Interstellar Movie 2014 (SPOILERS)

[Huntn]

​

Opening day, ok, I took a chance at the early show and was rewarded! This movie feels epic, although some may not like it. Mathew McConaughey does a great job. Great conceptual ideas and heady stuff, but possibly hard to comprehend. I give it a thumbs up, but there is room for critiques and imo unanswered questions. You just have to go with what the story tells you. Relativity plays a huge role in the story.
________________________________________________
Spoilers that follow are not hidden... stop here if you've not seen it.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.

In this science fiction movie a problem is presented, one that will wipe out the human race, with no available solution other than to escape from Earth, but something about gravity is needed, an equation that will allow us to escape in mass as long as we find another planet to live on. Devoted scientist, Dr. Brand (Michael Kane) has been working on this solution for 40 years, but his solution fails because he can't retrieve necessary quantum data that just so happens to be on the other side of the newly discovered worm/black hole in our solar system.
This convenient worm/black hole is out by Saturn and probes that have been sent through show there are 12 possible planets to live on. So it would be win-win, a livable planet closer than 100 years to get to and the answer to an equation about gravity that will allow us to escape Earth in mass.

Discussion:
*The original team transverses the worm hole without issue, so what is this grand 3 blackboards wide formula going to fix, overcoming gravity to move a large space station built underground off the planet? When a plot turns on an an unknown like this, something vague and made up, that changes the nature of gravity, it can be rightly critiqued, Imo, but I was able to get past that. Besides Gravity is one of the elements manipulated by the future beings we don't see.
*Cooper (McConaughey) sends back the quantum data to his daughter Murphy, by means of a watch with a twitchy second hand signaling morse code, which we are left to imagine how he did that, but they don't show the result of how this data is utilized. It can be assumed the space station was lifted and somehow it makes the evacuation of Earth easier.
*At a point 120 years from the beginning of the story, after Murphy has solved the gravity equation, is the human race moving to live on the planet Amelia has found herself on, the planet located through the worm hole, or are they just content to float around this solar system in large livable habitats? Not really addressed.
*The hardest concept to comprehend, why the constructed 3D space inside the singularity that allows Cooper to send his daughter the needed data to complete the gravity equation- this is something constructed by "us", as in human beings from the future who have evolved into 5D entities (gravity and time) and they are also responsible for the positioning of worm hole which makes them very very futuristic, all most God-like. Why would our future selves need to help our present selves? We obviously made it to the future. So has the future all ready happened or is it happening simotaneously with the present? Is this a paradox?

At first I thought the robot, the walking slab was stupid, but it had so much character I grew to love it.

 

[Renzatic]

We obviously made it to the future. So has the future all ready happened or is it happening simotaneously with the present? Is this a paradox?

Nope. It's only a paradox if the timeline contradicts itself. What you saw in the movie was a coherent, if nonlinear, timeline.

It would've only been a paradox if Coop ended up travelling along with Amelia to the third planet, never sacrificing himself to the black hole. If he never went there, he never would've visited the tesseract, never would have been able to provide Murphy with the answer to her gravitational problem, and she never would've found the means to the salvation of humanity.

Everyone would've died on Earth, and thus no future humans to send help back. Cooper never would've sent himself the coordinates to NASA, and he would've stayed on Earth. Not that there would've been a NASA to go back to, because without a wormhole orbiting Saturn, the space program would've never been rebuilt, thus no 12 pioneers, and no eventual tesseract to allow Cooper to interact with the past.

But since he took all the required steps, AND the future humans created the tesseract for him to make said required steps, it becomes coherent, and thus not a paradox.

It might not make sense because for the future to exist, the future has to interact with the past. But since the act was already made at that point in time, it ultimate doesn't matter. It's the act itself that's important. It's like a sorta self fulfilling prophecy in a way.

 

[Huntn]

Nope. It's only a paradox if the timeline contradicts itself. What you saw in the movie was a coherent, if nonlinear, timeline.

It would've only been a paradox if Coop ended up travelling along with Amelia to the third planet, never sacrificing himself to the black hole. If he never went there, he never would've visited the tesseract, never would have been able to provide Murphy with the answer to her gravitational problem, and she never would've found the means to the salvation of humanity.

