iPad example of poor USB2 performace, but Apple already has a better way.

PracticalMac

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Reports that many computers (Mac or PC) either cannot charge or charge iPad's at reduced rate.

Apple suggests use the included charger first, then sync up later, basically an extra step to get the most from iPad (yes, put it to sleep first for charge, but that still means 2 steps).

Then you upload those gigabytes of movies and TV shows (Yes, not everyone will do that all the time) and suffer 280 Mb/s transfers via USB 2 (EDIT: this is the average SUSTAINED transfer rate. Theoretical rate for USB is 480 Mb/s, which it cannot achieve due to packet overhead).


yet Apple has FireWire 800 that can do both faster.
Up to 1.5 Amps of power and around 770 Mb/s transfer, both nearly 3x faster then USB2.

Apple dropped FW 400 support in the G4 iPods due to "space issue".
Fine.
The iPad is MUCH, MUCH larger then iPods.

There is enough FW 800 support, especially in the Mac community, it's a non-issue to include FW800 in iPad.
 

eawmp1

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Feb 19, 2008
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There is enough FW 800 support, especially in the Mac community, it's a non-issue to include FW800 in iPad.
What rock have you been under? Apple dropped Firewire support for iPods years ago. Heck, they dropped it off the MacBook last year. Firewire is being phased out. And I'm sure Apple would like to sell iPads to the non-Mac community also.
 

PracticalMac

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What rock have you been under? Apple dropped Firewire support for iPods years ago. Heck, they dropped it off the MacBook last year. Firewire is being phased out. And I'm sure Apple would like to sell iPads to the non-Mac community also.
Open you eyes.

USB2 was never made to do what Apple uses it for.

USB3 is still months away (that is IF it becomes mainstream)

So why torture yourself?

I have FW on all my Mac's, its FASTER then USB2, MORE POWER then USB2.

...and it would cost a meer 2% of iPad to add. I would happily pay for better performance.
 

heavensblade23

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May 11, 2008
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In order to die FireWire would have to have lived at some point. The only time I've ever used FireWire was when I had a digital camcorder.
 

eawmp1

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Feb 19, 2008
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Open you eyes.

USB2 was never made to do what Apple uses it for.

USB3 is still months away (that is IF it becomes mainstream)

So why torture yourself?

I have FW on all my Mac's, its FASTER then USB2, MORE POWER then USB2.

...and it would cost a meer 2% cost of iPad to add. I would happily pay for better performance.
I have FW 800 on all my Macs also. I will miss it in the future.
Why do you think Apple would give YOU what you "would happily pay for"? You are the one tortured over this.
In Apple's strategic plan, FW is dead. Perhaps, like the elimination of the floppy drive, it was a bit premature. But here is no turning back.
 

PracticalMac

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In order to die FireWire would have to have lived at some point. The only time I've ever used FireWire was when I had a digital camcorder.
For Mac connectivity:
Target Disk Mode
Networking (as an alternative to regular Ethernet)
Connect directly to Cable TV box, stream unencoded content directly to your Mac (use Mac like TiVO).

peripherals:
DV camcorder
High end Digital cameras
External HDD
iSight
Scanners (Film and Flatbed)
iPod (G1 to G4)

There is more...
 

heavensblade23

macrumors regular
May 11, 2008
146
0
For Mac connectivity:
Target Disk Mode
Networking (as an alternative to regular Ethernet)
Connect directly to Cable TV box, stream unencoded content directly to your Mac (use Mac like TiVO).

peripherals:
DV camcorder
High end Digital cameras
External HDD
iSight
Scanners (Film and Flatbed)
iPod (G1 to G4)

There is more...
It was in competition with USB which was ubiquitous.
 

Jakeoster

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Mar 12, 2010
154
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Open you eyes.

USB2 was never made to do what Apple uses it for.

USB3 is still months away (that is IF it becomes mainstream)
Yeah ok...IF USB 3.0 becomes mainstream?! When has FireWire been anymore than Marginally better than USB?

FireWire is a gimmick. You can say all you want but that is the truth. The only time Ive used it was because my camcorder required it and the damn cable cost me like $40 bucks. Not to mention that I noticed no whooping speed advantage.

Just plug it into the wall. Not a big deal.

Sent from my iPad
 

PracticalMac

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I have FW 800 on all my Macs also. I will miss it in the future.
Why do you think Apple would give YOU what you "would happily pay for"? You are the one tortured over this.
In Apple's strategic plan, FW is dead. Perhaps, like the elimination of the floppy drive, it was a bit premature. But here is no turning back.
It's simple, without FW I might as well by a PC.

I buy Mac's becuase of performance advantages.

If Mac's had USB 3 I would likely not fret about FW 800.


As for Floppy, at the time we had ZIP drives, CD-R, MO (250MB), and others.
Floppy was slow, tiny, and 16 years old.
It was the smartest thing Jobs ever did to kill the floppy.
 

Mactagonist

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Feb 5, 2008
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Open you eyes.

USB2 was never made to do what Apple uses it for.

USB3 is still months away (that is IF it becomes mainstream)

So why torture yourself?

I have FW on all my Mac's, its FASTER then USB2, MORE POWER then USB2.

...and it would cost a meer 2% of iPad to add. I would happily pay for better performance.
If you were apples only customer this might be relevant. FW is a niche product at this point. USB will have to make do until LP is finalized and available.
 

PracticalMac

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Yeah ok...IF USB 3.0 becomes mainstream?! When has FireWire been anymore than Marginally better than USB?

FireWire is a gimmick. You can say all you want but that is the truth. The only time Ive used it was because my camcorder required it and the damn cable cost me like $40 bucks. Not to mention that I noticed no whooping speed advantage.

