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George Knighton

macrumors 65816
Oct 13, 2010
1,391
346
I don't understand this way of thinking.

Apple introduces a device that fundamentally moves the computing paradigm into a totally new level. Customers adopt this new device and paradigm in huge numbers.

And you want to drag us back into the world of hierarchical file folders? Madness.

Maybe. But you know how control freaks get. :)
 

Ava's Meeshee

macrumors member
Jan 7, 2010
84
0
There is absolutely NOTHING "intuitive" about using iTunes to add/delete files from the iPad's various apps. Its the most amateurish effort I've ever seen on any device, pre- or post- PC world notwithstanding. A full year after its introduction and there has been virtually zero work done to make it more intuitive.

You can use gestures to "drag and drop" entire video's from the iPad using Airplay, but for some reason, you can't do the same to drag and drop a file from your Mac over to your iPad? Seriously.....they have the paradigm already in place. Why not make use of it?

The point is not to worry about managing files at all. File management is probably the main legacy PC quagmire that the iPad as a "post-PC" device is supposed to remedy.
 

blackNBUK

macrumors 6502a
Feb 19, 2010
607
35
UK
One practical problem in introducing a file system now is that Apps have been designed with the assumption that they have complete ownership of their data. They can store it in whatever format is convenient and only convert it into a standard format when sending the file to another App.

Pages might be an example of this; Pages documents are actually zip files that contain an XML document for the content, whatever resources are needed and a preview PDF. It would be more efficient for Pages to edit the document in it's expanded format and only create the PDF and zip everything up when the document is exported. Does anybody who's jailbroken what to have a look inside and see if this guess is right?
 

Greg M

macrumors 6502
Jul 13, 2008
341
35
You are thinking in a "PC" way. You have to change your thinking. The iPad is a post-PC device. File systems are sooo 1986. Welcome to the 21st century.

Drink some more Jobs kool-aid. The iPad isn't a post pc device, that's just dumb. Jobby might want you to think that to justify some of the things that they're doing but to say it's a post pc device is a major stretch.

If it's post pc then how come you have to have a pc in order to be able to use it? If anything it's a peripheral device for the pc or an extension of the pc.

Stop letting Jobby tell you what to think and start thinking for yourself!!!
 

jclardy

macrumors 601
Oct 6, 2008
4,138
4,319
The point is not to worry about managing files at all. File management is probably the main legacy PC quagmire that the iPad as a "post-PC" device is supposed to remedy.

I can understand that, but the iPad's current method fails. Why?

Open a file in an app like GoodReader to view, decide you want to edit it, open it in another app and edit. That app doesn't have all the editing features you need, open it in another app and edit again.

Now you magically have 3 versions of the same file, all with different content, spread across three apps.

Looking at what Apple is doing with Versions in OS X Lion I would say they are going to remedy this in some form iOS 5.

The other issue is email attachements. Writing an email to a friend and realize you need to attach a pages document? Now you have to quit and open pages, find the document, hit the email button and paste your email in. Also, need to upload a file to a website in a web browser? Can't do it unless there is an app for that website.

And lastly, the most unintuitive thing about the iPad is moving files on and off via iTunes. I would guess 75% of people with an iPad don't even know it is there because you have to go into the apps page in iTunes then scroll down to even see it.
 

kultschar

macrumors 6502a
Mar 26, 2010
811
78
Read the bottom of the Lion Preview on Apples website

Allowing wifi syncs and access via ipads to your macs to share files is coming.

I think we will see some kind of simplified file system on ios devices soon!!!
 

goMac

Contributor
Apr 15, 2004
7,662
1,693
No. Why? Lion is moving away from file systems.

Why do you even need a file system?
 

kultschar

macrumors 6502a
Mar 26, 2010
811
78
No. Why? Lion is moving away from file systems.

Why do you even need a file system?

Would be nice to have a download folder, doc folder etc and able to sync to your Mac.

This looks like what Lion will enable you to do (Lion is moving away from file systems, far from it.)

From the Apple Lion webpage....

File Sharing for iPad
Lion Server delivers wireless file sharing for iPad. Enabling WebDAV in Lion Server gives iPad users the ability to access, copy, and share documents on the server from applications such as Keynote, Numbers, and Pages.


PS - Lion Server is part of Lion now (not a seperate OS)
 

goMac

Contributor
Apr 15, 2004
7,662
1,693
Would be nice to have a download folder, doc folder etc and able to sync to your Mac.

This looks like what Lion will enable you to do (Lion is moving away from file systems, far from it.)

