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My run with Apple is dying a rapid death now, due to the issues involving security and lack of urgency on the issues that should be the number 1 priority. Apple has put themselves in a very bad place by ignoring many security flaws and issues with iOS and OSX for way too long now. I think they need to seriously make some big changes in the way they are operating things and prioritize security over all else.. Take some focus off "ease-of-use and convenience of accessing everything from everywhere on every device at anytime"
I mean, its just hard to understand why anyone would even consider enabling iCloud in this day and age... its almost like it was designed to accommodate hackers, crackers, and others sneaky indviduals, agencies, and organizations to have a one-stop shop for all of the data they could ever want about an individual. In the past year I have worked my way down to 1 iPhone,
from the 2 MBP's, 2 iPads, and 3 iPhones I had in my household.. Sold or traded them all!
PC's have found their way back in, and now they don't seem as bad as I once remembered..
Get your act Together Apple!!
 
And this "discussion" is why Apple needs to start being pro-active in addressing security issues. The folks over at 1Password are at least talking about it, but there's only so much they can do from the app side of things. This particular vulnerability (via WebSocket inter-process communication (IPC)), involved the malicious app attaching itself to the TCP port 1Password uses for communication between the browser extension and 1Password Mini. Connection to TCP ports and communication via those ports is overseen by the OS, which puts the ball in Apple's court.

So what say you Apple? Is this a serious threat or are we just all bloviating and getting ourselves all worked up over nothing? Or is watching your user base run in circles your favorite corporate game these days?

Nah, you're not looking broadly enough. I mean, sure, the apps run on OS X... but they use TCP/IP and internet ports! So... it's the internet people's fault! Let's blame the people who invented the internet! They made the ports that these apps use!

No wait... that's not broad enough either... let's blame the people who made the computer hardware! We must blame Intel!

No, wait... computers run on Electricity! Let's blame the power companies!

Wait... electricity comes from nuclear power, wind and water... Let's blame scientists!

No, wait... scientists are made of atoms... let's blame the Earth and the Universe!

Okay, on a serious note: This is not fixable by Apple. There's ALREADY a feature in OS X for secure inter-app communication: You create a file-based (instead of port-based) socket, and set access permissions on that file. But that doesn't work with Safari browser extensions; they need an internet port to talk to, so no, it's not possible to solve this.

As the lovely 1Password devs point out, it's impossible to implement two-way identification between the extension and 1Password mini. Any authentication scheme can be reverse engineered and used by the attacker too. The only way to do it is to pop up "Hey! The browser wants to talk to 1Password Mini! Allow it?" dialog boxes on *every* startup, but it would only offer a minor increase in security (since this is pretty much a non-issue anyway; 1Password was designed with possible impersonation in mind, and doesn't leak saved user-data), and it would annoy the heck out of users.

Alright, time to leave the thread soon. This horse has been beaten to death enough. ;-)
 
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Every time there's an article like this I always notice that none of this crap has happened to me. I happen to wonder if it's just something "discovered" because it never really makes news so much that these issues are widespread. I've been on Macs for more than 15 years and not once have I had a security breach.

Same here since 1984.

Just don't answer the Nigerian princess whose esteemed and honorable Reverend husband had an accident and left her helpless with 5 million dollars and all she can think of is to send it to you.

Lately I am getting bombarded with paypal account blocked or in danger of closing notices.
Not even correct e-mail addresses.
When you then read the header details : apal.com, bpal.com, cpal.com you know you are in for a long month/year:)

One piece of advice: NEVER click on any links or unrequested attachments in e-mails, even if you think or know they are from your bank, credit card company etc.

Just take the extra time and log in through their main website. Spoofing cites are done very very well these days.
 
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@Temptin No, @chrfr was simply right linking that AgileBits comment, it comes from the authors of 1Passsword and correctly targets one of the issues from that report. It also hints some mitigation steps. End of story.

Anyway your post 112 (as well as the previous 102) is more laughable than the originally reported issues. In short: there's nothing that guarantees you that even though the legit 1Password Mini helper is set to start automatically, the bogus one can't start even earlier since launchd services aren't guaranteed to start in some specific order (e.g. you can't reliably prevent the bogus one from starting earlier). Second, the bogus helper may be theoretically designed to operate as the legit one e.g. you would be still able to properly save new passwords as well as use all the saved ones etc. That might require more effort (and may be actually very difficult or nearly impossible), but simply claiming something and dismissing an issue without further analysis isn't the right approach especially when it comes to security.
 