Everyone would've died on Earth, and thus no future humans to send help back. Cooper never would've sent himself the coordinates to NASA, and he would've stayed on Earth. Not that there would've been a NASA to go back to, because without a wormhole orbiting Saturn, the space program would've never been rebuilt, thus no 12 pioneers, and no eventual tesseract to allow Cooper to interact with the past.
S
But since he took all the required steps, AND the future humans created the tesseract for him to make said required steps, it becomes coherent, and thus not a paradox.

It might not make sense because for the future to exist, the future has to interact with the past. But since the act was already made at that point in time, it ultimate doesn't matter. It's the act itself that's important. It's like a sorta self fulfilling prophecy in a way.

Thanks for the explanation! After thinking about it for a bit, if I can accept the idea of a future Coop interacting with his past (which I can) , then the precedent is all ready set, and technically I should have no problem with future humans interacting with present humans especially if they can manipulate time and gravity. However, if we believe we are anchored in the here and now, interacting with our selves in different time periods could be considered a paradox, but I'm not sure how quantum physics views time. I do know that particles can be considered to be everywhere at once and that they take multiple paths simotaneously, so maybe not that much of a paradox at all.

So what did you think?

 

[Renzatic]

So what did you think?

I thought of this after writing up my post above.

Think of the way we perceive time. A is the past, C is the future, and B is the present, always moving along a straight line between the two. I think the way quantum physics looks at time is like a waveform, with A being the past, B the point of observation, and there are a near infinite number of Cs that will turn into a single B when observed. That's linear time, which, from our current vantage point, seems to be immutable. The future is up in the air, but the past is fixed and gone.

Now these future humans apparently see time as another spatial axis. For them, time is nonlinear, at least up til their own personal B/Present (which is probably what they consider the 5th dimension). Now if they can see time as such, then obviously time itself has to be a nonlinear space to allow them to interact with it in the first place. Only our current perception of time makes it seem otherwise. For them, going back in the past and changing something is as easy as us walking around the block and putting down a few road cones to change traffic in the future

So for the future to exist, the future has to change the past to assure its own existence makes sense when you think of time as a space that can be traversed, rather than a line that's always moving forward. It happened because at some point something existed that could make it happen. It begets itself. Anything that can happen will happen and has happened.

It might take 10 billion years for a universe to evolve such a creature, but once it pops into existence, it's effectively existed since the beginning of time.

 

[Huntn]

I thought of this after writing up my post above.

Think of the way we perceive time. A is the past, C is the future, and B is the present, always moving along a straight line between the two. I think the way quantum physics looks at time is like a waveform, with A being the past, B the point of observation, and there are a near infinite number of Cs that will turn into a single B when observed. That's linear time, which, from our current vantage point, seems to be immutable. The future is up in the air, but the past is fixed and gone.

Now these future humans apparently see time as another spatial axis. For them, time is nonlinear, at least up til their own personal B/Present (which is probably what they consider the 5th dimension). Now if they can see time as such, then obviously time itself has to be a nonlinear space to allow them to interact with it in the first place. Only our current perception of time makes it seem otherwise. For them, going back in the past and changing something is as easy as us walking around the block and putting down a few road cones to change traffic in the future

So for the future to exist, the future has to change the past to assure its own existence makes sense when you think of time as a space that can be traversed, rather than a line that's always moving forward. It happened because at some point something existed that could make it happen. It begets itself. Anything that can happen will happen and has happened.

It might take 10 billion years for a universe to evolve such a creature, but once it pops into existence, it's effectively existed since the beginning of time.

But what did you think of the movie!

Regarding your post, why would there be a need for the future to change the past to assure its own existence? They all ready exist. Is the implication that something that happens in their past could effect their present after their present all ready exists?

I found an article that calls what happens in Interstellar, a bootstrap paradox so maybe I was right. FAQ:Interstellar

Here is the answer I was seeking:

I don’t understand the ending. If “they” are descended from humans, and Cooper saves humanity, then how could “they” exist in the future if Cooper hasn’t saved humanity yet? Or, as Vulture put it, “you can’t travel back in time and engineer your own salvation.” Right?

A lot of science fiction, at least, would disagree with you. The ending of Interstellar seems to present a “bootstrap paradox.” In short, this is a type of time paradox in which a chicken sends an egg back in time, which egg then becomes that chicken. A popular example is The Terminator: In the first movie in the series, Kyle Reese is sent back in time by John Connor to protect Sarah Connor, John Connor’s mother. The paradox is that Reese turns out to be the father of John Connor—by sending Reese back in time, John Connor created himself. (Similarly, by going back in time to try to kill John Connor, Skynet leaves behind the advanced robotic parts that lead to the creation of Skynet.)

