iPad to (referenced library) Mac with Photos, WITHOUT iCloud?

[mattspace]

This is more of a "can it be done" question...

Can you ingest photos into the iPad version of Photos, say from a DSLR, do selects, non-destructive versioned edits etc, and then move them, including the edits & versions from the iPad to a Mac, using a referenced library?

This has to be offline, over a wire - no cloud syncing, and no using a managed library on the mac - the original photos have to be in a standard directory structure.

 

[Ray2]

I don’t use Photos other than for a handful of synced albums. So no idea about the edit side. You can import from a camera (I use a card reader, but Lightroom picks up my camera when attached so that should work as well.) On the connectivity side, you do not need the cloud to move images from the iPad to a Mac referenced library via Image Capture. You can direct the iPad resident images to whatever folder/directory you want.

 

[Slartibart]

then move them, including the edits & versions from the iPad to a Mac, using a referenced library?

What do you mean by that… how to "move" to a "reference"? What have you tried so far?

 

[mattspace]

What do you mean by that… how to "move" to a "reference"? What have you tried so far?

As in if they're on the iPad, in the Photos app, I want to move the files to Photos on the Mac, along with the edit information made on the iPad, but I don't want the files stored on the Mac inside the Photos.app managed library, I want them stored on disk in date-hierarchical sub-folders, and accessed as referenced files within Photos.

So Can Photos on the Mac import from an iPad's photo library, but store the images as Referenced images (I believe it can with a normal camera / card import), and can it do that when it's importing photos that have non-destructive versioned edits etc.

Does transferring the edit states preclude the use of a referenced library... I know referenced libraries don't work properly with iCloud library, but that's no loss to me, because i'm looking for offline solutions.

I haven't tried any of this, I'm just looking for ideas as to whether something is possible, or if anyone has tried it.

 

[mattspace]

On the connectivity side, you do not need the cloud to move images from the iPad to a Mac referenced library via Image Capture. You can direct the iPad resident images to whatever folder/directory you want.

Yeah, the critical thing is when you import with image capture, does it bring the photos.app non-destructive edits for raw files with it - cropping, colour adjustment etc. Does it import the RAW file to disk, then the edit info to Photos (Mac).

 

[Slartibart]

As in if they're on the iPad, in the Photos app, I want to move the files to Photos on the Mac, along with the edit information made on the iPad, but I don't want the files stored on the Mac inside the Photos.app managed library, I want them stored on disk in date-hierarchical sub-folders, and accessed as referenced files within Photos.

Is there any reason why you want to use the Photos app on either side in the first place? Besides convenience?

You could use RAWPower and manage your images completely in Apple Files (creating the folder structure you want/mirror to the Mac).
RAWPower on iOS provides Copy to RAW Power - an extension added to RAW Power 3.0 for iOS. It works by integrating with the Share menu in iOS apps. If you use that extension to share an image to RAW Power, then that image will be saved in the Files.app storage container for RAW Power (not in the Photos library). If you share a single image, then RAW Power will open that image into the RAW Power editor. If you share multiple images, then the app will display the thumbnail grid.

So Can Photos on the Mac import from an iPad's photo library, but store the images as Referenced images (I believe it can with a normal camera / card import), and can it do that when it's importing photos that have non-destructive versioned edits etc.

Due to the fact that you can have all images and edits reside in Apple’s Files storage container you can just copy it to e.g. an external SSD and use that to transfer them and their folder structure to the Mac.

I highly recommend to use FileBrowser Pro to copy the files from the iPad to the external storage. Apple’s Files app is prone to introduce errors into file systems which can result in damage files. File Browser additionally allows to share files and folders from the Apple Files storage container and/or connect from the iPad to a shared folder on the Mac when you connect both devices by ethernet cable or per Bluetooth or WiFi.

Because RAWPower runs on MacOS too you might be able to use the the non-destructive edits you transferred. You have to check for yourself - RAWPower offers a free trial - or you check with Nik Bhatt its programmer. He is really, really helpful.

Does transferring the edit states preclude the use of a referenced library... I know referenced libraries don't work properly with iCloud library, but that's no loss to me, because i'm looking for offline solutions.

A Photos based solution will probably not work - that is because, when you adjust e.g. a RAW image on iOS and save it back to the system photo library, the editing app provides iOS with a full-size JPEG. By doing this, other apps can use the adjusted image without knowing how it was made.