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It's not inconceivable that this is patched in those updates too, as Apple does not preannounce security fixes. It's also conceivable that they make us wait until iOS 9 and OS X 10.11 for fixes.
Agreed, but I'm just looking at Apple's prior behavior. I think the faster this bad boy is fixed the better, so don't get me wrong :D
 
Can we at least wait to find out for sure if Apple did have six months to fix the flaw and if they did, hear a reason for it not being fixed before we all start appointing ourselves as armchair CEOs? I'm quick to point out Apple's shortcomings, but do any of you really believe they received a legitimate report of a security threat and just said, "f**k it, we're too busy with racially diverse emojis"?
 
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@mag01 It's possible to re-implement the entire GUI and unlock process in a pixel-perfect way, and make it ask for the master password in a believable way. It'd be a significant undertaking, but sure, it's doable. The same can be said of any other program on your system. I could make a malicious app that looks like iTunes and asks for your iTunes login details. Doesn't mean there is a flaw in iTunes. But there's no way such a developer of a malicious app would get a certificate from Apple, so their .app would be unsigned and thus declined from starting up by OS X's Gatekeeper. If someone browses to some crazy Chinese hacker website and downloads a malicious app, and then ignores the Gatekeeper warning and hits "Open" and runs the 1Password clone app, this is nothing more than a PEBKAC problem. ;) And it would be impossible to sneak such an app past Apple's review process, since they inspect the .nib (user interface) files and would instantly see the full evil GUI even if the program authors tried to hide it behind a normal-functioning app.

@Saucesome2000 I wouldn't even bet on them "fixing" it now, since it's not broken. There's no need to change *anything*. If they change things, it will be because of the media frenzy (as usual, blowing things out of proportion).

Post #102 - why the "keychain access problem" is not a problem at all, and why XARA (cross-app resource access) doesn't matter and doesn't compromise the security of 1Password, nor the system at large.

Post #112 - summary of the 1Password thread and why it has nothing to do with Keychain Access, and why the "1Password Mini impersonation" issue is bogus too.
 
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:D:D
Can we at least wait to find out for sure if Apple did have six months to fix the flaw and if they did, hear a reason for it not being fixed before we all start appointing ourselves as armchair CEOs? I'm quick to point out Apple's shortcomings, but do any of you really believe they received a legitimate report of a security threat and just said, "f**k it, we're too busy with racially diverse emojis"?

It wouldn't surprise me..
:D
 
Anyone have a link to the scanner tool mentioned in the full PDF? I didn't see anywhere to get the source and Google doesn't return anything useful.

@Temptin: didn't read all of your responses but your initial post only covered two of the four vectors outlined in the PDF. It seems that web socket and IPC attacks could be a serious issue for 1password. Not just for newly created entries but if you use the extension to log into existing sites (it has to pass the password in plaintext to Chrome/Safari). I agree this doesn't result in a full dump of your vault but it would expose anything you log into via the extensions. Still very bad.

@everyone who thinks six months is plenty of time: there are four vectors in play here and creating secure authenticated channels for each will also mean educating all of the app developers and probably updated versions of thousands of apps. I'm not surprised this isn't an overnight fix, we're not talking about a simple unchecked buffer size or such, we're talking about reengineering multiple communication methods between apps and system. Still a serious exploit and I'm not liking the possibility of waiting until fall for El Cap and iOS9. I won't be downloading any apps I'm not fully confident though (not that I do that anyway).
 
@mag01 It's possible to re-implement the entire GUI and unlock process in a pixel-perfect way, and make it ask for the master password in a believable way. It'd be a significant undertaking, but sure, it's doable. The same can be said of any other program on your system. I could make a malicious app that looks like iTunes and asks for your iTunes login details. Doesn't mean there is a flaw in iTunes. But there's no way such a developer of a malicious app would get a certificate from Apple, so their .app would be unsigned and thus declined from starting up by OS X's Gatekeeper. If someone browses to some crazy Chinese hacker website and downloads a malicious app, and then ignores the Gatekeeper warning and hits "Open" and runs the 1Password clone app, this is nothing more than a PEBKAC problem. ;)

Yet if they MiM via a highjacked Scheme or Web Sockets then there's no need to recreate the UI. Just monitor traffic back and forth and sniff all the passwords.