From the Apple Lion webpage....

File Sharing for iPad
Lion Server delivers wireless file sharing for iPad. Enabling WebDAV in Lion Server gives iPad users the ability to access, copy, and share documents on the server from applications such as Keynote, Numbers, and Pages.

Which, if you you've used File Sharing for iPad, doesn't work at all like a file system.

And yes, if you've used Lion, you'll note while you can still get to the file system, Finder does not default to showing you a file system.

And I have it on pretty good authority Lion Server, after beta, will be a separate purchase.
 

Carouser

macrumors 65816
Feb 1, 2010
1,411
1
I have no doubt that future iOS versions will have new ways to interact with content. As a result, some people will say 'see, this is the filesystem the iPad needs'. Others will say 'see, the iPad didn't need a filesystem at all, this way is better.' Fortunately, both groups will be drowned out by the usual rabble who will come up with something else that Apple did wrong again.

Besides, most people use 'filesystem' to mean 'GUI that makes me think there's actually little tiny documents inside my device that get moved around and when I don't see this filesystem those little documents are still there somehow and I need to get at them'. This is ridiculous, btw.
 

kultschar

macrumors 6502a
Mar 26, 2010
811
78
Which, if you you've used File Sharing for iPad, doesn't work at all like a file system.

How does it work, I have no access to the beta due to my crap download restrictions. I imagined the iPad side of it would not be active yet until we get a ios update for it? No?


And I have it on pretty good authority Lion Server, after beta, will be a separate purchase.

Really?? Doesnt sound like it to me from the Apple text

Lion Server is now part of Mac OS X Lion. It’s easy to set up your Mac as a server and take advantage of the many services Lion Server has to offer.
 

goMac

Contributor
Apr 15, 2004
7,662
1,693
How does it work, I have no access to the beta due to my crap download restrictions. I imagined the iPad side of it would not be active yet until we get a ios update for it? No?

Just shows a list of documents, very similar to what it currently does. No file system.


Really?? Doesnt sound like it to me from the Apple text

Although it's on the disk, it will require a separate serial number. You'll likely be able to purchase the serial online.
 

porcupine8

macrumors 6502a
Mar 2, 2011
844
5
Apple has (to my personal annoyance) been moving away from a traditional file system for a long time. The last several versions of OS X have been trying to make it harder to save files in a hierarchically-structured file system and easier to not care where you save them and find them via Spotlight instead. It's not surprising that iOS would take this to the next level with no file system at all, and I would be very surprised if they moved back in that direction, either on OS X or iOS. (Unfortunately, since I like my hierarchically-structured files, TYVM.)
 

goMac

Contributor
Apr 15, 2004
7,662
1,693
Apple has (to my personal annoyance) been moving away from a traditional file system for a long time. The last several versions of OS X have been trying to make it harder to save files in a hierarchically-structured file system and easier to not care where you save them and find them via Spotlight instead. It's not surprising that iOS would take this to the next level with no file system at all, and I would be very surprised if they moved back in that direction, either on OS X or iOS. (Unfortunately, since I like my hierarchically-structured files, TYVM.)

This is exactly what Lion does by default. Your "Documents" is now a Spotlight generated list, etc...

The folders are still there, but they got sent to the bottom of the Finder sidebar.
 

kultschar

macrumors 6502a
Mar 26, 2010
811
78
Apple has (to my personal annoyance) been moving away from a traditional file system for a long time. The last several versions of OS X have been trying to make it harder to save files in a hierarchically-structured file system and easier to not care where you save them and find them via Spotlight instead. It's not surprising that iOS would take this to the next level with no file system at all, and I would be very surprised if they moved back in that direction, either on OS X or iOS. (Unfortunately, since I like my hierarchically-structured files, TYVM.)

Hmm if thats the case then its a strange direction Apple seem to be heading in then for their desktop products and seem to be aiming more at the family user and away from business.

I was hoping the Mail app would be improved in Lion but seems by default it is configured in a basic ipad way. I was actually hoping mail would close the gap on outlook and have more options etc
 

sulliweb

macrumors 6502
Mar 13, 2011
250
8
Ok, can we just forget file systems for a second. The file system serves a purpose, file management. I want an easy way to search, sift, and or browse through the files on any device I have. If that requires a file system, that's fine with me. If Apple can do it without one, that's ok too.

I don't use a Mac, so I have no idea what OS X does, and given that even Apple has admitted that they lost the PC wars, I'd say that saying that we should follow their lead in that regard is a bit of a joke anyways.