I haven't tried any of this, I'm just looking for ideas as to whether something is possible, or if anyone has tried it.

Pixelmator Photo together with Pixelmator Pro might offer a similar solution. Pixelmator Photo allows to edit, save (incl. the non-dwstructive edits) and manage images within the Files storage container too. No clue wether Pixelmator Pro on the Mac side can use these in a meaningfull way though.

That is one of the main problems - wether for RAWPower or the PP-combo - meaningfull use of the non-destructive edits with out automatic sync within the designed environment.
As far as I know it does work only via the frameworks Apple provides - and the iPad side sets the limits here.

Yes, you can e.g. easily export, copy, import presets or LUTs into RAWPower between iPad and Mac - but the whole scenario seems filled with tedious manual tasks, impacted by e.g. the file system restrictions on iPadOS (for example if you use a dual USB-Stick to transfer your images from the iPad, iPadOS doesn’t offer a function to check how much space is available on it nor does the copy function. iPadOS will start copying and if it runs out of space on the target it throws an error. Might be improved in iPadOS 16 😎).

IMHO the whole thing you want to implement seems like it will be at least a master class in staying concentrated regarding the workflow (default target is the Photos library… a moment of lack of concentration and you might work with and on files in it again 😃) and live with some - maybe even tedious - workarounds - but it might be acchievable. 😀



nota bene: I do almost all developing and editing of the RAWs I take on iPPs.
And the functionality provided by the current available apps does what I need for my semi- and professional photos (the latter being stitched, focus stacked or other forms of micrographs).

And it can even be fun to do cross platform edits and management when you embrace the functionality provided by the systems.

Working with files with in the iPadOS Files storage container is not. Even if FileBrowser Professional keeps you largely covered.

 

[mattspace]

Is there any reason why you want to use the Photos app on either side in the first place? Besides convenience?

Photos is on the iPad, and on the Mac, and can sync stuff back & forth via iTunes / Post-Catalina Finder?

Basically, I wanted a solution that could do RAW versioned edits on iOS, and honour those RAW versioned edits on the Mac - ie not generating intermediate flattened files going between apps etc, and could be a central repository for all photography, but without requiring the images to be stored within an inaccessible bundle / library - hence the referenced stipulation.

I've moved to Capture One for Mac-editing of DSLR images, but the central repository of all images, which I use for basic life timeline... I'm going to need a replacement for Aperture (which does everything I want, but whose image editing and OS compatibility is showing its age) eventually. It's not Capture One, because it can't import directly from iOS devices.

Image Capture only does the ingest to disk step, then you have to import to the catalogue of whatever app you're using. It is supposed to have an auto-ingest feature that copies files from a set device to a set location automatically upon plugging it in, but it's been broken for iOS devices for years.

You could use RAWPower and manage your images completely in Apple Files (creating the folder structure you want/mirror to the Mac).

I've looked at Raw Power periodically, and chatted to Nik about where my photography, processing and library management needs lie - the Mac App (not the sharing extension) version not supporting smart folders beyond the Photos.app defaults kindof puts it out of the running for me as a universal solution.

A Photos based solution will probably not work - that is because, when you adjust e.g. a RAW image on iOS and save it back to the system photo library, the editing app provides iOS with a full-size JPEG. By doing this, other apps can use the adjusted image without knowing how it was made.

Ahh, OK, I was under the impression that if you were just editing RAW images within Photos, it kept them as just versioned data modifications, rather than flattening out JPEGS, unless you tried to transfer the edit to another app.

That is one of the main problems - wether for RAWPower or the PP-combo - meaningfull use of the non-destructive edits with out automatic sync within the designed environment.

I guess my envisaged on-the-go workflow was:

1. Ingest from camera to iPad Photo Roll / Photos.app
2. Do Selects, basic edits etc.
3. Connect to Mac, Sync in Mac Photos.app
   1. Mac Photos.app transfers images to Mac Photos app, which stores the images on disk in the referenced folder structure.
   2. Mac Photos.app transfers the metadata for the non-destructive edit versioning to itself.
   3. Mac Photos.app does the Sharing With Other Applications XML & Preview scaling.
   4. Mac Photos.app deletes the images off the iPad's Camera Roll
4. iTunes / Finder Sync of iPad
   1. iTunes / Finder syncs back the reduced size Preview versions of chosen images to the iPad's onboard Photo albums.

