of comparable pics. If you take mostly dark shots, then you should pack a p&s with you. Don't expect phones to catch up to their low-light performance for a while. Not even the Lumia 1020 can take night shots as good and that camera is an absolute beast for a cellphone.
 
Also, again Samsung taking the lead in innovation, already has 64-bit architecture in its next phone (to be released late 2014).

64-bit on an unreleased phone is "taking the lead in innovation" whereas 64-bit on a currently released phone is not?
 
No. I've already read enough from credible sources to understand that at this moment in time 64 bit architecture will offer only slight benefits. Additionally there are a number of downsides, which include greater drain on the battery. For every website you find extolling the virtues of having 64bit architecture in the Iphone 5S, I will find 5 that contradict it. Perhaps in 1 - 2 years we will see the benefits, but not at the moment.

Having thought about it, do you mind sharing the links to those credible sources. I am very curious about this tech, and honestly I haven't found any articles written on tech sight who see no immediate benefit to this move. I found one on Examiner.com and another on The Register.com, neither legitimate news sources.

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64-bit on an unreleased phone is "taking the lead in innovation" whereas 64-bit on a currently released phone is not?

I was being sarcastic in that one sentence.
 
Which is great. But Apple have added technology to their phone that won't be fully utilized for a few years and missed off other technology that could be utilized now. That is why they are attracting criticism for it. If the Iphone 5s was innovative, evolutionary with state of the art technology, the addition of 64 bit architecture would have only attracted further praise. But they've produced a phone with very minor upgrades to it's predecessor and have failed to add other tech that is appearing in rival phones. Instead they've added something that can't really be fully monopolized and claiming they're still innovating.

I don’t disagree with what you said about thte 64-bit; however I believe getting a jump on the 64-bit move will have a significant benefit in next 1-3 years, while Android will be struggling to get the ball rolling. The criticism they’ve received has largely been from Phandroids who would be praising the move had Samsung or Google introduced it (normally in the cesspit that is the typical comment section on most techblogs like BGR and others). I am yet to read an article from a credible source badmouthing the decision.
No piece of hardware will every include every feature desired by every niche portion of the population, but I agree that iOS 7 missed some obvious features. Not including NFC was probably a good decision as Apple believes that the technology has little future and BLE does (and they’re correct). Of course, it’s your opinion that the 5s lacked innovation and I disagree. With possibly the best camera (that doesn’t significantly distort the size of the phone) and apparently the best SoC on the market…not to mention the most advanced user authentication feature available (assuming it works), claiming they didn’t innovate is dishonest or biased IMHO. One thing that Android manufactures do that has been wise has been to release software updates with the release of their new phone. This allows them to point to all of the phones “new features” even though they update their previous phones a few months later (despite being able to update all the phones at same time if they wanted to). Because iOS releases updates for all eligible devices simultaneously, the improvement is not identified as a feature to the new phone and therefore doesn’t count as an improvement in the eyes of many.
 
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Your article is one source which does not attempt to give any reason why perf/watt will be improved besides saying 'it will increase':rolleyes:.

I've read several (at least 10), but only posted 2. Please post some articles claiming the contrary (from legit tech sites).

For full blown PC games 64 bit may help in certain cases. For ios games? I really doubt it.

You doubt it? By all means, please explain why the articles are wrong. Not interested in your opinion. Why are they wrong. Just becasue Crysis 3 can be ran with little RAM doesn't prove that the 64-bit A7 will provide zero benefit to games.

. I can't really see an iphone/ipad running a detailed open world game at this point in time.

Again your opinion is based upon on experiences with devices without the A7 and again the articles agreed that the full benefit of the move will be a few years in the future. The articles merely point out that the 64-bit platform will have some immediate benefits to performance. You haven't even attempted to address this point (and it was the only point being made). I get that it's your opinion that theyre won't be any immediate benefit, but you don't want to touch the points made in the article it appears. If the articles are wrong (and they might be), it certainly isn't because of any of the reasons you've listed thus far.
 
Which is why Samsung immediately came out an claimed that their next generation of phones would be 64-bit...because everyone thinks it's a stupid idea :roll: . It is more about the future of mobile computing, and most of the immediate benefits will be in the gaming arena...where both Google and Apple are attempting to become major players. The A7 (64-bit included) is partly about Apple taking a step towards taking over the position currently held by the X-Box and PlayStation. I absolutely agree that few current apps will see much benefit, but the move is geared to the future rather than the past.


samsung didnt come out to say they would implement 64-bit in their next phones - they were asked and they replied!

its the natural next step.
 
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