Just plug it into the wall. Not a big deal.

Sent from my iPad
Look I am NOT knocking iPad, which you apparently thought I did.

I am knocking USB2.
It is simply at the limits of what it can do, Apple is admittedly breaking the USB standards to do what it does for MBAir and iPad.

Install COMBINED USB2 and FireWire800 in iPad and iPad will be much better for all of us.

I have external HDD and from experience see the performance difference between FW and USB. It sounds like you tried it once.

PS: USB3, Intel decided to delay USB3 till 2011 in all its MB's. Meanwhile we may have LightPeak, and Apply may decide to go with that system. Who knows.
 

calderone

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Aug 28, 2009
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Propaganda.

In any speed test of FW400 vs USB2, FW400 equaled or beat it (except for files <500kb).

http://www.cwol.com/firewire/firewire-vs-usb.htm

Edit:
USB2 sustained transfer is about 280Mb/s +/- 30
It is not, propaganda. The maximum rate for USB 2.0 is 480Mbps. It cannot sustain that rate like Firewire can, as your edit suggests. I am surprised you didn't remove the "Propaganda" in light of your edit.

The fact is, it is cheaper to build if they exclude Firewire, and since the majority of users buying iPods, iPads, etc are PC users it does not make financial sense to include Firewire. End of story.
 

Jakeoster

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Mar 12, 2010
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Look I am NOT knocking iPad, which you apparently thought I did.
I know your not, I'm knocking FireWire. The sooner Apple ditches this proprietary standard the better. It is also nieve to believe that USB 3.0 won't catch on as it is an industry standard. USB 2.0 sure has faired well. Also I think I've uploaded more than one video using it. I actually researched buying a FireWire enabled external hard drive and found the consensus was that it was only marginally better than USB 2.0.
 

mcnicks

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Jan 8, 2006
158
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Let's not forget FireWire's isochronous mode, which is ace for audio / video transfer. The USB approach seems to be "we will make it faster" by providing more and more bandwidth, but bandwidth itself is no guarantee of packet delivery.
 

calderone

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Aug 28, 2009
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I know your not, I'm knocking FireWire. The sooner Apple ditches this proprietary standard the better. It is also nieve to believe that USB 3.0 won't catch on as it is an industry standard. USB 2.0 sure has faired well. Also I think I've uploaded more than one video using it. I actually researched buying a FireWire enabled external hard drive and found the consensus was that it was only marginally better than USB 2.0.
Really? Marginally? What did you search LiveJournal for your research? And were you looking at Firewire 800 or 400?
 

jmpage2

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Sep 14, 2007
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Look I am NOT knocking iPad, which you apparently thought I did.

I am knocking USB2.
It is simply at the limits of what it can do, Apple is admittedly breaking the USB standards to do what it does for MBAir and iPad.

Install COMBINED USB2 and FireWire800 in iPad and iPad will be much better for all of us.

I have external HDD and from experience see the performance difference between FW and USB. It sounds like you tried it once.

PS: USB3, Intel decided to delay USB3 till 2011 in all its MB's. Meanwhile we may have LightPeak, and Apply may decide to go with that system. Who knows.
You seem to be arguing that Apple resurrect dead firewire technology. This is simply foolish. Apple looks forward, not backwards.
 

PracticalMac

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Jan 22, 2009
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It is not, propaganda. The maximum rate for USB 2.0 is 480Mbps. It cannot sustain that rate like Firewire can, as your edit suggests. I am surprised you didn't remove the "Propaganda" in light of your edit.

The fact is, it is cheaper to build if they exclude Firewire, and since the majority of users buying iPods, iPads, etc are PC users it does not make financial sense to include Firewire. End of story.
In the OP, I did not state max. possible, just he average speed.

Theoretical and Actual are as different as light and day.

I could have been more clear on my post (and I just did), but my post is correct.
 

troop231

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Jan 20, 2010
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USB 3.0 has been here for a few months, its already in awesome motherboards and rolling out in external hard drives at OWC mercury soon. So why not put it in the iPad? It's backwards compatible
 

PracticalMac

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I know your not, I'm knocking FireWire. The sooner Apple ditches this proprietary standard the better. It is also nieve to believe that USB 3.0 won't catch on as it is an industry standard. USB 2.0 sure has faired well. Also I think I've uploaded more than one video using it. I actually researched buying a FireWire enabled external hard drive and found the consensus was that it was only marginally better than USB 2.0.
That is geek level comedy!

FireWire is under the authority of the IEEE, an INDUSTRY WIDE standards organization, with Apple the leader for the 1394 standard.
Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers or IEEE (read eye-triple-ee) is an international non-profit, professional organization for the advancement of technology related to electricity. It has the most members of any technical professional organization in the world, with more than 395,000 members in around 150 countries.
USB is 100% proprietary under the control of Intel.


Definition of "Standard": commonly used or supplied
If you go to Best Buy or Frys, how many computers have USB 3?

Now, How many computers have 1394/FireWire/iLINK in that same store?

FireWire **IS** a Standard. USB3 is not (as of this post, likely till 2011).

And no, USB2 is not upward compatible to USB3.
 

calderone

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Aug 28, 2009
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Seattle
In the OP, I did not state max. possible, just he average speed.

Theoretical and Actual are as different as light and day.

I could have been more clear on my post (and I just did), but my post is correct.
Theoretical and Actual are not necessarily light and day, consider your precious Firewire, which performs very close to its actual.

A more clear way to state is that in the case of USB the theoretical speed and actual speed are light and day.

And you may be correct, calling out a fact as propaganda to only later correct your post is not "correct."

Read my post above as to why you will never get Firewire back in iProds, unless of course Firewire becomes more ubiquitous.