Not quoted here but you keep throwing out Keychain access, that's just one of the four outlined and not the issue for 1Password. I don't think anyone has tried to say it is so it comes off as you're using a straw man.
 
Maybe they are, maybe they aren't.

Remember the whole "nude pictures" thing from last year, where celebrity's iCloud passwords were allegedly "brute forced". Apple didn't really respond (i.e. "just ignored it"), but six months later, two-factor authentication rolls out for managing Apple IDs, and since then it's been implemented for iCloud restores and even logging into iCloud.com (in addition to them adding application-specific passwords for things like FaceTime and Messages).

IMO, that's a fairly substantial response on their part to an issue that they were made aware of, but "ignored" in terms of publicly reporting what they were doing to fix it, before that fix was ready.

So who knows what their plan is to fix this issue.

They really could be sitting on their ****s ignoring this issue completely. But from what I've seen in the past, they simply don't talk about major security fixes until they're ready to release. That doesn't have to mean that they're ignoring it. As for how long it's taking them to address this issue, if it's something deep down inside that's broken (which sounds like may be the case, this time), the fix really may be in the next version of the OS (i.e. 10.11 and iOS 9).

Two factor was in place already and option before that.
 
@thisisnotmyname I already covered that (proxying) too: If a malicious program uses port 6263, you would be UNABLE to log into existing sites. The extension would be talking to the fake "1Password mini impersonator" and the impersonator would not have any of your passwords, since it's not the real vault, which in turn means that your extension would be unable to retrieve the passwords of any websites. The real vault would still be locked. THAT is why the paper says "If you log into a NEW site, and tell the extension to SAVE the NEW password, we can intercept it"; because the "save this new password!" request would be sent to the fake 1Password Mini. But it won't affect any of your EXISTING data. As I pointed out in Post #112, they already designed 1Password with this exact kind of possible impersonation in mind, and your actual vault data is still safe. And you would *quickly* notice that your 1Password extension isn't able to log into any of your pre-existing sites anymore since it's talking to a fake (empty) impersonation vault.

The only way to actually steal *saved* logins is if they either impersonate the whole GUI (not gonna happen, see post #133), or if they created a proxy that sat between the browser extension and 1Password mini and read all the back/forth communication -- But such a proxy is impossible to create, since you can't bind multiple apps to the same TCP port, so it's impossible to "sit between" the two apps. That's why this "exploit" has to start *before* the real 1Password Mini, so that it can be the first to bind the port, since you can't have two apps on one TCP port.

The only thing they could conceivably do is install a packet capture driver (that's a root-level command and would require root access and a restart); which basically means a kernel extension that sits at the TCP/IP stack and observes all network traffic. Such a kernel extension would need to be signed by Apple for it to be loaded by the OS, and they're not going to give out a kernel extension certificate for that. ;)
 
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So,

Just so I can make sure I'm getting the gist of this:

A user must instal a malicious app, a trojan, which will likely require them to change the default system preference to allow an unsigned app to be installed. This will require them to go to System Preferences and change the security settings, requiring an Admin username and password.

Then, the user must also allow that app access to the keychain.

Then, the app creates a new keychain entry, but rather than it being an entry for it's own servers/services, it's an entry that will prompt a user to enter credentials for, FaceBook, DropBox, etc. Of course most users don't remember this info, that's why they keep it in the KeyChain in the first damn place, so they go through whatever process required to retrieve the credentials through the service in question, or turn off the Mac and do something else. Sooner or later, the user may actually find and reenter the login info.

The malicious app can then harvest that data.

ok.

Seems to be a Rube Goldberg approach to get credentials, when someone adept at social engineering could likely get more damaging info by making the right phone call or email to the right person?

Or am I misunderstanding a key step in the process?

Not saying it shouldn't be fixed by Apple ASAP. Just that it reads as an inefficient method compared to other phishing approaches already in use by crooks out there.

Agreed.

So if this were your home, then you will have to unlock your doors and then lead the crooks to you valuables and then help carry the loot to their car.

How can Apple really fix that?
 