Star Trek NG Spoiler

My favorite bootstrap paradox is featured in the Startrek Next Generation series final "All Good Things" where Picard becomes aware he is shifting through time, where a temporal anomaly has been created and its effect is not moving forward but backwards in time, and if allowed to complete its course, will prevent the creation of life on Earth and we will cease to exist. So he goes on a quest to find this temporal anomaly and try to stop it. It leads to a bootstrap paradox with a fantastic twist!

I admit I was not familiar with a Tesseract but I've since read up on it.

More helpful links:
Does Interstellar Get The Science Right?


Also found this link regarding the the TV Show Continuum: Continuum and the bootstrap paradox I might have to check this out.

 

[Renzatic]

But what did you think of the movie!

Sorry, went all nerd for a sec there.

I thought it was pretty damn good. It's a little too slow and ponderous to be a popcorn flick, even with all the awesome special effects, but if you like grand adventure, it's worth a watch.

If I had to complain about anything, I'd say the whole love and drive of the human spirit thing was laid on a little too thick and suddenly. It should've been more of a show us, don't tell us thing, but they went in and both explained and debated love almost as breathlessly as the scientific mechanical actions of all the wonders being shown onscreen. A little subtlety here would've worked a lot better for the story as a whole.

Like Amelia and the pioneer on the third planet. If it actually showed how close they both apparently were at some point during the movie, or at least brought their relationship up and made it more of a thing she'd discuss with Coop or something, instead of just having her blurt out "HAY THAT GUY! I LLLURRRRVVEE HIMMMM WE SHOULD GO THERE CUZ LOVE IS A QUANTIFIABLE UNIVERSAL CONSTANT" when they're suddenly in a tight spot, it would've made a helluva lot more sense.

It hardly ruined the movie, but it could've been developed better, and it sure as hell shouldn't have been explained to us.

 

[sviato]

It was great, but not all parts. Felt a bit like a mix of Gravity and Inception and of course Nolan left the end up for question (whether Cooper finds Brand).

In the beginning of the movie, Cooper's father-in-law mentions that there are 6 billion people in the world. We're over 7 billion already though, so was he implying that so many people have died already or it's a factual mix-up?

 

[Huntn]

Sorry, went all nerd for a sec there.

I thought it was pretty damn good. It's a little too slow and ponderous to be a popcorn flick, even with all the awesome special effects, but if you like grand adventure, it's worth a watch.

If I had to complain about anything, I'd say the whole love and drive of the human spirit thing was laid on a little too thick and suddenly. It should've been more of a show us, don't tell us thing, but they went in and both explained and debated love almost as breathlessly as the scientific mechanical actions of all the wonders being shown onscreen. A little subtlety here would've worked a lot better for the story as a whole.

Like Amelia and the pioneer on the third planet. If it actually showed how close they both apparently were at some point during the movie, or at least brought their relationship up and made it more of a thing she'd discuss with Coop or something, instead of just having her blurt out "HAY THAT GUY! I LLLURRRRVVEE HIMMMM WE SHOULD GO THERE CUZ LOVE IS A QUANTIFIABLE UNIVERSAL CONSTANT" when they're suddenly in a tight spot, it would've made a helluva lot more sense.

It hardly ruined the movie, but it could've been developed better, and it sure as hell shouldn't have been explained to us.

I agree but the "love" message still effected me. �� They probably did not have enough time to show it properly or did not want it to become a smarmy, lovey-dovey story. So they explained it and revealed small parts of it such as Coop's grief over missing out on his daughter's life. In this monsterously large universe all we have that we feel makes a lasting difference is each other. It's like in It's A Wonderful Life that references wealth in terms of relationships.

 

[sviato]

*At a point 120 years from the beginning of the story, after Murphy has solved the gravity equation, is the human race moving to live on the planet Amelia has found herself on, the planet located through the worm hole, or are they just content to float around this solar system in large livable habitats? Not really addressed.

I was surprised no one went to find Amelia earlier. I thought it was the idea that humans can exist and colonize different world separately, instead of having everyone in one spot like they were on Earth. I do wish they showed/explained those space colonies a bit more so that we can understand why that was chosen as the solution.

Also why didn't Matt Damon say "hey there's nothing here, thanks for coming now let's get out of here" lol. I had a feeling something was up with him and knew for sure that there would be a fight when the two of them went on the walk - but I thought Cooper was going to try to kill Damon after finding out the info, not the other way around.