IMHO the whole thing you want to implement seems like it will be at least a master class in staying concentrated regarding the workflow (default target is the Photos library… a moment of lack of concentration and you might work with and on files in it again 😃) and live with some - maybe even tedious - workarounds - but it might be acchievable. 😀

I'm actually starting to think more and more about not having a DAM at all on the Mac, at least for managing the iOS device images.

I could, for example do something like the following:

1. Shoot on iOS Device
2. Connect to Mac
3. Ingest with Image Capture to my existing camera-specific directories.
4. Use Smart Folders on the Image Library drive to filter for all images, camera specific searches, tags, etc - basically everything a DAM would do in terms of viewing images
5. Add folder actions / hazel workflows to the iOS device specific folders, that create optimised preview versions of all images (in all subfolders) added to the folders, which are saved out to a separate "Optimised" folder.
   1. Sync that image folder back to the iOS device with iTunes / Finder.
6. Use Capture One, or whatever DAM / Raw Processor only for specific shoots where I want to do edits etc.

 

[Slartibart]

Ahh, OK, I was under the impression that if you were just editing RAW images within Photos, it kept them as just versioned data modifications, rather than flattening out JPEGS, unless you tried to transfer the edit to another app.

I am not sure wether, if you stay inside Apple Photos and use only its tools, immediately a JPEG is saved. I am sure that any other "external" app has to on iOS/iPadOS.
Even if Photos on iDevices would write just some .xml file with the modification steps - on export to ImageCapture a JPEG is generated.

IMHO the main stumbling block seems to be the app specific storage container on iDevices "versus" the access to all data under MacOS. Plus the fact that the only option to access data within the specific storage container is the sync mechanism provided by Apple via iCloud.

1. Use Smart Folders on the Image Library drive to filter for all images, camera specific searches, tags, etc - basically everything a DAM would do in terms of viewing images

Well, Spotlight search for EXIF data works for JPEG, but not necessarily for other image formats.
Of course you can open a terminal and use
mdls /where/ever/it/is/stored/mypic.jpg
to see what meta data is accessible - and you can do this to check for the formats which are relevant for you.
Especially when you use an iPhone and shoot Apple RAW/Pro RAW. But then again Apple seems to generate JPEGs for these on the fly.

1. Add folder actions / hazel workflows to the iOS device specific folders, that create optimised preview versions of all images (in all subfolders) added to the folders, which are saved out to a separate "Optimised" folder.

At this point: while you can shoot “RAW + JPEG” in a camera (which will eliminate the need to generate previews) - is there an equivalent on iPhone when shooting RAW/Pro RAW?
Of course you can use sips in the terminal to generate JPEGs from multiple RAWs like a folder full of Canon RAW 2.x files:
for i in *.CR2; do sips -s format jpeg $i --out "${i%.*}.jpg"; done.

But there is no really covenient way provided by the Finder to inspect/display e.g. all photos from 2019, isn’t it?
Even if you use the mdls-conform meta data in a Raw Query to find them with Spotlight - no nice visual “catalogue” AFAIK.

Minor additional observation: due to the fact that the Finder generates previews when needed, opening a folder with many photos can take a moment. Of course this depends on image parameters like format or resolution - but using a DAM usually gives immediate previews.

1. Sync that image folder back to the iOS device with iTunes / Finder.

Oh, this reveals a somewhat different/additional scenario: so basically you want to move all the photos from an iPhone shoot to the Mac, do the preselection under MacOS, and then store one copy of the resulting set back to the iPhone/whatever iDevice? (The final storage of the images in the file system is a given.)

Maybe… M.A.Y.B.E... 😆… it is much easier and convenient to use Apple’s Photos for most steps till here and create a few Applescript scripts which will save/export the final, selected images from Apple Photos into the folder structure you want on your Mac? Apparently Photos supports Applescript (to see all Applescript commands provided by Photos open the Script Editor app, go to File -> Open Dictionary and select Apple Photos).
Additionally transfer the final selection of images into Photos on the iDevice (or copy them to the Apple Files storage container; no sync from Mac Photos to iOS Photos!).
Afterwards You could simply delete all photos within Apple Photos on your Mac.

Or generate low resolution images using sips which you keep in whichever macOS program (might be Apples Photos 🤪) and use another Applescript to find, display and/or open the full format original of the selected photo(s).