My run with Apple is dying a rapid death now, due to the issues involving security and lack of urgency on the issues that should be the number 1 priority. Apple has put themselves in a very bad place by ignoring many security flaws and issues with iOS and OSX for way too long now. I think they need to seriously make some big changes in the way they are operating things and prioritize security over all else.. Take some focus off "ease-of-use and convenience of accessing everything from everywhere on every device at anytime"
I mean, its just hard to understand why anyone would even consider enabling iCloud in this day and age... its almost like it was designed to accommodate hackers, crackers, and others sneaky indviduals, agencies, and organizations to have a one-stop shop for all of the data they could ever want about an individual. In the past year I have worked my way down to 1 iPhone,
from the 2 MBP's, 2 iPads, and 3 iPhones I had in my household.. Sold or traded them all!
PC's have found their way back in, and now they don't seem as bad as I once remembered..
Get your act Together Apple!!
Good luck keeping your Windows machine safe :)
 
According to whom?

You have 30 seconds to create Netflix 2. Go!

Didn't do it? That should have been plenty of time. Not good ViktorEvil, not good :(

with the Billions of dollars Apple have in the bank, exploits such as this should be patched as soon as they are discovered and not 8+ months later
 
As the lovely 1Password devs point out, it's impossible to implement two-way identification between the extension and 1Password mini. Any authentication scheme can be reverse engineered and used by the attacker too. The only way to do it is to pop up "Hey! The browser wants to talk to 1Password Mini! Allow it?" dialog boxes on *every* startup, but it would only offer a minor increase in security (since this is pretty much a non-issue anyway; 1Password was designed with possible impersonation in mind, and doesn't leak saved user-data), and it would annoy the heck out of users.

Exactly! It's a security problem that results from 1Password's design decision, not an Apple security problem. 1Password is using a client-server design where both the client AND the server are running on the customer's machine and as a result, the client has no way to be 100% sure its talking to the real server.

The solution to 1Password's problem is to design your password service like Lastpass where your Safari extension talks to a server under the service provider's control. Your extension can be sure it's talking to the real server by verifying an SSL certificate or other public key cryptographic method that can't be reverse engineered. 1Password doesn't do this because their business model is selling downloadable software not selling a cloud-based subscription service like Lastpass.

There are pros and cons of apps instead of cloud password managers. One pro is that password information can (potentially) never leave the user's computer. A big con is that if your app consists of two separate pieces of software (like 1password's Safari extension + 1password mini), they can't mutually authenticate each other in a way that can't be reverse engineered.
 
The solution to 1Password's problem is to design your password service like Lastpass where your Safari extension talks to a server under the service provider's control.

So, to safeguard your passwords you should go with a service that transports them across the Internet to save them on their server? Sorry, but I want my passwords under my control on my computer. An IPC protocol, such as that used by 1Password, running on one platform should have rock-solid certainty, guaranteed by the OS, that a malicious third-party can't intercept that channel. Maybe something like an ACL control for TCP ports, or use some other IPC channel than ports. Regardless, the idea that the only safe way for getting your passwords to your browser is via a third-party server over the Internet doesn't fly for a lot of people.

As for Lastpass, didn't they just recently make the news?
 
The solution to 1Password's problem is to design your password service like Lastpass where your Safari extension talks to a server under the service provider's control.
Given that Lastpass just lost control of all user passwords, and given how unlikely a local compromise of 1Password is, I think I'll just continue to "take my chances" with 1Password.
 
@larrysalibra: LastPass is a fine design solution, and the cloud is a fine storage location for passwords as long as your master encryption password is ultra-secure. Heck, I'd happily ask the NSA to host my 1Password database, since my password is longer and more complex than anything they can crack in hundreds of trillions of years.

But LastPass suffers from its own flaws: Other extensions in the browser can read *any* passwords it injects into the website forms, since those extensions *also* have full rights to read the same forms and intercept them. Other apps can read the LastPass extension's binary password blob from the disk and guess various master passwords against it.

It'd actually be possible to secure 1Password Mini a little bit more against impersonation by having its own built-in private SSL certificate and using SSL locally on the machine. It would, however, be possible to search through the Mini app's code and eventually find the certificate key, so it wouldn't stop the most determined hackers. This is the problem jpgoldberg pointed out: Anything they do can be reverse-engineered, since whatever "secret method" they use will have to exist in Mini.app and would therefore be possible for a hacker to discover. So adding more local authentication schemes is a bad idea.