 

[Huntn]

It was great, but not all parts. Felt a bit like a mix of Gravity and Inception and of course Nolan left the end up for question (whether Cooper finds Brand).

In the beginning of the movie, Cooper's father-in-law mentions that there are 6 billion people in the world. We're over 7 billion already though, so was he implying that so many people have died already or it's a factual mix-up?

I believe there was some starving going on, but am not 100% sure.

----------

I was surprised no one went to find Amelia earlier. I thought it was the idea that humans can exist and colonize different world separately, instead of having everyone in one spot like they were on Earth. I do wish they showed/explained those space colonies a bit more so that we can understand why that was chosen as the solution.

Also why didn't Matt Damon say "hey there's nothing here, thanks for coming now let's get out of here" lol. I had a feeling something was up with him and knew for sure that there would be a fight when the two of them went on the walk - but I thought Cooper was going to try to kill Damon after finding out the info, not the other way around.

Dr. Mann explained why, as he was trying to eliminate Cooper, he wanted to be rescued instead of dying alone, so he lied about the data, chosing himself over the future of the human race. Not the first time Matt Damon has played a rat.

 

[ucfgrad93]

It was great, but not all parts. Felt a bit like a mix of Gravity and Inception and of course Nolan left the end up for question (whether Cooper finds Brand).

In the beginning of the movie, Cooper's father-in-law mentions that there are 6 billion people in the world. We're over 7 billion already though, so was he implying that so many people have died already or it's a factual mix-up?

I think he was implying that many have already died.

 

[Huntn]

Of interest is the morse code that pointed Cooper and Murph to the coordinates of the secret NASA base. This was sent by the future beings. To me, it's still a question of why did future humans who obviously survived into the future have to help their ancestrial selves? It's as if they knew that Cooper's participation was needed for success, almost a success that was all ready determined as long as they intervened. These things could be interpreted as not occurring by chance with help, but more like proficy or a time line requiring reinforcement. Bootstrap Paradox is the obvious answer, but is it the best answer?

 

[sviato]

Of interest is the morse code that pointed Cooper and Murph to the coordinates of the secret NASA base. This was sent by the future beings. To me, it's still a question of why did future humans who obviously survived into the future have to help their ancestrial selves? It's as if they knew that Cooper's participation was needed for success, almost a success that was all ready determined as long as they intervened. These things could be interpreted as not occurring by chance with help, but more like proficy or a time line requiring reinforcement. Bootstrap Paradox is the obvious answer, but is it the best answer?

It was binary, not morse. I thought that was sent by Cooper too, no ?

 

[Huntn]

It was binary, not morse. I thought that was sent by Cooper too, no ?

Actually you are right. It was Murph who thought it was morse, but it was Cooper who correctly identified it as binary. I remember seeing Cooper send the quantum data via the watch, but I dont remember seeing him purposely sending the binary for the base location, but this was when he was in the Tesseract, interacting with the wall of books, when the binary appeared in the sand, so maybe you are right. This is the circular and puzzling characteristic of time paradoxes.

 

[sviato]

Actually you are right. It was Murph who thought it was morse, but it was Cooper who correctly identified it as binary. I remember seeing Cooper send the quantum data via the watch, but I dont remember seeing him purposely sending the binary for the base location, but this was when he was in the Tesseract, interacting with the wall of books, when the binary appeared in the sand, so maybe you are right. This is the circular and puzzling characteristic of time paradoxes.

Assuming I'm correct about him putting out the binary as well, why do that and then give the message to "stay"?

Also I found it a little ridiculous that he finds NASA and right away they're like "ok you gotta pilot this thing"

 

[Huntn]

Assuming I'm correct about him putting out the binary as well, why do that and then give the message to "stay"?

Also I found it a little ridiculous that he finds NASA and right away they're like "ok you gotta pilot this thing"

A lot of things jumbled in there ( not by you).. Maybe the first part was when he was having misgivings about his chances and he did not feel that it was worth missing out on his childrens' lives? As far as NASA I think they were trying to illustrate a breakdown of society, authority, and government to some degree. I'd hate to see what the cities were like. Although if they needed a pilot, you might think they would have been knocking on his door unless they lost track of his where abouts, which if he is on the family farm, seems unlikely. Something's you gotta give a pass on some of the details.