Though, I really do like iOS. My problem is the same as someone else has stated. I've got different versions of files in all sorts of apps and no way to consolidate and search, sift, and/or browse through them. If you do any real word processing, this will be a major issue for you because Apple's solution so far just doesn't work. If you're fine with what they have, that's ok too...

I think the real reason that they're shying away from it is the whole sandbox approach. No app really touches another app or the OS itself. That provides a lot of protection from viruses, etc. They open up a common space, and who knows what could happen...

This isn't about trying to be PC or Post-PC... Though, given the iPad is a Personal Computing device which just happens to be what PC stands for, and the fact that so many people love to use the iPad to say that Apple is now the largest PC manufacturer... I don't know. I have a hard time buying that statement. Like everything else with Apple, the price is just a little too high for me. :)

Just my two cents.
 

Ava's Meeshee

macrumors member
Jan 7, 2010
84
0
Hmm if thats the case then its a strange direction Apple seem to be heading in then for their desktop products and seem to be aiming more at the family user and away from business.

How is abandoning hierarchical folder file management unfriendly to business? It intuitively seems like an organized & efficient way to manage your content, especially because it mimics paper file systems, but it's not necessarily the best way just because that's what we all grew up on and are used to.
 

balamw

Moderator emeritus
Aug 16, 2005
19,366
979
New England
The last several versions of OS X have been trying to make it harder to save files in a hierarchically-structured file system and easier to not care where you save them and find them via Spotlight instead.
FWIW Microsoft is doing some of the same. In W7, the default "My Documents" folder is replaced with a "library" which can include files consolidated from many different locations. the actual location is irrelevant/hidden.

B
 

smiddlehurst

macrumors 65816
Jun 5, 2007
1,228
30
My bet: iOS 5 will include a version of AirDrop and the same management system iTunes on the desktop uses to move files to applications. You'll (likely) never see a traditional file manager on iOS though, it's just not something Apple want to introduce to a device that's trying to get away from the old abstraction models.
 

dmaul1114

macrumors 6502
Mar 12, 2011
469
0
I'd love a file system personally, being a PC guy. Just what I'm used too.

But it will never happen. I'll probably eventually move on to whatever tablet/tablet OS MS comes out with in 2012 or whenever assuming it turns out ok as I need a file systems and a full tablet version of MS Office that's 100% compatible with the desktop versions. I really want a tablet that will truly allow me to leave my laptop behind on business trips, and that's what it would take for me to do that.
 

ZilogZ80

macrumors 6502a
Aug 5, 2010
551
0
How is abandoning hierarchical folder file management unfriendly to business? It intuitively seems like an organized & efficient way to manage your content, especially because it mimics paper file systems, but it's not necessarily the best way just because that's what we all grew up on and are used to.
Agreed - let's wait & see what they come up with before passing judgment. One of the handiest aspects of OSX, compared to say Windows XP, is that there is a search box (which works instantly) right at the top of every "open dialog". I don't have to laboriously navigate to - or even remember where I put - the file I need. Just begin typing it's name and - BANG - there it is!
 

h00ligan

macrumors 68040
Apr 10, 2003
3,027
136
London
I'm going to piggy back a little here (sorry).

I think they have addressed some issues..however one niggle remaining is attaching files in forums or web uploading.

I know icab can technically do it, but it seems very hit and miss, for example rying to upload an image attached to this post..just spins and spins.

I can click the button, select the image, but it then prompts me to select a file to upload. Icab is the only browser out of safari, atomic, perfect, icab that even attempts it. Iirc. The rest show unselectable browse buttons. I'll have to try safari again.

Anyone have a solution for that which doesn't involve drop boxing the file, or putting it on flickr (which works horribly with iPad now)?
 
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anjinha

macrumors 604
Oct 21, 2006
7,324
205
San Francisco, CA
I really don't see the need for a file system. On my Documents folder on my Mac I have alias to folders on my iDisk. Every single document I use on my Mac is saved on those folders, therefore they're automatically uploaded to my iDisk.

On the iPad I use iFiles to access iDisk. Every single file that I might need to open on my iPad is on my iDisk, therefore on iFiles. When I want to open something I just open iFiles (like I would open the Finder on my Mac), look for the file I want and select "open in..." the respective application.

I don't feel that I'm missing out on anything.
 

h00ligan

macrumors 68040
Apr 10, 2003
3,027
136
London
You're missing your annual fee for .Mac in your wallet :) though dropbox could get it done for most. I think I have five gigs free there right now.
 
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