Adding "The extension wants to talk to 1Password mini. Allow it?" is also a bad idea and achieves almost nothing.

Remember that no matter what happens, an impersonator app would break the browser extension since the extension wouldn't be able to load any existing passwords (and the impersonation is thus easily discovered), and would only be able to save "new" passwords (which you normally don't do manually with 1Password; you use "Mini"'s password generator to fill the signup form, and since Mini would not be running, you wouldn't be able to do that and would notice that things were fishy).

As we discuss this, never forget that jpgoldberg is extremely intelligent and that they were designing this to be impersonation-resistant from day 1. That's why no existing data leaks if you impersonate 1Password Mini. They also made sure to authenticate the app connecting to 1Password Mini, so that a local rogue app can't just connect to the 6263 socket and request all the passwords. It has to come from their extension on a valid browser. It *even* validates the code signature on the browser to ensure that it's not talking to a hacked browser with memory logging or other evil stuff.

But... I think the real, true 31337 solution to 1Password's very minor issue is to do this:

<code>
1Password Mini.app
..on start
....if port 6263 in use
......display dialog "oh no! hackers are using the port! don't input any passwords on the web!"
</code>

Remember that Mini launches on every system startup and would detect if the TCP port was already bound. Therefore this is a flawless solution. ;)

Another solution: In the 1Password preferences, you could have a pane for dragging in a list of "allowed browser .apps", pre-populated with Safari and Chrome. As you drag apps in there, it modifies a OS X Keychain Access entry containing a random, mutual communication token, to allow those apps to access it. The extension (in the browser) then asks Keychain Access about the token, then connects to port 6263 locally, and asks Mini what its token is. If the token returned by "1Password Mini" matches what's in the Keychain, you can assume you are talking to the real Mini. If any other apps try to read the Keychain token, OS X will say "Do you want to allow app X to access token Y from the Keychain?", and would detect it. Funnily enough, this solution uses the exact feature of the OS X Keychain (multiple apps sharing access to a mutual secret) that's being used by the laughable "exploit" discussed by this news article. This is also why I don't think Apple is going to change the behavior of OS X Keychain - because there are too many legitimate uses for mutual app access to secrets; such as adding access to a password for both a main app and its helper app.
 
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Good luck keeping your Windows machine safe :)

Ha! Thanks.. Keeping any machine safe is becoming a pipe dream these days.
I just needed more flexibility in a machine for when things do go wrong, I struggled with these aspects on my MacBooks, being bolted together like a Fort Knox vault with 190 proprietary screws that can only be removed by the Genius Bar, or Chuck Norris and a SSD designed by an alien lifeform on a distant galaxy that is incompatible with anything on Earth.. amongst other things. :p
"Simpler is better.". somebody once said.
 
its actually not that hard.. Just ask BlackBerry.

disagree. hardly anyone tried to crack bbry. and they didn't have any app ecosystem to speak of. post-snowden is a whole new era, this is all doctoral candidates and researchers do nowadays: hole up in cs labs and drink mountain dew and try to crack security, noses in rabbit holes looking for zero-days. there is MUCH more firepower aimed at desktop and mobile security now -- as it should be -- this is what will make it all better. but the truth is i think apple cares very much about security, and theirs is quite good, but nothing is uncrackable given the resources applied, and often the zero-days that apple/everyone is alerted to require re-architecting to really fix; and i'll bet that's just what they are doing.
 
Umm... "... and can now be weaponized by attackers"?? Because the he has made the knowledge of the existence of flaws public? I hope the exact nature of the flaws has been made known to Apple and hope Apple has an official response to this.

Did you not read the article? They let Apple know and never heard back.
 
I'll give you a billion dollars if you can patch this problem by tomorrow. Go!

I think the point is that Apple does have people who should have been able to fix it within 6 months, or if they didn't, hire them and get them to fix it.

At least it isn't as bad as the last Minecraft server patch, where the guy who found the bug bugged Mojang for OVER TWO YEARS before he finally exposed it, and then they patched it. Sometimes, I guess you just gotta light a fire...
 
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I think it's time to go back to handwriting with onion ink or decoded alphabets and mailing things.
This modern communication business does not seem to be well thought out.
 
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