 

[impulse462]

So, let me see if I have this straight. The beings of the 5th dimension (what was referred to as "they" by Cooper) were able to send messages to Cooper and Murph? But I thought Cooper sent those by himself. So Cooper sends these messages in order to save the human race (by entering the black hole)?

The 5th dimension beings view time not as a linear straight line, but as a whole dimension by itself. So they can view the past, present, future simultaneously. This allows them to send the wormhole in the first place. But if Cooper is the one who is able to save the human race, what is the relationship between Cooper and the 5th dimension beings? Is it because a 5th dimensional being can't interact with third dimension directly so they built a 3 dimensional space for cooper where he could use gravity to communicate with Murphy?

 

[Renzatic]

I agree but the "love" message still effected me. �� They probably did not have enough time to show it properly or did not want it to become a smarmy, lovey-dovey story. So they explained it and revealed small parts of it such as Coop's grief over missing out on his daughter's life. In this monsterously large universe all we have that we feel makes a lasting difference is each other. It's like in It's A Wonderful Life that references wealth in terms of relationships.

Yeah, I liked the message. The belief that humanity is an insignificantly small part of the universe, yet at the same time, slightly elevated and different from it. That our humanity makes us something far greater than the mere sum of our parts.

I just think it could've been a little less clinical about it. Some of the best scenes were in the beginning of the movie, when it showed the humanity of humanity in a more natural light. This is contrasted to the later scenes, where they spend way too much time explaining and dissecting it, rather than just showing it.

----------

But if Cooper is the one who is able to save the human race, what is the relationship between Cooper and the 5th dimension beings? Is it because a 5th dimensional being can't interact with third dimension directly so they built a 3 dimensional space for cooper where he could use gravity to communicate with Murphy?

I think it's because the 5th dimensional beings only provided the means, the tools, to help us, but it was ultimately up to us to save ourselves. They gave us the wormhole as a gateway to our new world, but we had to take the initiative to explore it. They gave Coop the tesseract to interact with the past, but he had to figure out what it was, and how to use it.

We saved ourselves. But we had a bit of "divine" intervention to help us along the way.

 

[Huntn]

So, let me see if I have this straight. The beings of the 5th dimension (what was referred to as "they" by Cooper) were able to send messages to Cooper and Murph? But I thought Cooper sent those by himself. So Cooper sends these messages in order to save the human race (by entering the black hole)?

The 5th dimension beings view time not as a linear straight line, but as a whole dimension by itself. So they can view the past, present, future simultaneously. This allows them to send the wormhole in the first place. But if Cooper is the one who is able to save the human race, what is the relationship between Cooper and the 5th dimension beings? Is it because a 5th dimensional being can't interact with third dimension directly so they built a 3 dimensional space for cooper where he could use gravity to communicate with Murphy?

Regarding the first part, Cooper sent some of the messages, but you can see the evolution is a circle.

Murphy gets messages from the future that tells them where the secret base is. As I recall Cooper was in the Tesseract at this time manipulating it, but I'm not sure who the base coordinates came from. If it came from him, then this is truly a chicken-egg time paradox. The quantum data definitely came from Cooper, so this is not so different than the mechanics of sending the base location no matter who it came from. In both cases info from the future change the actions of people in the past, altering the future, but acting more to reinforce the existing future, not changing it too much. How? I'm just spitballing as the phrase goes.

 

[dannyyankou]

Wow... I'm going to need some time to digest this.

 

[maxwelltech]

Watched the film today and absolutely loved it. Best film of the year so far in my opinion. Still trying to digest all the things of the movie though, might come back later

 

[dannyyankou]

It's one of those movies that gets better the more you think about it. Once you understand it, you can appreciate the genius of it. Definitely going to see this a second time (at least).

 

[Huntn]

It's one of those movies that gets better the more you think about it. Once you understand it, you can appreciate the genius of it. Definitely going to see this a second time (at least).

Talking my wife into seeing this would give me an excuse to revisit it in the theater and not wait months for the Bluray , but typically she's not keen on science fiction. It would be the characters that might draw her in.

 

[sviato]

RottenTomatoes rates Interstellar 73%, while rating the new show Gotham 89% - I definitely don't trust "critics" anymore.


edit: already talked to my friends about seeing it again

 

[dannyyankou]

This forum really needs a spoiler tag. There are questions I want to ask, but I can't ask them without giving anything away. I'll just look them up online.