TL;DR:

• Transfer photos from iDevice to Mac via Apple’s Photos (AP).
• Delete and select images in AP on Mac.
• Use Applescript to copy and/or export these images into folders on the Mac. Afterwards delete images from Mac Apple Photos.
• Transfer these images back to the Files app on iDevice/into Apples Photos on iDevice.
• use DAM with file system support to manage images. In case of no file system support automatically create low resolution version for DAM. Use Applescript in DAM to link back to original in file system.

1. Use Capture One, or whatever DAM / Raw Processor only for specific shoots where I want to do edits etc.

How’s the Applescript support of Capture One? 🤓


nota bene: just "bouncing off" ideas/comments. The workflow you described will work I think.

 

[mattspace]

IMHO the main stumbling block seems to be the app specific storage container on iDevices "versus" the access to all data under MacOS. Plus the fact that the only option to access data within the specific storage container is the sync mechanism provided by Apple via iCloud.

Well that's the question, does import in Photos directly do the same thing as iCloud Photo Library. Aperture can import directly from iOS, and in the days of iPhoto for iOS, IIRC Aperture & iPhoto on the Mac had that sort of parity.

Well, Spotlight search for EXIF data works for JPEG, but not necessarily for other image formats.
Of course you can open a terminal and use
mdls /where/ever/it/is/stored/mypic.jpg
to see what meta data is accessible - and you can do this to check for the formats which are relevant for you.
Especially when you use an iPhone and shoot Apple RAW/Pro RAW. But then again Apple seems to generate JPEGs for these on the fly.

If your camera's raw image format is recognised by the system (which most are) then you can search for pretty much any EXIF, and your preview generation is super-quick. At least for me, the 36mp D800 images render dozens of icons in a couple of seconds, and I have QuickLook image caching disabled, so all previews are rendered in realtime.

At this point: while you can shoot “RAW + JPEG” in a camera (which will eliminate the need to generate previews) - is there an equivalent on iPhone when shooting RAW/Pro RAW?
Of course you can use sips in the terminal to generate JPEGs from multiple RAWs like a folder full of Canon RAW 2.x files:
for i in *.CR2; do sips -s format jpeg $i --out "${i%.*}.jpg"; done.

In my experience, Finder renders any RAWs I've dealt with in realtime.

But there is no really covenient way provided by the Finder to inspect/display e.g. all photos from 2019, isn’t it?
Even if you use the mdls-conform meta data in a Raw Query to find them with Spotlight - no nice visual “catalogue” AFAIK.

Yes, it's just a matter of creating a Smart Folder, and setting up / fine tuning the search criteria.

Minor additional observation: due to the fact that the Finder generates previews when needed, opening a folder with many photos can take a moment. Of course this depends on image parameters like format or resolution - but using a DAM usually gives immediate previews.

Finder actually caches every image icon it generates in the Quicklook Cache, so it shouldn't require much time after the first. In my case, on my system, Finder creates icon previews in a directory of ~5000+ images (most of which are 36mp .nef files) faster than I can meaningfully scroll through while still being able to review them visually.

Oh, this reveals a somewhat different/additional scenario: so basically you want to move all the photos from an iPhone shoot to the Mac, do the preselection under MacOS, and then store one copy of the resulting set back to the iPhone/whatever iDevice? (The final storage of the images in the file system is a given.)

The way I do things currently, I shoot an image on the iPhone, it's the full size of the image from that camera. I ingest it to Aperture, Aperture moves the fullsize image to disk, and wipes it from the phone. Aperture generates a preview, according to its settings:

...because the share XML is set to Always, that then feeds into iTunes sync, so when you sync an iOS device in iTunes, and choose to sync photos back to the iOS device, which I do by having an Aperture Album that is a smart Album based on the device's camera EXIF, the Preview sized version goes back onto the phone.

So you effectively get all the images the phone has shot staying on the device, but at reduced size.

Maybe… M.A.Y.B.E... 😆… it is much easier and convenient to use Apple’s Photos for most steps till here and create a few Applescript scripts which will save/export the final, selected images from Apple Photos into the folder structure you want on your Mac?

The referenced library part of things is the non-negotiable part of it, which is from what I understand problematic with Photos for Mac.

How’s the Applescript support of Capture One? 🤓

Good enough that you can probably do most things, but after Aperture, I'm not keen to invest too deeply in any one DAM-based solution.

nota bene: just "bouncing off" ideas/comments. The workflow you described will work I think.

The ideas are appreciated